Debate over the Physics of Time

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Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby hyksos on July 21st, 2016, 9:36 am 

A Debate Over the Physics of Time

According to our best theories of physics, the universe is a fixed block where time only appears to pass. Yet a number of physicists hope to replace this “block universe” with a physical theory of time.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160719-time-and-cosmology/
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby dandelion on July 21st, 2016, 9:40 pm 

http://pirsa.org/C16016/1
//perimeterinstitute.ca/conferences/time-cosmology
http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?nomobile=1&f=10&t=30884
Thanks, Hyksos.
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby Dave_Oblad on July 22nd, 2016, 8:39 am 

Hi all,

The problem with the Block Model Universe is it assumes an outside view of a completed block. This is like looking at the value Pi (3.1415..) as a whole complete value. The truth is that you can't skip any steps. Therefore the solution requires sequence. So for any given position within the value of Pi, it must have a history in the sequence and the same applies to our position in the sequence of the Universe. From our position, the future doesn't exist yet. Therefore, to understand Time, we must recognize what it means to Exist on the leading edge of the sequence. Thus an Expanding Block Model is a more accurate descriptor of our Universe, where perception is always on the leading edge of the sequence.

If the Universe stopped expanding (sequence).. Time would stop.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby curiosity on August 2nd, 2016, 7:34 pm 

If the Universe stopped expanding (sequence).. Time would stop.


You couldn't have put it more simply than that Dave. "Move your chair to the front of the class."
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby GaryCGibson on October 10th, 2016, 5:06 pm 

I am not especially a fan of the block model. it does seem contingent upon a particular view of the physics of this Universe, that isn't certain. I wrote some of my ideas about alternate viewpoints in Bishop Berkeley/Three Dialogues kind of Socratic method. The Level 4 Multiverse context of Tegmark influenced the following...

“Every possible Universe that could be made to exist does exist, and in an infinite number of variations and permutations from every possible choice and evolution anyone or anything could take. A human soul is spirit and branches off into another Universe appropriate for its thought with each thought it takes. God foreknows every possible Universe that he has created or entails from eternity in all directions.”
“So John there are not an infinite number of me occupying all of these Universes?”
“No the time of each is a non-sequitur. All of the pasts, presents and futures in each of the infinite Universes exists in the eternal now of God. They are like static scenes that come alive when the soul is in any given Universe.”

“Then how could two people share the same Universe for a significant period of time and relativistically travel together.”

“For a human being calculating the mechanics might indeed be quite difficult-even impossibly so. For God though it is nothing.

Consider that the sum over histories of world lines and all possible positions of quantum superpositions before waveform collapse before viewing are apparent phenomena given unto observers. The all-possible positions of a given quantum particle actually correspond to an infinity of Universes where the particle is in a different position. That phenomena occurs for every possible particle and virtual particle in existence.
Necessarily time like spatial quanta is also formed with quantum superposition. Select quanta are given unto every possible time position that are for-themselves spatial locations.”

“The Multiverse is static with a contingent existence fully actualized within God's eternal now. For human observers however time and space seem to be in motion relativistically as if membranes from higher dimensions were passing through one another creating the appearance of time and spatial expansion?”
“That's one way of looking at it Char. I realized that even the traditional approach with waveform collapse making a steady state of matter rather than virtual energy material Universe tends to leave one philosophically wondering if they can see farther from the mountaintop through the fog. Remember that some of these points about subjectivity and the Schrödinger wave (function)...

The wave-function could be a state of mind, of subjective experience, yet it might be a problem of the criterion, that is within an Everettian interpretation mind or experience moves through a multidimensional matrix. I think that is not entirely inconsistent with the Copenhagen interpretation epistemology viewing matter and energy through a glass darkly with partial certainty.

Wave-particle superposition is a paradigm of contemporary thought about how the quantum fields exist that could be inaccurate, so the Copenhagen paradigm could be incapable of determining what's what though useful in the standard model field for working with matter. That would comprise a philosophical and pragmatic difference of depth.

There are innumerable forms the fundamental field could be in to allow the appearance of quanta and space-time to exist along with faster-than-light distance interval transcendence. People naturally think of circles and spherical packing with a unitary field shaking or vibrating to emit one-dimensional membranes building up to large quanta. All that minimalist quanta remains tied into the the unitary field and might be regarded as complex illusions that are yet real for building up to a level where self-awareness occurs experiencing the steady state temporal field as real. Transcending experimentally to deeper micro levels through space-time to forms of quanta outside of time individually as quanta may let innumerable relativity breaking phenomenal observations to occur.

Space membranes may have irregular shapes that when intersecting provide irregular rates of apparent time passage. They may alternatively have regular shapes that when intersecting or passing through other membranes provide an apparent smooth rate of expansion of space-time resembling that of dark energy. Dark energy is regarded preponderantly as responsible for the increasing rate of expansion of the space of the observable Universe. Cosmologists think the rate of expansion of space and time will continue until a big rip occurs when the Universe is 64 billion years old whereat it will cease to exist, failing to draw social security benefits itself from an economics expanded with federal reserve zero interest loans.

Membranes capable of being an entire Universe when intersecting at various angles or portions contacting must be of very large size one might think. Size is relative thought in a completely empty void a one inch membrane might as well be a mile. Only in relation to other membranes or things could comparative quantification occur.

If a membrane is not of zero dimensions simultaneously existing yet not existing-logically somewhat absurd except perhaps for quanta in some form of superposition even with a timeless, eternal form, then it must be made of something. In a field particles arise of various sizes as energy wave packets. A membrane though is regarded as some kind of fundamental entity without parts. Irreducible membranes of one dimension even seem less probable than super-positioned zero-dimensional membranes that take one dimensions with interference, observation and waveform collapse or simply the word of God.

A membrane of n-dimensions may be a quantified field in the mind of God initially structured in a spiritual sense that with interference and intersections collapses from the superpositions of the mind of God into one-dimensional and concatenated dimensional forms. Recombinant dimensional membranes perhaps with an unknown forms of charge-perhaps multi-tensorial charges could build up super-dimensions with greater magnitudes than other membranes.

The shape of the Universe spatially speaking was and probably is of interest to cosmologists. It could have been toroidal, spherical etc. Perhaps there is no clearly definable shape for a Universe at the leading, expanding edges whereat it fades off into a nothingness emptier than nothing itself. It may simply be an apparent Universe with apparent yet not real space that is instead a concatenated and apparent effect for observers from one-dimensional membranes moving through one another. When one membrane passes along the axis of another it may appear as an acceleration of spatial expansion to local observers.

Any sort of turn or deflection for a membrane's shape would require some irregularity of force acting at that place. The presence or absence of planar deformation, or of spherical deformation if a singularity, indicates the presence of a heterodox field or membrane element. Maybe some theorists regard individuated endowments of force as fundamental brains with the optimal shape for a brane corresponding to the configuration of dimensions in which it coheres. Dimensional brains thus appear to be theoretically embedded within a Chinese puzzle box of additional dimensional branes.

In evolutionary biology there is an argument that mutation is the primary agent for change rather than natural selection. Mutation though is a way of saying change of an individual from an existing pattern. The capacity for mutability is an implicit aspect of being. God may be changeless and eternal, yet spacetime beings change perpetually. Mutation however is regarded as occurring to living beings rather than to inanimate molecular forms. Complexity in biological forms allows for a suggestion of mutation from an existing pattern whereas for geological formations talus slopes for example are said to evolve under the influence of the second law of thermodynamics and entropy with the increase of disorder. Can dimensional membranes be thought of as mutable or are they just too simple even to be considered to evolve?

Relationships of membranes that change in a field of all possible membranes existing might be regarded as evolving. Evolution occurs in the space-time changes for observers living in a nexus of interacting membranes. For God hosting the membrane field, nothing changes in a sense. The membrane's position and motion follow His will. Intellect of observers changes too, yet as in a level 4 Multiverse intellect is an apparent phenomena embedded in the interacting membrane fields. It is pre-determined though able apparently to modify energy-matter forms in a small way within a space-time manifold. God configured the complete field from eternity with space-time membranes comprising contingent ontology-for-others.”

“It does then seem that the construction of membranes is a logical place to base the construction of Universes. Universes are in one descriptive paradigm extended membranes differentiated with field pluralism, waves and particle quanta.

A one-dimension membrane singularity may be the apex of a locally timeless cloud super-positioned as virtual wave-particle energy from an unbounded Unconditional. In an initial waveform collapse from the virtual cloud of super-positioned particles the zero-dimensional singularity becomes one dimensional expanding its membrane energy with four dimension vectors.

Membrane energy inherently embody all-possible Universe fields, particles and space-time. As the singularity and hyperinflation occurs for an instant in a second field energy endowments and space time expansion transpires producing a standard and eventually observable Universe for sentient beings embedded with it.

I had wondered about the role of black holes and gravity more so than dark energy. Consider the point that gravity affects all matter and virtual particles associated with it bringing them all to a relative center where none break free. If gravity was a field transcending all matter, and if the strong force binding quarks together, and electromagnetism too along with the weak force binding molecules together were pushed and pulled by gravitons within a dark hole and even a naked singularity they would need to be wave-particles with some mass and perhaps negative charge still bounded by the speed of light at which gravity observably occurs. Gravity cannot transcended the space-time dimensions wherein it exists as a field phenomena probably able to bind to quarks or the strong force field itself for some reason perhaps as simple as polarity tensors of the field in which they occur.

It does seem to me John that a preferable account for the treatment of gravity on mass-energy is that instead of collapsing it to an infinite reduction to singularity as an entity without gravity itself-a contradiction, for gravity as a field phenomena must be a contingent field too rather than a non-contingent one. Even if it seems to bend space-time there are numerous ways to explain that besides space-time-dimensions becoming deformed. For instance a time dimension could receive interference from the presence of mass and simply slow or dilate the mass motion through space in a proportionate way bringing about the appearance of spatial effect.

I believe though that gravity conforms mass into a larger mass construction comprising something like a local curved membrane of energy in-itself. Mass energy may be embedded within the gravitational field itself as part of a charged object different from those normally experienced in space-time. While they may potentially be a very large power source, they may also process mass-energy through to a basic dimensional membrane. The receiving membrane would expand space or time itself as the case may be while the remaining local curvature of space where the black hole formed could be compared to a bullet hole in a piece of metal left after the mass passed on through.”

“A potential useful insight. Maybe gravitons are virtual particles of a membrane dragging mass through black holes back to membranes. I should say that I have been saving a bit of good news though. “
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby hyksos on October 15th, 2016, 4:54 pm 

Consider that the sum over histories of world lines and all possible positions of quantum superpositions before waveform collapse before viewing are apparent phenomena given unto observers. The all-possible positions of a given quantum particle actually correspond to an infinity of Universes where the particle is in a different position. That phenomena occurs for every possible particle and virtual particle in existence.

The wave-function could be a state of mind, of subjective experience, yet it might be a problem of the criterion, that is within an Everettian interpretation mind or experience moves through a multidimensional matrix.

Everett Many Worlds. It's the last, desperate attempt to fit the universe into an objective paradigm : a machine where "gear-turns-gear" and everything is in its place at a particular time.

The whole mental trick here is to admit to ourselves that universe does not act like that.
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby Dave_Oblad on October 15th, 2016, 5:17 pm 

Hi Hyksos,

Hyksos wrote:The whole mental trick here is to admit to ourselves that universe does not act like that.

Or it does! The issue is that we have two kinds of Time. The Quantum Time has no Duration, so it gets a crappy label like "Wave Collapse". Our Macro version of Time is a side effect of an Expanding Reality with us living on the growing 3D surface. (Arrow of Time and Duration effects)

How would one measure a Quantum event when Temporal Duration doesn't exist in the Quantum? Ever walk through a Mirror Fun House? Which version of you is the real one? Quantum Reflections is a very likely phenomenon. It's the old-school brand of Physics that causing all the problems. With the right Model, you get everything we see and a lot more, including the Gears of Causation.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby hyksos on October 16th, 2016, 2:40 am 

With the right Model, you get everything we see and a lot more, including the Gears of Causation.

But do you really have a Model ?

I'll need more precise language than "Expanding Reality". Did you mean something like an expanding 4-dimensional manifold?
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby Dave_Oblad on October 16th, 2016, 12:35 pm 

Hello Hyksos,

As you know, my Model is based on a Cellular Automaton. It starts with one cell because there was no previous cell. Once a cell is in place, it has inputs and outputs that go nowhere, like nerve endings. Exposed IO (input/output) prompts the growth of a new attached Cell and it Grows in 4D. 3D doesn't work or it would define a 2D growing surface plane, like a regular balloon.

In 4D we can have a Balloon with a 3D surface that expands (grows) by adding more cells to the exposed Outer Surface. At first, the Information passed on these IO had no pattern, was just noise. The Big Bang, massive chaos. Since there is s specific set of rules for processing Data through a Cell, patterns emerged. The Universe cooled off as chaos gave into order.

This is the 4D Quantum Reality where Time doesn't Exist, just 4 bi-directional axis exists for data channels over distance, as such distances constantly increase due to new exposed surface growth. Eventually, self reinforcing patterns emerge as the first fields. The interplay among these fields eventually lead to the emergence of base particles.. Preons. These grew into more complex patterns, such as Quarks and eventually Matter appeared.

However, such Particles are a progression of Geometries. Such Geometries that interfered with its own previous Geometry automatically destroy themselves. The only Geometries that can survive are those that Build upon the previous states of Geometry. Thus Matter and Particles become a surface feature that relies on its History and our Macro Time emerges. The Arrow of Time in the direction of Expansion and New Growth. Degrees of Freedom are based on depth of History. An individual Preon has no knowledge of Direction or Velocity. It gets this information from the natural progression that is based on its own personal History.

So, in my opinion, we exist on the expanding 3D surface of the True Universe. Think about the inflating Balloon Model, but instead of pumping air into it.. imagine new layers of rubber are being applied. That Matter acts more like a persistent Stain, progressing itself to the newly grown surface as the Universe expands. This poses a problem for Matter as far as lateral velocity is concerned in 3D. Matter can't move faster than new surface is laid down. This is observed as the Speed of Light. Because of this limited growth rate, we get another interesting aspect called Duration. So our Macro Time has both the aspects of Arrow of Time and Duration between Measurements.

The Quantum doesn't have an Arrow of Time nor an aspect of Duration. It also doesn't have an aspect of fixed Scale. Scale is derived from History and Neighbors.. meaning that while a Planck Cell cannot be sub-divided.. it has no forced Size of Scale, except as provided by its History. It is for this reason that Voids grow more rapidly (by Scale expansion) than Galaxies or clouds of Matter where Scale Growth is inhibited by the Geometry of Matter connecting layers of History together.

My favorite Model of the Quantum closely resembles the Human Brain, with massive parallel processing and redundancies of interconnected networks. This redundancy also includes the Mirror Fun House effect making it near impossible to call a single particle a source having a distinct location and velocity. A so-called single particle can have multiple copies of itself in many simultaneous locations, directions and velocities. What we see is the average. I suppose the reflections of each other are collapsed when such a particle (or copy) interacts with something. Else we would be up to our butts in extra particles.

I'm sorry, I'd like to continue.. but not feeling well. I hope I got the idea across adequately.

I wanted to get into the self-repair mechanisms of Matter and Clock Dilation.. perhaps later, when I feel better.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)

Ps. Please excuse any typos above, not up to my usual 25 pass proofing.
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby hyksos on October 17th, 2016, 1:07 am 

Funny that you should mention it. I was just working on how a 4D cellular automata grid would interact with itself.

Here are some interesting points about this. For an individual cell, there are 81 neighbors. This is obtained by 34 = 81 You probably already know how this is derived.

As we know from CAs (in any dimension) you can make them so they never destroy information. It turns out that any such CA which does not "destroy" information, will necessarily also be reversible. Both properties are seen in Quantum Mechanics. First, you cannot destroy information (see Hawking versus Susskind, black hole information paradox yadda-yadda-yadda). Second, notice that quantum mechanics says forward time can be substituted for backwards time. This is exactly the 'reversible' property of cellular automata. (Well, for those who are reversible that is.).

Here is the most interesting point...

We know from work in reversible CA on 2D grids that they "grow really fast" from an initial Garden-of-Eden grid state. Everyone who has worked with them has noticed this. They expand away from the starting cells very quickly.

Summarizing, we notice four properties. 1. Does not destroy information. 2. Is time-reversible. 3. Grows/expands quickly. 4. can form "gliders" that transmit information across the grid. Analogy being fundamental particles that transmit energy across space.

There are just too many coincidences to ignore.
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby Natural ChemE on October 17th, 2016, 2:47 am 

hyksos » October 17th, 2016, 12:07 am wrote:Here is the most interesting point...

We know from work in reversible CA on 2D grids that they "grow really fast" from an initial Garden-of-Eden grid state. Everyone who has worked with them has noticed this. They expand away from the starting cells very quickly.

Summarizing, we notice four properties. 1. Does not destroy information. 2. Is time-reversible. 3. Grows/expands quickly. 4. can form "gliders" that transmit information across the grid. Analogy being fundamental particles that transmit energy across space.

There are just too many coincidences to ignore.

Just so ya know, all four of the points are purely selection bias. You've got (1) and (2) automatically by choosing to talk about only reversible cellular automata, and then since (3) and (4) aren't true in general, I'm assuming that you're selectively considering only the cases in which they are. So, all four points are just selections. As a counter-example, the 4-D version of Rule Set #0 doesn't have any of those properties.

If you want to think about something trippy, Rule Set #110 and its reflection, Rule Set #124, are both Turing-complete despite being simplistic and 1-dimensional. And since any cellular automata can be computed by a Turing machine, all cellular automata - including those 4-D cellular automata - are mappable to 1-D cellular automata. So, a 4-D cellular automata can't ever have a behavior that isn't in 1-D.
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Re: Debate over the Physics of Time

Postby hyksos on October 17th, 2016, 3:42 am 

And since any cellular automata can be computed by a Turing machine, all cellular automata - including those 4-D cellular automata - are mappable to 1-D cellular automata. So, a 4-D cellular automata can't ever have a behavior that isn't in 1-D.

It is only through an immense amount of pain and engineering can you make a 1D totalistic rule 'Turing complete' in the sense that it can write to memory space and 'replay those instructions' so written there. I don't doubt such a monstrosity could be constructed, and hence, by some twisted extension 'realize' every other rule in higher dimensions. But the loss of elegance is fairly extreme.

It is definitely not the case that there is some direct, elegant translation of any 4D rule down into a simple 1D rule. That should be trivial to prove, due to the connectivity of "neighbors" in higher dimensions.

But yes, any universal computing device can 'emulate' any others, including ones far more powerful. If you give me enough paper and pencils, I can use a hand calculator to 'emulate' the Titan supercomputer at Oak Ridge.
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