Can you explain this?

[BadgerJelly]

Salvia takes you to heaven or hell ... the active ingredient is DMT as I have mentioned.

I will take DMT in the future because I have wanted to for a long time. In Peru is the best place because I know it is something that is set up for foreigners under the care of a shaman who guarantees a trip whereas in the native tribes the way it is taken a trip is not always expected.

I thought it was something akin to weed?

Not at all. DMT is the most powerful psychedelic known to man. Basically you go to heaven or hell and have vivid visions and internal experiences from talking to your ego in the form of a snake to meeting several angels ... or whatever symbols your memories try to attack to the experience. Out of body experiences are also quite common and there are comparisons to alien abduction and many other "supernatural" experiences. DMT explains them all.

Remember our brain has DMT sat right at its centre.

Curiosity - I am not looking for a source of DMT or natural drugs ... I have mentioned I will try DMT to compare because if I have a very similar experience then I will know DMT was likely the cause or partial cause of the experience.

It is not possible I could have inhaled anything like you mention because I know the amount needed to inhale is quite a lot and not a pleasant thing to do.

What I can rely on is that my thoughts and actions effect my brain chemistry as does my intake of nutrients.
That is what I have to work with and I hope I get lucky and find a pattern that can help.

mbturtle - I'll look into it more when I can. Glad you mentioned it. Migraines are something I have not really put too much thought into regarding what happened. In my family most of us suffer with problems on our left side (shoulder/neck). I had a stiff neck a few months back and had an amazing massage that made me realise the extent of the physical problem. Lots of tension there is certainly a factor in what causes migraines (this woudl be the stress anxiety factor I guess).

Too many things are fascinating!

[moranity]

the active ingredient of salvia is not DMT, the active ingredient is salvinorin A, to quote wikipedia:
"Salvinorin A is the main active psychotropic molecule in Salvia divinorum, a Mexican plant which has a long history of use as an entheogen by indigenous Mazatec shamans. Salvinorin A is considered a dissociative exhibiting atypically psychedelic effects.

It is structurally distinct from other naturally occurring hallucinogens (such as DMT, psilocybin, and mescaline) because it contains no nitrogen atoms, hence it is not an alkaloid (and cannot be rendered as a salt) but a terpenoid."

[BadgerJelly]

My mistake. Ayahuasca is the DMT source I should have said. I was falsely under the impression salvia plants contained DMT too because most plants do.

Thank you for the correction :)

This is a comment made about the similar effects :

They are similar in the aspect that they both tear you from reality very quickly and bring you to someplace very foreign for a short period of time, but how they do so could not be more different..

My concern is the amines because they are simple and in our blood right now.

I am starting to think that only DMT causes psychosis whereas other psychoactive drugs merely instigate the release of DMT from the pineal gland ... nothing to back this up yet just an idea I am considering that could be utter nonsense.

[moranity]

i don't know what the policy of the site is towards discussion of psychelic beliefs is, i for one see nothing wrong with discussing such things and find them facinating, maybe if a mod approves? we could start a thread on the philosophical consequences of the psychedelic experience, that would be great, but i do mean discussing methods and effects, as the effects of psychelics are very varied, so that one cannot generalise, for example DMT seems to regularly induce visions of the multidimensional elves who dwell at the bottom of the universe, to paraphrase Terence McKenna. While something like ibogain will induce (in the majority of users) visions of a vast building containing rooms which contain scenes of past traumatic effects. Also, another problem is that many of the "experts" in the field are, like Mr McKenna, possibly quite deranged.

[curiosity]

you most likely still have a long hard road to travel If you want to solve this problem BadgerJelly, I'm pleased that you are well ahead of me in your search and have obviously already researched the remote possibility that I offered up. I admit that I only watched one clip on this subject, but the guy who smoked the salvia was in tears one moment, and laughing the next, his first words when he came down were that it was amazing and he wanted to go straight back there. as I said...It was long shot but if you leave no stone unturned you will get there in the end. If your experience was not brought about by unknowingly ingesting something then this is going to be complicated. The strange thing is, that had you ingested dmt it would have had no effect. If you really do want to try dmt just to test its effect against the effect you experienced,I suggest you try a short break in Amsterdam. you could have it government tested for purity and as long as you don't test it in the street you dont have to worry about men in blue uniforms wanting to throw you in jail. I can guarantee that you will love Amsterdam. I certainly do.

[BadgerJelly]

Curosity - Our body NATURALLY has DMT in it!! That is my point. IF I managed somehow to realise it internally then its VERY significant. There is no way I could have taken it by accident. Maybe it wasn't DMT but at the moment it is the most likely explanation I have that doesn't fly off into metaphysics.

moranity - I can generalise because what everyone sees is different BUT that is dependent upon what Jung would term archetypes or to a lesser extent symbols.

I think deranged is VERY harsh. The guy just says what he experienced but I would say his interpretation is ill founded ... I have not really read anything about his accounts to be honest but I am sure I know what they are because we are talking about what is innately human. Shamanism and a combination of Jung, for me, are the closest things to what humanity is, what we are, what I am.

Anyway moranity what have you experienced? All you have said is you know what I mean. Can you elaborate please?
Hearing about many different experiences no matter how tenuously connected is of help to me.


My stance is I do not see the good looking at this from one angle. Neurology, Evolution, Art History, Psychology, Mnemonics, Endocrine System and probably several other fields too, I feel "NEED" to be used.

[moranity]

moranity - I can generalise because what everyone sees is different BUT that is dependent upon what Jung would term archetypes or to a lesser extent symbols.

BadgerJelly, as i said different plants produce very different visions and some seem to produce distinctly simular visions on the majority of users, i've done maybe 25 years of research on this, mainly theoretical, reading, as a zen buddhist i'm loath to use drugs for spiritual stuff, for me they are just a fun thing, like a good fantasy novel, but giving insights into the way our minds work.
Also, i agree with Don Juan(Carlos Castanada, the teachings of Don Juan), that psychedelics main purpose is to show a person that the world cannot be understood, once you know that they can show you nothing of importance.

I think deranged is VERY harsh. The guy just says what he experienced but I would say his interpretation is ill founded ... I have not really read anything about his accounts to be honest but I am sure I know what they are because we are talking about what is innately human. Shamanism and a combination of Jung, for me, are the closest things to what humanity is, what we are, what I am.

i think Terrence McKenna is great and have a great respect for him, he's a braver person than me, by far, and i love his books and respect his theories, and i don't think he's deranged, i just meant that many of the experts in the field, such as him, Aldus Huxley, William Burroughs are seen as plain mad, which means that many people wont take their opinions and reports seriously.

Anyway moranity what have you experienced? All you have said is you know what I mean. Can you elaborate please?
Hearing about many different experiences no matter how tenuously connected is of help to me.

A buddhist isn't allowed to talk about the contents of experiences had during meditation etc, would you believe?? ya wouldn't think it eh, with the way lots of Gurus go on, but that's the rules, read up on "satori", thats the kind of thing, no distinction between subject and object. But i always end up back to "normal", "in the afterglow of rapture, with the words the rapture left me", but, then again i'm happy not being "enlightened", i like it here

[Gregorygregg1]

Instead of drugs, you might consider seeking a spiritual guide. India has always been a source of spiritual enlightenment. Read about Ram Dass, Majarishi Yogi, Gurdjiff, and Eckert Tolle. Of these, Eckert is the only one still alive, but I'm sure there are others. Psychoactive drugs are unpredictable in their results, and are short-lived, so they can never give more than glimpses into the state you desire. There are paths which may lead you to a more satisfactory result. That you have experienced this state spontaneously may indicate that you have a gift for it, and your journey to enlightenment may be shorter than for others.

[BadgerJelly]

The way I see it there are two techniques and dependent upon the person one is easier to achieve than the other.

All I have done in my life is assess what I think and feel and then question why I do.

Buddhism to me is NOT a religion. It is a school of techniques that better help a person see what they are IF they are willing to love suffering through curiosity and intrigue.

Not what I wanted to hear but I respect your stance on this. I am not looking for confirmation just comparison to better help understand the mechanism (after all trying to understand the mechanism of reality is what got me here in the first place - it may have taken 34 years but it was more than worth the frustration and dead ends I found myself in sometimes).

GG - I will do DMT but I doubt that will be for a year or two. I am my guide no one else is of use unless I choose them to be so. That said I think it would be interesting to learn some techniques and have time in a monastery for a few months. I think it would help me better plan a course of action.

[curiosity]

You have certainly presented all of us with an interesting and debatable subject Badgerjelly. Apart from the occasional cannabis joint (for medicinal purposes only, lol) The only time I have ever experienced a drug stronger than nicotine or caffeine was the time someone spiked my drink with amphetamine, although It was rather a pleasant experience, I have never felt the urge to use amphetamine again. Maybe the desire to reach these higher plains of awareness vary from person to person.
getting back on topic. I think if the suspected dmt came from within your own body then there must have been some kind of trigger that set the wheels in motion. All you have to do now is find that trigger and if you can do so, then you may be able to shoot off to "ultra reality" whenever you like.

[Dave_Oblad]

Hello BJ,

First, I saw a few months ago on TV (Science Channel or Discovery) that someone was researching the God Effect. It started by studying certain people that can work themselves into a spiritual frenzy. Certain Preachers and Experts at Meditation were brought into a lab and were Brain Scanned (MRI?) during such mental exercise. They located key areas of the brain that become highly active when the subject has achieved their oneness with God or the Universe. The next stage was to test what would happen if they artificially induced the effect by Electrical and Sensory stimulation. The test was successful and the volunteer subjects all made claims that sounded almost exactly like the experience you had. If I see the program again, I will pay closer attention so that I can forward some useful information to you.

For myself, I've never had this oneness/connectedness happy feeling personally. But I have had loads of Epiphanies. It starts by asking myself for the answer to some mystery. I dwell on it for a little while then give up and forget about it. Hours, Days and sometimes even Weeks go by and suddenly, without any reason or prompting, the solution/answer just pops into my Conscious Mind. Minor ones happen a lot, like what was the name of that actress in some movie. That's just a delayed response while my subconscious mind was searching for the known answer as a background task.

But major ones, like "What is Existence", or "What is Nothing", or "What is Gravity", or "What is Time/Energy/Matter", have all resulted in a true Epiphany response. When I get one it messes up my whole day or even days. I can't sleep or get it out of my mind until I write it down. So I wrote them all down, in a simplistic fashion, and ultimately put them into a personal Blog. Only then could I know any peace. Problem was.. no audience. That is exactly why I came here. To test these ideas against a knowledgeable audience and perhaps even refine them a bit. So far.. so good.. lol.

Now I am trying to get a handle on Quantum Mechanics so I can fill in some gaps. My final ultimate Quest is a search for the provable existence of what some might call a God Mind. I haven't had any true epiphanies on that subject so far, but I am hopeful.

I don't know if any of this has helped you BJ, but I wish you the best in your personal search for the answers you seek.

Highest regards,
Dave :^)

[BadgerJelly]

Maybe the desire to reach these higher plains of awareness vary from person to person.

I think every human being has a sense there is a way to raise consciousness. I see this as the reason we take psychedelics in the first place.

I guess you have to decide as to what you think the process is. Either it is a extension of consciousness or (what I think) a way to take consciousness and dip into the lesser conscious states that direct/guide the ego.

All you have to do now is find that trigger and if you can do so, then you may be able to shoot off to "ultra reality" whenever you like.

That is the plan. Only thing is I know it cannot be triggered consciously ... hard to explain why I just know this. The game is to trick myself into tricky myself I am tricky myself!! :P Basically the very act of trying will not yield results. Somehow I have to be lucky enough to find the trigger/s AND not try to get where I want to get to.

Anyway! I have lost a bit of weight again and migraines have hit again. Now I just have to exercise and get fit and continue studying and hopefully I will have an experience again and if not then I either have not stressed my body and mind enough or I am wrong about the trigger.

I have been generally avoiding daylight too and have basically gone nocturnal. This is to induce my body to produce more melatonin in the belief it will assist with the possible release of DMT with a more prolonged effect.

Don't get me wrong I know its a VERY long shot but I'd be an idiot not to try this.

[BadgerJelly]

Dave -

Someone else mentioned this too. EVERYONE knows the "Where do I put it!?" experience which is often resolved by giving up or being distracted from the given pursuit.

This is the best way anyone can relate to what I am talking about only over a much longer period of time. Maybe the key is to simply think until you can think no more and THAT is the one and only trigger? I'll be doing that anyway once I am in a slightly better financial situation next year. Until then I'll just study and feed the machine in my head and hope it can do something with it and that I can consciously too.

The worst that can happen is I waste my time enjoying learning about the variety of subjects that intrigue me. WIN WIN!! :)

[BadgerJelly]

HELLO!!

Have been suffering a bout of migraines lately due to me playing with my circadian rhythm; which I am now pretty sure it the key to migraines as it effects our entire physiology.

Anyway if you have migraines I have a suggestion to get rid of them VERY easily. It may sound counter intuitive but direct sunlight actually gets rid of the pain ... this and dousing your head in cold water has worked for me twice now! I also try and imagine the migraine as sweet honey and within 5 minutes the pain subsides ... I can still feel a twinge but ZERO pain. :D

If you suffer from migraines I recommend you try this method :

1) DO NOT LIE DOWN!
2) Walk up and down and think of something pleasant whilst keeping your eyes still and open as much as possible.
3) Once you have done this douse your head in cold water and continue to walk up and down.
4) Sit down with your eyes open and still and stare into brightly lit spaces around you (pref the sky).

Hope this works for some of you.

[BadgerJelly]

Tried this method again and couldn't stop the "migraine".

My problem I believe is a nerve in my neck that triggers the "migraines".

I was in SEVERE pain last night from 02:30AM - approx. 09:30AM and felt like I was losing my mind due to lack of sleep! Have been struggling to get more than 2 hours in one go ...

Going to have a consultation for acupunture tomorrow.

Obviously this is related to my "epiphany" but how much I have no idea? Everyone in my family has problems on their left side - sciatic nerve in my brother and mother, left shoulder/neck inflexability everyone.

So I doubt "migraines" are much more than circumstantial at the moment.

[BadgerJelly]

Oh btw turned out I had a trapped nerve between my second and third vertebrae! Was not a migraine at all!!!

Anyway it appears this woman experienced what I did ... but on a WHOLE different level :

http://www.ted.com/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html#conversation

[Watson]

Glad you are feeling better. Is that the same as a pinched nerve?

[BadgerJelly]

Glad you are feeling better. Is that the same as a pinched nerve?

No idea to be honest. All I know is that from my early teens if I jolted my head half my tongue would go numb and my neck would cease up for a few minutes ... it seems that this has been a long term problem that may have effected my sleep (certainly did last year!).

The pain was pretty hideous and lasted for hours at a time. Made me throw up a few times in the past.

I have no idea how much this had to do with my "episode" (that sounds VERY demeaning to what I am lucky to have experienced!) but if it did then I'd HAPPILY go through it again or worse no question :)

Anyway have just been looking at a couple of things I wrote down around the time of my brain "exploding":

"time is a wonder in the lives of all distance reckons like trunk water"
(no idea where the punctuation was meant to be?)

"Square <> Circle

The illusion man creates only holds for as long as it is associated with actual reality not human reality. In this respect human reality is merely tethered to the overall body of existence.

In a spiritual sense the world humanity perceives IS the ethereal spirit world and reality possesses true "solidity". Matter is of condensed quality not a pure form of motion within time."

To see the beauty in everything is essential to increase happiness."

[toucana]

Hi
The psychologist Abraham Maslow wrote at some length about what he called 'Peak Experiences' which were often characterised as "a kind of transpersonal and ecstatic state, particularly one tinged with themes of euphoria, harmonization and interconnectedness". The main reference is a book he wrote in 1964 called "Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences. It sounds quite similar to what you describe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

Some of the features you describe are also similar to reported experiences of people who were under the influence of hallucinogens, notably Psilocin which is related to Psilocybin, the psychoactive substance found in certain mushrooms. The point of interest here is that this chemical belongs to a group of Indolic hallucinogens that are thought to work by tampering with the operation of an important neurotransmitter called Serotonin. Certain other types of mood altering medications used as antidepressants also work by altering the way in which Serotonin levels are managed in the brain. They are called SSRI (selective Serotonin re-uptake inhibitors).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI

I wonder whether the abrupt changes of diet, climate, and the physiological weight change and an illness which you mention might have helped trigger an sudden euphoric mood change possibly related to an alteration in your Serotonin metabolism at that time ?

[BadgerJelly]

Thanks for that. He looks interesting ... Abraham Maslow.

I have found many similar experiences referred to in shamanism which I believe is the art of inducing this experience purposefully.

I have been trying to get hold of some DMT but have had no luck here so I guess I'll just wait until I go to South America next year and try ayuhuasca and meet some shamans.

I like the term "peak experience" it fits well. Honestly though no words come close to this they merely allude to it if you are VERY good at expressing your feelings and experiences.

All I know is this is the most important thing for the future of humanity ... that may sound dramatic or ridiculous but I believe it to be so and I believe it is inevitable that these sort of experiences will become enmeshed in societies of the future one way or another. In fact they always have been and now it seems possible to increase the scale due to technological advances, better communication systems and and general social/cultural interaction.

[BadgerJelly]

Interesting to go back over these posts I made.

For what it's worth I have pretty much decided to go to Peru and take ayahuasca. Hopefully by the time I get back I'll be able to weigh in on what I experienced compared to my bizarre episode all those years ago ... the very reason for me joining this forum.

Planning my trip for August this year. I was going to go to Guyana, but it just makes sense to do this now. I've been putting it off, or rather too scared to take the plunge! Now it seems like the most sensible and reasonable thing to do whilst before it was more like a desperate kind of childish "longing."

I will make a post about my experience when I return (end of August.) Going to write down as much as a can about the experience so if there is anything anyone can suggest or has questions about let me know.

note: I am neither excited about this experience nor fearful (I am excited to finally do some decent travelling again though!) It is just a matter of pragmatism.

[Brent696]

I know this posting is dated, but
I think you are simply describing what is called Euphoria, you can research the neuro chemicals involved.

Chances are, perhaps during a migraine, you broke a blood vessel in your brain, or something slipped past your blood brain barrier into the cerebrospinal fluid area of the brain. Whichever, there was some form of pressure perhaps on the pineal or pituitary as the master might have effected the pineal, the end result being you experience an over production of serotonin or some such chemical that led to the extended state of euphoria.

This also explains the "post" symptoms as withdrawal. So you have the migraine, sickness, weight loss, then something tweeking in the brain, then eventual withdrawals.

All this does not say that something more "spiritual" or life changing cannot be learned from an altered state of consciousness as we learn reality has as much to do with our perception as it does with that which seem so objective. The universe did not change, and yet you experienced (interpreted) it in a very different way.

On a side note, a description of Buddhism seemed off, it has become a religion as the masses take to a practice of it, at its heart Buddha does not tell people "what" to belief but rather helps people to understand their own brains, how they perceive and process information, subconsciously filling in gaps and such, knowing if you can remove the "preconceived biases" that the brain is susceptible to, truth becomes apparent on its own. Tune the instrument...

Psychedelics, unlike other drugs, do not CHANGE the way one feels but rather they amplify, hence heaven of hell experiences, great care needs to be taken to ones state of mind BEFORE taking the drug. Other drugs can alter chemical uptake, etc, psychedelics reduce resistance in neurological activity, speeding the mind up.

Alien experiences, such as big heads examining people, seem closely related to temporal lobe seizures, seizures could be brought on by ball lightning, static discharges, or simply as they are lying in bed, hence why after being abused by aliens they wake up tucked in. No comment on the butt thing.

[BadgerJelly]

My belief is it was DMT produced naturally. What ever it was my life altered for the better.

Over the past few years I’ve related this experience to others and a few have expressed similar experiences. It was an altered state of consciousness (ASC) something akin to shamanic trances and religious experiences induced by a combination of physical/mental strain.

I’ve given a brief account on this forum just to see if anyone else could offer up useful avenues of investigation. I’ve come to the conclusion that I’ll never be able to express it fully and that is just something I have to except. It’s a diamond I cannot share any other way than by behaving and acting in accord to what it’s done/does for me.

Also, it wasn’t migraines I was suffering with. Turned out to be a trapped nerve in my neck.

Not managed to get to Peru this year. I’ll go one day and compare though, and if not I’ll at least take DMT sometimes (it’s harmless.)

[Brent696]

DMT trips last about 30 to 45 minutes, presumably metabolize quickly. I thought you spoke of it lasting weeks, so this is why I was drawn to something like a dopamine over production. Plus DMT is said to be a very inward experience, eyes closed, I got the impression you were walking around pretty normal but with a heightened sense of connectiveness.

I'm glad it was life changing in a sense but I would caution a true trip on DMT might be totally different. I don't know your experiences, mine was mostly mushrooms and LSD in my teens,

But I do agree many people could use a bit of shaking up in how their thought structures about reality have become crystallized. Best of luck if you make it.

[someguy1]

From what I hear salvia is nothing like weed. Salvia is a hallucinogen and weed is a mild intoxicant.

[BadgerJelly]

Brent -

I believe the initial trigger was DMT naturally produced in my brain. Without a doubt I also assume the slow drop off over the weeks was due to a lot of serotonin swimming around in my brain.

[Brent696]

I appreciate your loyalty to dmt. But as I posited, this has a rapid motabolization, so it just does not seem to fit the weeks of steady experience, if I understood your experience correctly.

Dmt also seems to add a layer of hullucigenic experience that you did not seem to experience. Only you can know how well you fit the euphoric experience.

As with anything regarding health, the effect is what is important. How it changed your life, opened your mind etc...

AS I have a background in holistic health, so I focus on results. My opinion is not held in the highest regards here so I am erroring on the side of gentility.

[BadgerJelly]

DMT is not a “trip” or a “high.” I was referring to subjective reports that describe the point of “breakthorugh” being very similar to what I experienced - the initial “experience” lasted anywhere between 30 seconds or a hour maybe? I’ve no idea. The effect after that “euphoria” lasted much longer and even today thinking about it enough can bring me close to tears (not “bad” tears I should add.)

I have no loyalty to DMT at all. I simply read a hell of a lot after the experience and done some research into endocrinology, general neuroscience and such things (Jung being the best guide to date - “Active Imagination”); and I mean neuroscience textbooks not merely browsing the web and watching random youtube vids.

[Brent696]

BadgerJelly » August 18th, 2018, 2:18 pm

DMT is not a “trip” or a “high.” I was referring to subjective reports that describe the point of “breakthorugh” being very similar to what I experienced - the initial “experience” lasted anywhere between 30 seconds or a hour maybe? I’ve no idea. The effect after that “euphoria” lasted much longer and even today thinking about it enough can bring me close to tears (not “bad” tears I should add.)

Like I said, I was not sure I had a full understanding of your experience, since we are in the lounge perhaps I can share this freely,

when I was 32, I had three girls, 4,6,8, and a wife about to go awol. I had spent 13 years as an ardent spiritual seeker, and despite a mind that could quickly surpass those seekers around me as I was able to absorb context quite readily, my search for truth and the ultimate reality always seemed as if I was missing merely one piece of the puzzle.

One day I was working for a client leaning over the edge of his pool in the summer digging out caulk and my mind, for lack of a better word, broke. For about three months I experienced freely the failure of my marriage and likewise my spiritual life as I realized I was never going to attain the state where I thought God might be accepting of me.

In the vulnerability, rather than rush to those who would help me reconstruct my mental defenses, as so many shrinks or psychologists would advise, I determined to maintain that state of vulnerability. My acceptance might be termed a managed nervous breakdown. Lost 60 pounds but remained focus on taking care of the girls while my wife went into relationship sabotage.

Tears at first were hard, angry, but after a while they were just tears, cleansing. In this defenseless state one day is when God spoke to me, all he said was basically He chose me, I did not choose Him, I could not earn His love, neither could I do anything to lose it. In that few seconds laying on my bed looking up at the ceiling my life changed.

I didn't join a church, go preach in the streets, I was simply at rest. Of course this is not about witnessing to you, I don't really know how you feel about God and its none of my business, but rather how a mind can break when psychological defenses, denial, etc...crumble in a moment of time, and how a revelation also can satiate the brain of an undefined hunger.

But what I share here, 25 years later, is a cosmology that settled in a few years after, even though I was no longer searching, certain things from years of reading every scripture in the world, just settled into place. But I am sure all that will be debated thoroughly;-)

But to the point, these psychological events, these milestones, requires only a few moments of deep remembrance before I can be drawn into the emotional experience of them. I've had other experiences, sweat lodges, vision quests, rebirthing, drugs, but they all seemed a bit forced compared to the ones that just happen in life.

[BadgerJelly]

I can relate. I am not “religious” though, but the word has a different meaning for me now and I view the such concepts as explorations that lack intelligible and articulate definition.

People who aw the state I was in wonder why I wish they could experience something similar. They are quite baffled when I say the horror of it was more than worth it, it was quite obviously a neccessary step in the process of life that some, I fear, never even touch upon.

Thanks for sharing. I guess we’re both aware of something and know too well the urge to express it and the knowledge of the impossibility of doing so beyond metaphor and loose analogy - which probably do more to muddy the experience than bring it into any greater “focus.”