Relativity Theory and Philosophers

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Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 19th, 2011, 3:14 pm 

Richard Feynman is one of my heroes. He explained so many things to me, so clearly, that I owe him a great debt. However, there are a few of his conclusions that I would like to comment on, from my own perspective. The philosophical implications of relativity is one of these.

Feynman did not like philosophers very much (ironically, his son decided at one point to be one).

In his “Lectures on Physics” (II-16-1) he devotes an entire section to the topic, with the title of “Relativity and the philosophers”. Among other things, he says:

When this idea descended upon the world, it caused a great stir among philosophers, particularly the "cocktail-party philosophers," who say, "Oh, it is very simple: Einstein's theory says all is relative!" In fact, a surprisingly large number of philosophers, not only those found at cocktail parties (but rather than embarrass them, we shall just call them "cocktail-party philosophers"), will say, "That all is relative is a consequence of Einstein, and it has profound influences on our ideas." In addition, they say "It has been demonstrated in physics that phenomena depend upon your frame of reference."
…………
There is another school of philosophers who feel very uncomfortable about the theory of relativity, which asserts that we cannot determine our absolute velocity without looking at something outside, and who would say,

"It is obvious that one cannot measure his velocity without looking outside. It is self-evident that it is meaningless to talk about the velocity of a thing without looking outside; the physicists are rather stupid for having thought otherwise, but it has just dawned on them that this is the case. If only we philosophers had realized what the problems were that the physicists had, we could have decided immediately by brainwork that it is impossible to tell how fast one is moving without looking outside, and we could have made an enormous contribution to physics."

These philosophers are always with us, struggling in the periphery to try to tell us something, but they never really understand the subtleties and depths of the problem.
……….
One of the consequences of relativity was the development of a philosophy which said,

"You can only define what you can measure! Since it is self-evident that one cannot measure a velocity without seeing what he is measuring it relative to, therefore it is clear that there is no meaning to absolute velocity. The physicists should have realized that they can talk only about what they can measure."
……….
“Finally, there is even a philosophy which says that one cannot detect any motion except by looking outside. It is simply not true in physics. True, one cannot perceive a uniform motion in a straight line, but if the whole room were rotating we would certainly know it, for everybody would be thrown to the wall - there would be all kinds of "centrifugal" effects. That the earth is turning on its axis can be determined without looking at the stars, by means of the so-called Foucault pendulum, for example.”



I can certainly feel Feynman’s frustration with some philosophers, talking down to him, without understanding the essence of the relativity theory and the process of acquiring knowledge about natural phenomena.

However, the derisive tone in which he is talking about philosophers in general may reinforce an elitist and dangerous attitude of dismissing all philosophy (and philosophers) as ignorant and stupid.

Feynman hastens to add his own philosophical comments and I could not agree more with what he says:

“What, then, are the philosophic influences of the theory of relativity? If we limit ourselves to influences in the sense of what kind of new ideas and suggestions are made to the physicist by the principle of relativity, we could describe some of them as follows.

The first discovery is, essentially, that even those ideas which have been held for a very long time and which have been very accurately verified might be wrong. It was a shocking discovery, of course, that Newton's laws are wrong, after all the years in which they seemed to be accurate. Of course it is clear, not that the experiments were wrong, but that they were done over only a limited range of velocities, so small that the relativistic effects would not have been evident. But nevertheless, we now have a much more humble point of view of our physical laws - everything can be wrong!

Secondly, if we have a set of “strange” ideas, such as that time goes slower when one moves, and so forth, whether we like them or do not like them is an irrelevant question. The only relevant question is whether the ideas are consistent with what is found experimentalIy. In other words, the “strange ideas” need only agree with experiment, and the only reason that we have to discuss the behavior of clocks and so forth is to demonstrate that although the notion of the time dilation is strange, it is consistent with the way we measure time.

Finally, here is a third suggestion which is a little more technical but which has turned out to be of enormous utility in our study of other physical laws or, more specifically, to look for the ways in which the laws can be transformed and leave their form the same. When we discussed the -theory of vectors, we noted that the fundamental laws of motion are not changed when we rotate the coordinate system, and now we learn that they are not changed when we change the space and time variables in a particular way given by the Lorentz transformation. So this idea of studying the patterns or operations under which the fundamental laws are not changed has proved to be a very useful one.”



However, I would like to go beyond the strictly utilitarian approach and venture into areas of pure speculation. We will never intuitively understand and accept relativity, because, due to our limitations in size, speed and senses, we lack the personal experience with the relativistic world.

Yet, we understand it intellectually, mathematically, and we would like somehow to relate to it emotionally. We know that it means something, but for our lives we can not tell what that something is.

The only thing we can do is speculate.

What kind of reality are we talking about when we accept the relative nature of space and time, mass and energy? What happened to objective reality we assumed to exist, independently of our minds? The very foundation of science had been (until Einstein) the assumption that there is a world out there, with its objective reality, unchanging laws and all we had to do is find out how it was put together.

We fancied ourselves as the curious tinkerer who stumbles upon an intriguing machine and, by studying its workings and the visible parts of the mechanism, wants to understand how it functions and what its purpose is.

We could not approach this task without the assumption that the machine is always the same: what was true yesterday is still true today; what was true for me it is also true for everyone else. These were the absolutes we expected from the subject of our investigation.

And then suddenly Einstein comes along and tells us that we were all wrong, there are no absolutes, what appears to one person, may look completely different to another, it all depends on how and from where we look at things.

Or did Einstein say that? Did he abolish all the absolutes in our universe, or demolished some, left some others and created new ones?

If there are still absolutes in the universe after Einstein finished with it then, maybe, we ‘worshipped’ the wrong ‘gods’ (absolutes) and now we have to recognize our mistake and start paying homage to the true ‘gods’ instead?
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby CanadysPeak on December 19th, 2011, 7:16 pm 

Alf,

While I also love to read Feynmann, I think it helpful to realize that Einstein did not "discover" relativity. Galileo had long since written about that. Einstein stands above the crowd because he had the chutzpah to synthesize all the musings of Poincarre, Lorentz, Bernstein, et alia into a bold statement of mathematics. Somewhere in his writings (who remembers anything anymore unless I have a picture of it around my neck?), Einstein cautioned against applying the "All is relative" philosophy outside of Physics.

Thank you for the fine summary. I enjoy your posts.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 19th, 2011, 7:30 pm 

CanadysPeak,

You are right about it. That is why Einstein would have preferred to call it “Theory of Invariance”.

Besides, we know that not everything is relative.

Our need for consistency in our science demanded that we modify either Newton’s or Maxwell’s equations. Experimental data supported Maxwell, so we modified Newton’s equation by making mass dependant on relative speed (of mass to observer). The inevitable logical consequences we had to face were the length contraction, time dilation, relativity of simultaneity, the speed addition formula, the equivalence of mass and energy , etc., etc.

Even though quantities we believed to be absolute became relative, new quantities were found that proved to be absolute instead. Laws of nature, speed of light, space-time intervals, momentum-energy and even electricity-magnetism were among the new absolutes.

The new world revealed to our mathematical minds looked strange and weird, totally contradicting our common-sense experiences. However, countless experiments with ever-increasing precision all confirmed the new world-view to a doubting humanity.

At the same time, we are also aware of how often our common sense impressions are misleading us into incorrect assumptions (just move one hand from a bucket of hot water, and the other from a bucket of cold water, into a bucket of lukewarm water and see what each hand tells you about ‘hot’ and ‘cold’).

Today, we are reasonably sure that the strange phenomena revealed by Einstein’s relativity theory are a true description of Nature, we only would like to answer one question: what does it mean?
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Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby yadayada on December 19th, 2011, 8:53 pm 

It might be interesting to attempt at this point a parallel between Newton and Plato.

Plato argued repeatedly against Protagoras's subjectivism, yet, he recognized that Heraclitus's insistence on universal motion and the necessarily associated relativism was correct. The problem he faced was the (erroneously) perceived impossibility of knowledge under Heraclitus's philosophy. His solution was to adapt Parmenides's absolutism and Parmenides's logical mechanism of the Principle of Noncontradiction. Plato discovered that if we hold the world frozen for an instance, then all change momentarily disappears, and then the Principle holds true in the empirical world. (the Republic, 456b)

This is equivalent to taking a snapshot, or a time-slice, or a picture of the timeline of the world at point (or event) p. Not bad for an ancient with hardly any logical or mathematical tools.

In the sense of having to fix location, perspective, relation, and time, Plato's absolutism of the visible world is highly limiting. Subsequently, Aristotle incoherently but usefully postulated that this fixed absolute point can be infinitely extended into the concrete world.

Newton was faced with the problem of universally relative directional motion, v, which he instantiated through the invention of the calculus. If I run completely around a circle, my total and average velocity is zero. Although, my instantaneous velocity changes constantly, it can be calculated and measured at any point. At point p, the world is frozen, and I can have measurable velocity, momentum, and energy.

So, Newton tamed Galileo's relativity at a point. The absolutist extension of Newton's equations in both temporal directions is incorrect, but is a locally useful postulate. The block universe is wrong. As the Second Law of Thermodynamics points out, the egg that splattered on the kitchen floor is infinitely unlikely to reconstitute itself in reverse motion.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 19th, 2011, 9:15 pm 

yadayada,

It is interesting that you mentioned Plato in this thread.

In the book I am writing about the fundamental principles of Physics, I wrote the following:

"The progression of scientific thought from the mechanistic, rigid logic (started by Galileo and Newton), to the almost whimsical play with the esoteric concepts of Einstein’s space and time was the most dramatic change science has ever experienced.

During this change we arrived at the limits of our common sense personal experiences and embarked upon a journey that stretched our minds beyond its familiar boundaries. Now we could describe reality only with mathematical equations or visual analogies. We could no longer just describe what we had seen, because we stopped seeing what we were talking about.

One can only be touched by this heroism, this courage of the human spirit. Hidden in this drive to understand was our desire to grow beyond our limitations, have at least a glimpse of what the universe was really like in regions of extreme speeds, forces, masses and energies. In a way this effort can be seen as our age-old quest for a God who knows everything, for whom no secrets exist and nothing is impossible.

We have come full circle since Plato’s cave. After centuries of rejecting Plato’s mysticism, in the name of reason and experience, now we had to admit to ourselves, that the reality we humans can experience is a mere shadow of a much richer and much more complicated universe around us.

If we have a chance to look at an avalanche in progress, we can see that it starts slowly. A shift in the weight distribution of the mass of snow, a softening of rigidity and resistance, a fissure along the length of the field – and slowly it starts to move, tumble, gathering speed as it thunders down the mountain.

So it was with Physics in the 19th century. As more and more knowledge was amassed by busy scientists studying electricity and magnetism, more and more concepts emerged that caused a widening fissure in the body of Newtonian Mechanics.

It was Albert Einstein who gave the final push to the avalanche in modern science. By his Special Theory of Relativity, he forced Physicists to make the leap from the familiar Newtonian world to the frightening uncertainty of special and general relativity. "
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Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby yadayada on December 20th, 2011, 11:38 pm 

ALF wrote: We have come full circle since Plato’s cave. After centuries of rejecting Plato’s mysticism, in the name of reason and experience, now we had to admit to ourselves, that the reality we humans can experience is a mere shadow of a much richer and much more complicated universe around us.

Many mathematicians and theoretical physicists are Platonist, or at least Pythagoreans. The effectiveness of scientific laws is not possible unless nature cooperates by being at least partially logical. That logical portion can be mathematically modeled in terms of Platonic Ideas like mass, momentum, energy, conservation and symmetry, charge, fields, virtual particles, and so on. Feynman was great at attempting to bring some of these to light.

This position is in contrast to the common perception that experience can lead to knowledge, which was rejected by Plato, and later by Hume and Wittgenstein. Personal experience can lead to belief, or even certainty, but induction from experience cannot, on logical bases, lead to knowledge.

The absurd mutual misunderstanding between philosophers and physicists centers on this distinction. 99% of philosophers are entrenched Aristotelians who endlessly defend an indefensible position from attacks by critics who are fashioned as "skeptics". With all of the scientific knowledge notwithstanding, scientists will fall in this feared category.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 22nd, 2011, 9:59 am 

When I was teaching relativity theory in college, I was often asked by my students: “what good is something that I can never experience? Isn’t it cruel to show people a world they will never reach? Show them a world that goes way beyond their abilities to live in and, like in Plato’s cave, be forever doomed to watch its mere shadows flicker on the cave walls?”

So, what would you tell them?
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby CanadysPeak on December 22nd, 2011, 12:43 pm 

ALF wrote:When I was teaching relativity theory in college, I was often asked by my students: “what good is something that I can never experience? Isn’t it cruel to show people a world they will never reach? Show them a world that goes way beyond their abilities to live in and, like in Plato’s cave, be forever doomed to watch its mere shadows flicker on the cave walls?”

So, what would you tell them?


Special or General?
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 22nd, 2011, 5:22 pm 

Special.

General is a hell of a lot more difficult theory, both mathematically (tensor analysis and other good stuff) and conceptually. Definitely a graduate level course at University.

Here is a good story though:

The concept of curvature of space-time is so esoteric, non-intuitive, that very few laymen understand it accurately. Simon Singh tells us an amusing story about Arthur Eddington in his excellent book: “Big Bang”:

Eddington became so closely associated with the theory that the physicist Ludwig Silberstein, who also considered himself an authority on general relativity, once said to Eddington: ‘You must be one of three persons in the world who understands general relativity’. Eddington stared back in silence, until Silberstein told him not to be so modest. ‘On the contrary’ replied Eddington, ‘I am trying to think who the third person is.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby CanadysPeak on December 22nd, 2011, 7:18 pm 

ALF wrote:Special.

General is a hell of a lot more difficult theory, both mathematically (tensor analysis and other good stuff) and conceptually. Definitely a graduate level course at University.

Here is a good story though:

The concept of curvature of space-time is so esoteric, non-intuitive, that very few laymen understand it accurately. Simon Singh tells us an amusing story about Arthur Eddington in his excellent book: “Big Bang”:

Eddington became so closely associated with the theory that the physicist Ludwig Silberstein, who also considered himself an authority on general relativity, once said to Eddington: ‘You must be one of three persons in the world who understands general relativity’. Eddington stared back in silence, until Silberstein told him not to be so modest. ‘On the contrary’ replied Eddington, ‘I am trying to think who the third person is.


So your students have never experienced SR? A pity. They should drop by my shop for an hour. They might not believe it (people always want to make Physics so damn difficult) but they'll see it. I don't understand it, but like pornography, I know it when I see it.

You might try to get Lincoln engaged in your discussion. He's fantastic at explaining relativity.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 22nd, 2011, 7:28 pm 

CanadysPeak wrote:You might try to get Lincoln engaged in your discussion. He's fantastic at explaining relativity.


I had no problem explaining relativity on the mathematical/conceptual level.

It was the philosophical level my students challenged me on.

This is what I told them:

“It is important to understand reality, however strange and alien it appears to be. We need to know that we are not gods, that our job is not to fight, subdue and defeat nature, but to respect it with the same humility an ordinary leaf would respect the tree it belongs to, if leafs were capable of such emotions.”

We may not ever fully live in that world, but we can always sidle up to it, get closer and closer as we see more and more clearly. Maybe our great grandchildren, whizzing about near the speed of light, in their spaceships, will not find time-dilation and length contraction as weird as we do. If you grow up with something, it becomes part of you, you take it for granted.

In the meantime we can, and we do, use these strange laws in our calculations when we are building our comfort and security with newer and newer technologies. We don’t need to fully comprehend a gift from the gods in order to accept it and build it into our lives.

We live in precarious times. Science and scientists have lost the respect of the citizenry, wondering if it was worth it after all? The question of “did we gain more than we lost?” is openly asked and many intelligent and honest people start being nostalgic about the vanished innocent and peaceful “Golden Age”.

I have friends who refuse to own a computer, threw out the TV and VCR from their homes that they built “off the grid”, heating with and cooking on, wood stoves, just like their grandfathers used to.

I do understand their fear of technology, their mistrust of scientists and engineers. I am aware of the self-serving lies, the irresponsible rushing into applications and the smug conceit and condescension many of our scientists treat their fellow citizens with.

I am also aware of the uncountable advantages science gave us – advantages we take for granted and not hesitate for a second to use when in need. Carl Sagan was troubled by this contradiction when, in spite of being an animal-rights advocate, while terminally ill, he took advantage of medical techniques that could never have been developed without experimenting on animals.

The answer, as usual, seems to be sought in the backswing of the pendulum.

The answer, as usual, is wrong.

First of all, there never was a “Golden Age” we can escape back to. Jared Diamond’s magnificent book “The Third Chimpanzee” devotes a whole chapter to the topic of “The Golden Age that never was”.

Second, the culprit is not science and technology, but the way we as a social body collectively use it and allow it to be used. We are all responsible. There is so much greed, hypocrisy and complacency in all of us that unscrupulous parasites thrive in our midst.

Third: we can never put the genie back into its bottle. It is just simply not one of the options. We can’t go back, we can’t unlearn what we know, we can’t just forget our scientific heritage of millennia. Some would remember, some would tempt us with an irresistible bribe of living easier, healthier, longer and soon we would be back where we are now.

So what are we to do?

My advice: “hope for the best”! Hope that enough sanity prevails to see us through this technological adolescence without destroying ourselves and a good chunk of the Planet we live on. Maybe, at great cost to ourselves, we learn how to use the gift of the gods in a responsible way, to the benefit of all, without destroying the world.

If we do, the rewards could be breath taking. If we did not spend most of our energies on making weapons of mass destruction and mindless distractions for both the rich and the poor, then we would have the resources to usher in the age of a real paradise.

We could easily have abundant, cheap and clean energy for all if we focussed on fusion research. We have had practical nuclear fusion for 60 years in our hydrogen bombs. We can liberate the energy, we ‘only’ need to learn how to control it in a safe and sustainable way.

Once we had this energy source, so many things would automatically follow. We could stop using fossil fuels and thus eliminate the major cause of pollution and the savage imperialist wars now being waged in order to rob third world nations of their oil reserves.

We wouldn’t even have to abandon capitalism to solve the class hatred now tearing many nations apart. If no one was hungry, cold, living in fear and poverty, most people would be happy with their lot of comfort and security. Relatively very few people want to live in palaces and mansions and have their private jets to fly about.

Once we cleaned up our act here on Earth, then we could have a new look at the stars and see if we could find a way to visit them? Imagine the thrill you would feel if we could step off this “pale blue dot” and see what is out there?

No stupid ‘reality-show’ could equal the awe and wonder we would feel, if we could rise above and beyond our pitiful limitations, self imposed for millennia.

Since we can’t go back to a “Golden Age” that never was, our only choices seem to be: either self destruction, or a real utopia.

I vote for the second.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby ALF on December 22nd, 2011, 7:51 pm 

Sorry, double post.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby yadayada on December 22nd, 2011, 8:57 pm 

ALF wrote:When I was teaching relativity theory in college, I was often asked by my students: “what good is something that I can never experience? Isn’t it cruel to show people a world they will never reach? Show them a world that goes way beyond their abilities to live in and, like in Plato’s cave, be forever doomed to watch its mere shadows flicker on the cave walls?”

So, what would you tell them?

You're right, that's a difficult question to address in a science class. Physics deals with observations and measurements. I'm a philosophical relativist, so I would explain to them that there is not a single reality, but that reality is relative to the methods of observation. Of course, I would not expect people to understand that, so I would then advise the rejection or complete avoidance of metaphysical explanation as an alternative.
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Re: Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby CanadysPeak on December 23rd, 2011, 7:20 am 

Alf,

I don't think scientists have lost the respect of the common folk just because we think ourselves entitled to question their work. After all, I question the local greengrocer, don't I? I question the police. I question the local Rabbi. Why shouldn't I question an astrophysicist? I still respect them all.
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Relativity Theory and Philosophers

Postby yadayada on December 25th, 2011, 10:40 am 

The question in this thread is: What can the Philosophy of Science offer to help students understand the fundamental shift in geometrical representation of space and time as space-time in Relavity theory?

This question cannot be reduced to explaining the mathematical formalisms of the theory.

It does have something to do with the way we naturally think, and how this natural intuition interferes with accepting a broader, more inclusive idea.

Our natural intuition tells us that space is flat. Our intuition tells us that time is as it appears in our memory -- a segmented string of vignettes of the past. This intuition more-or-less corresponds both to what Platonic realism logically creates and to a Newtonian space and time representation:
Space_1.JPG
R.Penrose, Cycles of Time (2010), p.81
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