Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

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Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby BadgerJelly on November 12th, 2016, 2:27 am 

Neuro.

I remember reading about a study of child development. They asked a child what was in crayon box. The child said crayons. Then they opened the box and inside was some chocolate. They then asked the child what they thought was in the box prior to looking, and they said chocolate.

This demonstrates that in early development we convince ourselves of previously held beliefs.

My question is is there any evidence that in even earlier development do we come to believe in having a sense of control over our bodies when we don't actually have any control? By this I am referring to how motor function develops ... forget the technical term for random wriggling body movements?? Anyway, just thinking that if we want to reach for something we essentially "enforce" the repetition of some random movement. We "believe" we reached out when in fact it was really a random movement and by "believing" we willed it we actually create willful movement and thus gain increased motor control.

I do realise that the study I mentioned to start could be more about how we learn language and combine language with memory. What is that word for "tentacle-like" movement??
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby neuro on November 13th, 2016, 2:11 pm 

BadgerJelly » November 12th, 2016, 7:27 am wrote:Neuro.

I remember reading about a study of child development. They asked a child what was in crayon box. The child said crayons. Then they opened the box and inside was some chocolate. They then asked the child what they thought was in the box prior to looking, and they said chocolate.

This demonstrates that in early development we convince ourselves of previously held beliefs.

Actually this occurs up to a certain age, and something similar occurs to autistic children at even later ages.
The point is not about convincing ourselves of previously held beliefs.
The point is that up to a certain age we are unable to "see us from outside". Up to a certain age - and often in autism - it is not possible to "put ourselves in the mind" of someone else and try and following their reasoning. We cannot but assume they know what WE know and don't know what we don't. It is technically called "theory of mind". Before we fully develop a consciousness, "we in the past" cannot be understood clearly, it is like asking what another person thinks, and we are unable to "put ourselves in the mind" of the past ourself as we are unable with other people.
We simply think they know what we know.

My question is is there any evidence that in even earlier development do we come to believe in having a sense of control over our bodies when we don't actually have any control? By this I am referring to how motor function develops ... forget the technical term for random wriggling body movements?? Anyway, just thinking that if we want to reach for something we essentially "enforce" the repetition of some random movement. We "believe" we reached out when in fact it was really a random movement and by "believing" we willed it we actually create willful movement and thus gain increased motor control.

I would not agree with this vision.
Although it is true that we do not have - initially - good control on our movements, reaching and grasping movements are almost completely pre-programmed patterns of movement, and the sight itself of an object - and its location in the surrounding space - automatically activates the neurons in the premotor cortex that PROPOSE such movements. Our elaboration of sensory stimuli is intrinsically RELATIONAL and translated into possible behavioral RELATIONS with any relevant object. We don't necessarily execute the proposed motor behaviors, but they do get programmed.
So it is not random movements that get finalized. It is RELATIONAL movements that receive stronger or weaker meaning and motivation based on reinforcement and get improved in terms of proficiency.

I do realise that the study I mentioned to start could be more about how we learn language and combine language with memory.

It might be, I do not know that study in particular. But, as I said, I believe it had more to do with the development of the "theory of mind".

What is that word for "tentacle-like" movement??

I do not know. "wavering?"
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby BadgerJelly on November 14th, 2016, 5:14 am 

Yes, it did talk about theory of mind. It is intriguing that we can possess a memory of something and yet not regard this as being part of "I".

Thanks for the input. When I said "random" movement was probably not the best word to use. I am still considering that our "programmed" movements are enforced by belief. Meaning our conscious intentional motor functioning is to a large degree enforce by "accidentally" believing we made the movement happen. My thinking of this is in parallel to our innate optimistic bias towards the world and our place in it. Of course it is fairly obvious that repetition of movement and intentional acts lead to a greater degree of accuracy (anyone can learn to do ohysical activities!).

A problem thinking about this in regard to children is what "intention" means to a child. They live in an extraordinary world. Just today watching a girl that has just learnt to run, going back and forth giggling with delight. I wish I could be inside her head for just a second or two.

Can anyone tell me the technical term for grasping "tentacle-like" movements?? I am sure there is one!?!? Maybe it is just "tentacle-like movements" and I imagined it! Haha
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby teacherman on February 27th, 2017, 10:58 am 

Hi Neuro...
You wrote:
"Although it is true that we do not have - initially - good control on our movements, reaching and grasping movements are almost completely pre-programmed patterns of movement, and the sight itself of an object - and its location in the surrounding space - automatically activates the neurons in the premotor cortex that PROPOSE such movements. Our elaboration of sensory stimuli is intrinsically RELATIONAL and translated into possible behavioral RELATIONS with any relevant object. We don't necessarily execute the proposed motor behaviors, but they do get programmed.
So it is not random movements that get finalized. It is RELATIONAL movements that receive stronger or weaker meaning and motivation based on reinforcement and get improved in terms of proficiency."

I think I agree with everything you say here. Would I be correct in saying that the "relevant object" would have to be something the baby can relate to wherever (s)he is and fixed in relation to the eyes and arms - perhaps the tip of the nose? Otherwise she would have to re-orient every time she was moved into a new position.

You probably noticed that this post relates directly to my other posts.
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby neuro on March 5th, 2017, 11:28 am 

Well, teacherman,
you bring about a quite complex neurological problem.

Part of the sensory information that carries a spatial component (visual, acoustic and somatosensory) is conveyed from the ascending sensory nervous paths to the superior colliculus of the mesencephalon, where "neural maps" of the visual, acoustic and corporeal spaces are built. These areas of the superior colliculus are in strict and bidirectional connection with specific portions of the parietal cortex (mostly the ectosilvian regions) which also elaborate spatial information and integrate these three different maps, by putting them in register (the visual map depends on the position of the eyes, the acoustic one on the position of the head, the corporeal one on the position of the various parts of the body), into a "multi-modal" map of the external space. This is not so much a sensory map (the stimulus is 30° up, 27° to the right) but rather a motor map (in order to "contact" the stimulus I must turn toward this specific direction), which is directly translated into eye movements (the tecto-spinal tract, which control eye movements, originates from this portion of the superior colliculus) and used by the parietal cortex to propose motor programs for the appropriate movements of the head and the limbs, in order to appropriately face or contact the stimulus.

All this is involved in your turning your head and eyes toward a sudden flash or noise, before you even realize something happened.
And it also accounts for your rapidly moving your hand to pat away an insect that buzzes close to your ear.

I hope you sooner or later dismiss your perspective on an internal representation of the external space as centered on the nose: we have numerous internal maps of the external space, and they are arranged according to distinct axes systems. Part of the heavy work of the parietal cortex is to put the different sensory maps in register and to create a number of motor maps, each of which centered on the momentary position of the specific part of the body I wish to move.
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 11:39 am 

I am perfectly willing to dismiss that perspective if you can simply (yes, simply) tell me why so many of my dyslexic students read and write much better inverted than conventionally - especially since they have had instruction - sometimes intensive instruction - in reading conventionally.

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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby RoccoR on March 5th, 2017, 8:08 pm 

teacherman, et al,

Those with dyslexia may have trouble with the written language (the recognition of the alphabet). However, they often are no trouble accumulating knowledge in verbal form.

teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 11:39 am wrote:I am perfectly willing to dismiss that perspective if you can simply (yes, simply) tell me why so many of my dyslexic students read and write much better inverted than conventionally - especially since they have had instruction - sometimes intensive instruction - in reading conventionally.

Teacherman (Steve)

(COMMENT)

I think the problems surrounding dyslexia is more of our problem in communicating with them. If we understood what or how the individual dyslexic person sees in terms of characters and character combinations, we could computer program Transliterate (convert text from one script to dyslexic script) the written form.

I am under the impression that the traditional way of dealing with the dyslexic is unsuccessful because society simply doesn't decode the individual persons specific kind of recognition issue.

We need to look at this issue with and diagnose it early so that a productive approach can be developed for a whole family of such communication issues.

Just My Thought -- Respectfully,
R
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby teacherman on March 5th, 2017, 8:29 pm 

RoccoR » March 5th, 2017, 8:08 pm wrote:teacherman, et al,

Those with dyslexia may have trouble with the written language (the recognition of the alphabet). However, they often are no trouble accumulating knowledge in verbal form.

teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 11:39 am wrote:I am perfectly willing to dismiss that perspective if you can simply (yes, simply) tell me why so many of my dyslexic students read and write much better inverted than conventionally - especially since they have had instruction - sometimes intensive instruction - in reading conventionally.

Teacherman (Steve)

(COMMENT)

I think the problems surrounding dyslexia is more of our problem in communicating with them. If we understood what or how the individual dyslexic person sees in terms of characters and character combinations, we could computer program Transliterate (convert text from one script to dyslexic script) the written form.

I am under the impression that the traditional way of dealing with the dyslexic is unsuccessful because society simply doesn't decode the individual persons specific kind of recognition issue.

We need to look at this issue with and diagnose it early so that a productive approach can be developed for a whole family of such communication issues.

Just My Thought -- Respectfully,
R


Totally agree, R
How do we get the right people to start looking at this issue?
Maybe this forum is a start....
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby RoccoR on March 6th, 2017, 5:23 am 

teacherman, et al,

Well, that is easier said than done.

teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 8:29 pm wrote:Totally agree, R
How do we get the right people to start looking at this issue?
Maybe this forum is a start....
Steve

(COMMENT)

Those in the academic industry, especially those that research but don't actually implement, are political animals... Talking to them is like talking to a lab rat. They just run the maze and babble statistics that are twisted to their best image.

I suspect that it will not be in my lifetime that we will see the Department of Education actually tackle the issue. They have been unsuccessful in a wide range of educational challenges; everything from Asperger's to Blindness and beyond. Your tax dollars are wasted on politics that the most should go to those that will contribute the greatest to society as they measure it.

Until we get rid of the 20th Century dead weight career politicians that pretend to operate in America's best interest (those over priced failures in Congress), no real progress will be made. Congress is diametrically opposed to creating, in America, a new renaissance in education, scientific research and development --- the world center for the great minds into the next century. I am so glad I have my kids through college. While the Congress is lining their pockets with tax dollars and feeding the military-industrial complex, they are creating an America that doesn't build anything; and can't maintain (much less improve) the national infrastructure.

    Remember, you are talking about a leadership in Washington that took the America that put men on the Moon, to having our Astronauts hitchhike into space. There is no shaming them into action. They are about influence money and power; even a hungry used car salesman has more integrity than a member of Congress.

So it is not likely they powers-that-be will open up projects to address an entire host of education problems. The US just barely made it into the 10 Most Educated Countries In The World.

Most Respectfully,
R
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby teacherman on March 6th, 2017, 9:48 am 

I agree and understand we need change, Rocco
Unfortunately, change can be good and bad, and I think we are going from bad to worse with the most recent changes.
How do we get back on track?

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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby neuro on March 6th, 2017, 4:09 pm 

teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 4:39 pm wrote:I am perfectly willing to dismiss that perspective if you can simply (yes, simply) tell me why so many of my dyslexic students read and write much better inverted than conventionally - especially since they have had instruction - sometimes intensive instruction - in reading conventionally.

Teacherman (Steve)


My suggestion is they may be more proficient in recognizing a word by a semantic approach if they are not forced to read it letter by letter, as they have been taught to do... (see my post in the other thread)
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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby teacherman on March 6th, 2017, 5:01 pm 

neuro » March 6th, 2017, 4:09 pm wrote:
teacherman » March 5th, 2017, 4:39 pm wrote:I am perfectly willing to dismiss that perspective if you can simply (yes, simply) tell me why so many of my dyslexic students read and write much better inverted than conventionally - especially since they have had instruction - sometimes intensive instruction - in reading conventionally.

Teacherman (Steve)


My suggestion is they may be more proficient in recognizing a word by a semantic approach if they are not forced to read it letter by letter, as they have been taught to do... (see my post in the other thread)



Thanks Neuro,
Some teachers use the semantic approach, some favor phonics and that "letter by letter approach. I've used both - and more. I personally think that a really good teacher, one who is "worth his/her salt", uses every tool s/he has in that "bag of tricks" to get kids to learn to read. Every child is unique.

It's when the "powers that be" dictate exactly how, when and where to teach that we find kids being "left behind".

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Re: Control/Belief - Development of Sense of Body

Postby BadgerJelly on March 17th, 2017, 10:26 am 

HEY!

Neuro -

Just stumbled across the word I couldn't remember. ATAXIA!

Although it turns out that it doesn't mean exactly what I thought it meant. Nevertheless I can put that annoyance to bed now ;)
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