Why have children?

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Why have children?

Postby Athena on July 31st, 2016, 1:37 pm 

When we reach happiness, people without children are happier than people with children, so why do have chose to have children? This thread will work best if you watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwQFSc9mHyA
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Re: Why have children?

Postby zetreque on July 31st, 2016, 2:40 pm 

Right from the beginning...
There is only speculation of what happiness was before agriculture.

The second major criticism I have is he didn't show happiness level past their child being 4 years old.

3rd is what's with the translation at the end? lol

I agree with his last point he kinda makes which is what I have long known.
It's not about money, it's how you spend money,
It's not about having children, it's about how you raise your children,
It's not about getting married, it's about who you marry.
Going back to the beginning of this. Happiness before agriculture depended on the culture and society. Some were nasty and brutish, and some were pleasant cooperatives.

The burden is on us to be happy, not the world making us happy.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 1st, 2016, 4:06 am 

Hi Athena

Regarding your question why have children?

We humans always think that our problems comes to an end if we met specific criteria, i thought i will be happy if i get trough my undergraduate exam, i completed but the problem comes in other form as Post Graduate, then i thought i will be happy if i complete my Post Graduate, but still the problem comes in another form of Unemployment, i thought i will be happy if i get a Job, after getting a job comes another problem of getting Married, my point is like law of energy problems or happiness cannot be created nor be destroyed it keeps on transmute from one form into another. Humans give birth to children for many reason but the outcome is the infinite no of two either happiness or sadness.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby BadgerJelly on August 1st, 2016, 5:35 am 

I learn from children. Children help me understand who I am. Children/learning makes me happy.

All happiness for me is about understanding and finding more tontry and understand. When I lack understanding or lack direction of where to focus my pursuit of understanding I lack happiness.

That said I can also say that disengagement from understanding, or pursuit of understanding, does give a kind of mental "cleansing" from where I can re-engage.

I learn some time ago it is not about what or where only about the "how".
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 1st, 2016, 5:57 am 

Hi Badger Jelly

you mentioned the following statement that

"All happiness for me is about understanding and finding more tontry and understand. When I lack understanding or lack direction of where to focus my pursuit of understanding I lack happiness"

from the above statement i conclude that you will be happy if you understand the unknown and lack happiness when you don't understand or lack direction to understand something of your interest. If this is true don't you realize that happiness is not the one which helps you to delve or get profound in your knowledge rather its just the outcome of your curiosity that makes you to understand things which you don't know. What i mean is you engage in searching for something not to get happiness but for some other reason and the positive outcome makes you happy.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Eclogite on August 1st, 2016, 12:34 pm 

We are the end product of three and a half billion years of evolution in which every one of our ancestors either decided to spontaneously divide into two new organisms, or to have children. It's not easy to break a three and a half billion year habit that is genetically programmed into our repertoire.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Paralith on August 1st, 2016, 2:54 pm 

I feel like the talk itself answered your question, Athena. Spending time with your children averages out to be miserable, but they provide you with transcendent moments of happiness, moments that fill your memory and block out all the others, moments which few other activities can rival. And what drives us to have children in the first place, and makes us so joyous when our children say things like "you're the best daddy every in the world", is exactly what Ecolgite said. It is the most basic and ancient drive for all life forms.

Much of the talk resonates with things I have learned both through reading other psychological studies and my own experience. So much of happiness is your choice. It's who you choose to marry, it's how you choose to spend your money, it's how you choose to raise your children. I don't doubt that part of the happiness children gap in the US is the intense pressure to do everything perfectly with your children. A dear friend of mine hand made all her baby's food when she had her first child. While she can rest assured that her baby's food is organic and fresh and perfectly nutritionally balanced and healthy because she made that food that way to the best of her ability, it only added to the time and effort and stress that came into her life along with her child. Finding the balance between good care and back breaking labor is going to make a big difference, I imagine.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 6th, 2016, 3:42 pm 

Biosapien and Badgerjelly, I have to keep what you both said in mind, as I am working on a workshop about happiness and life skills, and you both make the point, happiness is not exactly about "what" we have, but rather "how" we achieve it. I would like this thread to shift to how we become happy.

I want to thank everyone for responding, considering how badly I presented the question. I was supposed to say "research" on happiness, makes it clear people without children report more happiness than people with children. It is really paradoxical because many people find their children to be the most important part of their lives, but report less happiness, than people who have no children.

Personally, I don't like the idea of exercising or spending the day with children, and yet both make me feel so much better! I can be really down before spending the day with children and while I am with them experience irrational happiness! I have just done what I think I really don't want to do, and I am happy. Explain that?

Here's another paradox. I have very little money, so giving it away hurts on one level, but on another level, we all feel good when we give of ourselves to another. This could be giving money or our time or advice. Crazy isn't it? When we make a decision that means having less for ourselves, we experience happiness according to the research.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 6th, 2016, 3:52 pm 

Paralith » August 1st, 2016, 12:54 pm wrote:I feel like the talk itself answered your question, Athena. Spending time with your children averages out to be miserable, but they provide you with transcendent moments of happiness, moments that fill your memory and block out all the others, moments which few other activities can rival. And what drives us to have children in the first place, and makes us so joyous when our children say things like "you're the best daddy every in the world", is exactly what Ecolgite said. It is the most basic and ancient drive for all life forms.

Much of the talk resonates with things I have learned both through reading other psychological studies and my own experience. So much of happiness is your choice. It's who you choose to marry, it's how you choose to spend your money, it's how you choose to raise your children. I don't doubt that part of the happiness children gap in the US is the intense pressure to do everything perfectly with your children. A dear friend of mine hand made all her baby's food when she had her first child. While she can rest assured that her baby's food is organic and fresh and perfectly nutritionally balanced and healthy because she made that food that way to the best of her ability, it only added to the time and effort and stress that came into her life along with her child. Finding the balance between good care and back breaking labor is going to make a big difference, I imagine.


I have to ponder what you said. I can remember making bread, kneading the dough, waiting for it to rise, etc. and while I don't this now, I do similar things and feel good about having this ability and accomplishing something. I lost interest in most of this kind of stuff when my children left home, and haven't done it for years. But my great grandchildren are exciting me in this way and I am now working on a sweater. Hum, the relationship is important and I have to ponder what is happening here. Thank you.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 8th, 2016, 3:44 am 

Athena: People without children report more happiness than people with children. It is really paradoxical because many people find their children to be the most important part of their lives, but report less happiness, than people who have no children.

Biosapien: Its true that people without children are more happiness than people with children. Let's explore the reason for this with some examples from our daily life.

"Life of people with no children"

Nice hardcore sex in the name of trying for baby, then go to work, meeting with friends, go for shopping, movie, restaurant and so on. Even they have the choice to go back and enjoy their bachelor life like the way before they get married.

"Life of the people with children"

Need to wake up multiple time to feed the baby, clean the mess which they made, always needs to keep on eye on them and run behind them. Two people have to work really hard to build better future for their children. To say in one word these people have more responsibility and that responsibility drags the people away from the happiness.

There is old saying from saints that the first sin any humans make in their life is falling in love, the next sin is getting married and the worse sin is giving birth to children.

To my concern happiness or sadness once we get saturated with it we never feel them anymore for same or different reason.

Athena : Personally, I don't like the idea of exercising or spending the day with children, and yet both make me feel so much better! I can be really down before spending the day with children and while I am with them experience irrational happiness! I have just done what I think I really don't want to do, and I am happy. Explain that?

Biosapien: People feel happy for no reason when they are with children is because people really forgot about their own stress. For example imagine the following situation. Your are shouted by your boss and at the end of the day your meeting different people. The possible outcomes when you meet the different people are the following

Friends - May be you drink or smoke and talk about what happen between your boss and you

Mom- Doing the above mentioned without drink or smoke

Wife- Same as with friends or with Mom

Child: You will be laughing by looking the baby's face for no reason. But the reason why you laugh is because your not thinking about anything which makes you worry rather you simply think how to make the baby laugh a lot.

Athena : Here's another paradox. I have very little money, so giving it away hurts on one level, but on another level, we all feel good when we give of ourselves to another. This could be giving money or our time or advice. Crazy isn't it? When we make a decision that means having less for ourselves, we experience happiness according to the research.

Biosapien: Imagine the following situation

Human = Coin

Happiness = Head

Sadness = Tail.

# 1 When i toss the coin i always get either head or tail, likewise humans always experience either happiness or sadness

#2 Though its a same coin which sometime results in head and sometime results in tail because of probability reason, we humans also express happiness or sadness for same situation with different time interval.

So everything is Probability. But from philosophical point of view i want to mention the third outcome which is called Peace and this is not related to happy or sad. To experience this peace someone should be saturated or refrain from happiness or sadness.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 8th, 2016, 11:12 am 

Biosapien, You make me think of so many things.

There was a young man in college who seemed frustrated with women always want to get married and have children. I get this is not on some males schedules of things to do.

When I was young, I found this incomprehensible, because I was sure happiness depended on being married and having children. That was before women's liberation and our school books and media promoted the family life, with women staying home to care for the family and men working to support the family. All families owned homes and the wife kept them clean, made them beautiful and entertained children, family and friends. Having children was a status thing, establishing a person as an adult, and this was very important!

I am disturbed by Star Trek and Kirk's crew not having family lives. I am disturbed by all the shows that are about adults living without the traditional family. How does a civilization work without family order?

You seem to take happiness for granted. I was unhappy for so long, I had forgotten what happiness felt like. I will never forget the day when I realized I was experiencing happiness, and that I had forgotten what this felt like. We should not take happiness for granted. I hopefully will start workshops to increase people's happiness, sense of well-being and chances of success. I will not recommend marriage and having children as the way to have happiness because the happiness must come first or things get worse.

Hum, I love these discussions, because of the thoughts and the questions they stimulate. It might look like I think I know what I am talking about, but really I question what I think I know and I look forward to replies that push me to think about what I think. Thank you
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 8th, 2016, 11:31 am 

zetreque » July 31st, 2016, 12:40 pm wrote:Right from the beginning...
There is only speculation of what happiness was before agriculture.

The second major criticism I have is he didn't show happiness level past their child being 4 years old.

3rd is what's with the translation at the end? lol

I agree with his last point he kinda makes which is what I have long known.
It's not about money, it's how you spend money,
It's not about having children, it's about how you raise your children,
It's not about getting married, it's about who you marry.
Going back to the beginning of this. Happiness before agriculture depended on the culture and society. Some were nasty and brutish, and some were pleasant cooperatives.

The burden is on us to be happy, not the world making us happy.


Ouch, you are so right- it is not as simple as having children, but is about how they are raised. And today, that means having money! We live with relative deprivation, and if we can not give our children advantages, relative deprivation can be a huge problem. Raising children alone, in constant insecurity and without the advantages will lead to a young person feeling insecure and lacking confidence, and self-esteem and things go downhill from here.

Oh yeah, it is very much about who we marry and I wish I had a better understanding of this when I was young. Hum, I wonder, do I dare bring this up in a workshop? Help folks! I need feed back. Here is an idea- I have a movie about how a young black man who helps a young white woman realize her dreams. The man is pulled into a life of crime and violence by a childhood friend but is able to resist and make good choices. It is a scary idea, but what about showing this movie and then opening discussion about what part relationships played in the choices people made? This would include the black man's sister being a teenage mother. It is a really good movie about life choices and relationships. Should I use it as workshop tool?
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Braininvat on August 8th, 2016, 4:17 pm 

Athena, I'm no expert but I imagine the lack of families on the original Star Trek had something to do with the quasi-military tone of the 1st series....ostensibly a peaceful mission, but somehow there turned out to be a fair amount of "gunboat diplomacy." Next Gen series softened a bit in this regard, hence Wesley Crusher, one of the most annoying characters in the history of televised scifi.

[/geek]
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Re: Why have children?

Postby zetreque on August 8th, 2016, 7:32 pm 

I want to add to what I said that in addition to it being how we raise our children and how we spend our money. It's not 100% our choice. Society certainly has an impact and can steer us in bad directions. We don't have total control over who our children become due to the influence of society, unless we were able to isolate them on a deserted island of course. It's the scary thing about having children. Perhaps just as important to how we raise our children is how we accept aspects of it.

As for money. Too many children are spoiled these days. There are plenty of wealthy people with as_h__e children that take everything for granted and become self centered.

On top of all of that, no one teaches us these things when we are little unless we are fortunate enough to have wise and loving parents that raised us. And even then, sometimes we have to make mistakes before realizing it and being aware of it anyway. There are a lot of things that need to change in society before we can live in a happy world.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 9th, 2016, 12:48 am 

Athena: "There was a young man in college who seemed frustrated with women always want to get married and have children. I get this is not on some males schedules of things to do"

Biosapiens: In the above situation i thing the young man got frustrated because of psychologically he has been attacked by his girlfriend/friend/family membrane by passing a comment that he is not a worthy to be a male due to his infertility.

Love to dig a lot on this with further interesting questions.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby BadgerJelly on August 9th, 2016, 5:14 am 

He was probably frustrated with the idea outlined in the video. I have been there myself.

I always considered it to be a very strange idea to assume marriage, a good job and children meant happiness. This is also something that society in general expects of individuals.

We are social animals, but I don't see a nees to create a social blueprint that people should be expected to adhere to. No matter how society tries to set a social blueprint we will always find a variety of social relationships.

Maybe one day I will have two women in my life and children by several different women. Maybe I'll have no children. Maybe I will be in an exclusive relationship with someone and never have children. Maybe my social interactiona will never result in anything other than a group of close and loving friends.

It is often difficult in youth to distinguish personal wants and needs form those imposed on you by social conditioning.

My happiest moments have been in solitude. I can never possess the same kind of happiness in company that I can alone. Of course I can say the reverse, and I just so happen to value the happiness I have occassionally found in solitude more than the kind of happiness I have found in company.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 11th, 2016, 1:18 am 

Braininvat » August 8th, 2016, 2:17 pm wrote:Athena, I'm no expert but I imagine the lack of families on the original Star Trek had something to do with the quasi-military tone of the 1st series....ostensibly a peaceful mission, but somehow there turned out to be a fair amount of "gunboat diplomacy." Next Gen series softened a bit in this regard, hence Wesley Crusher, one of the most annoying characters in the history of televised scifi.

[/geek]



The stories of Greek gods and goddesses also was about grown-ups and not children, something that you just made me realize. They were family, but not Ozzie and Harriet, or Father Knows Best of Leave it to Beaver family stories.

If you can compare the Star Trek shows, you might notice Kirk is the John Wayne of outer space. This series portrays the generations prepared for individual thinking.

The Next Generation Star Trek is the "group think" generation. I was favorably impressed by the lack of John Wayne agression, but also put off by the lack of independence too.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 11th, 2016, 1:45 am 

About social pressure to get married and have children. Long before governments and their rule by law, with paid law enforcers, there were families and families became the foundation for civilizations. I believe there are biological reasons for this, and I question if civilizations can give us pleasure and liberty without family order.

For a biological reason to have children, yes, people respond differently to an adult with a child, but this is also true of chimps. One way a chimp can avoid the aggression of another chimp is to hold a baby. Awareness of this made aware of how much my relationship with a property manager changed when I saw him with his child. Seeing him with a child made me see him as someone I could like, and this was not possible before seeing him with his child. I also think he has become a better person since becoming a father. This is two separate things, responding to him different because of seeing him with his child, and seeing improvement in him since becoming a father.

I want to bring up a Scholastic argument about the possibility that babies could have been born fully capable, miniature adults if Adam and Eve had not sinned. We would not be as we are if it were not for babies. Does anyone want to imagine what humans would be like if we came into life fully capable, miniature adults and not dependent babies?

Also, what is a better social order than family order? Might our social security numbers be all we need for a well-organized society? How about ranking each of us as the military does? Would a society with no order work, no expectations of each other, but all relationships being completely unknown.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 11th, 2016, 1:57 am 

BadgerJelly, I once lived with two men. That was a lot of fun at first, but soon the fun wore off and I was exhausted trying to please two men. I sure would not want to try that with children too. Now I might be able to share a man with another woman, providing she helped with the children and shared with the housework, but I don't think in a world of choices this would last very long. Unstable relationships are fine for adults, but I don't think they are good for children.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby BadgerJelly on August 11th, 2016, 3:27 am 

Athena » August 11th, 2016, 1:57 pm wrote:BadgerJelly, I once lived with two men. That was a lot of fun at first, but soon the fun wore off and I was exhausted trying to please two men. I sure would not want to try that with children too. Now I might be able to share a man with another woman, providing she helped with the children and shared with the housework, but I don't think in a world of choices this would last very long. Unstable relationships are fine for adults, but I don't think they are good for children.


Did I say unstable ?
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 11th, 2016, 4:51 pm 

BadgerJelly » August 11th, 2016, 1:27 am wrote:
Athena » August 11th, 2016, 1:57 pm wrote:BadgerJelly, I once lived with two men. That was a lot of fun at first, but soon the fun wore off and I was exhausted trying to please two men. I sure would not want to try that with children too. Now I might be able to share a man with another woman, providing she helped with the children and shared with the housework, but I don't think in a world of choices this would last very long. Unstable relationships are fine for adults, but I don't think they are good for children.


Did I say unstable ?


You did not say unstable but science does. Unless a man and a woman have an agreement that they will be monogamous the relationship tends to be unstable. There is also a tendency for violence when a mate is caught cheating. And universally there has been social pressure to pair up and have children.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Athena on August 11th, 2016, 4:58 pm 

There are different cultural agendas for raising children, and most dominant are serving God or serving the state.

http://www.parents.com/parenting/better ... parenting/

In certain countries, such as China and Israel, it has been believed that serving the country is most important. With this idea in mind, parents, religious leaders, and teachers in those countries usually agree about what virtues are to be encouraged in children: lawfulness, cooperativeness, studiousness, dedication to the specific principles of the nation. In other parts of the world, it has been assumed that children are born and raised to serve the aims of the extended family or clan, and should prepare themselves for jobs important to the family. Children must revere and defer to their elders. They may even be forced to marry a stranger chosen by their parents for the purpose of advancing the family's welfare. In a way, this simplifies child rearing for the parents because they all agree with what child rearing means. This is in contrast to America where each family has to decide for itself what its aims are, whether they are primarily materialistic or spiritual, whether religion is to play an important role or whether a certain psychological theory is the determinant.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 11th, 2016, 11:23 pm 

When i was a kid, the following quote are written in almost all of the vehicle "We two ours two" (i.e., Mom, dad and 2 children). Now presently i am seeing the modified statement. "We two ours one". I think may in near future this again modified to " We two why should we need another one".
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Re: Why have children?

Postby EasternWind on August 17th, 2016, 3:41 pm 

Children are not for everybody, but for most, it does bring certain amount of happiness. But one could also notice only failed situation and disagree. Generally, having children adds to happiness. But there can of course be exceptions. The reason, is mainly because children are the way to extend life and happiness. Without children life ends pretty quick. So those who contribute to it, are "rewarded" with certain amount of happiness.
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Dave_Oblad on August 17th, 2016, 7:27 pm 

Hi all,

For most of the World and most of History, having children is equivalent to Modern Social Security. Having large families increases the odds that one or more will be able to support the parents when the parents become too old/feeble/sick to do for themselves any longer.

Over populated areas of this planet reject Birth Control for this reason (at some level). I never had children because I didn't want to bring someone into this screwed up World that I would care about.

I backed up my Wife as she became the Day Care Center (baby sitter) for over a dozen latch-key kids around our apartments for 15 years. She got a large dose of the fun parts and the kids were always on their best behavior or she would have nothing to do with them. She provided this service for free.. she loved kids and they loved her.

Regards,
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 17th, 2016, 11:14 pm 

Why we have children?

1) They make our life meaningful
2) They will teach us what is Altruistic
3) They will heal us from the heart breaking moments
4) Most of all they will help us to identify who we are?
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Re: Why have children?

Postby BadgerJelly on August 18th, 2016, 2:46 am 

Bio -

Number 4!! :)
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Biosapien on August 18th, 2016, 2:50 am 

It would be better for me to explain if you put it through words Badger jelly
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Re: Why have children?

Postby EasternWind on August 18th, 2016, 9:39 am 

I think at this point a description of what we mean by happiness may be necessary. Also some issues relating to happiness need to be discussed. I think if we don't clarify what is meant by happiness, there can be confusion. For example, one of the issues related to happiness is the length of time happiness lasts (it was kind of mentioned by the speaker in that video). If an individual robs a bank he may become happy for a little while but that happiness will not last, and will lead to serious hardship, and that is why that is not acceptable happiness. So, we could say having children is hard work and not a happy event but the happiness we get from not raising kids is very short lived. There is also happiness to be gained from accomplishment, which implies overcoming some difficulties. For example climbing a mountain gives certain amount of happiness, even though there is hardship in doing it. I think the study that was done was seriously flawed. It has been probably extremely simplistic in design and ignoring a lot of issues. It actually makes me suspicious of the speaker - I get the idea that he has some hidden ulterior motive. Nobody can be that far off!
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Re: Why have children?

Postby Dave_Oblad on August 18th, 2016, 6:26 pm 

Hi EasternWind,

Welcome to the Forums.

EasternWind wrote:So, we could say having children is hard work and not a happy event but the happiness we get from not raising kids is very short lived.

I disagree. Responsibility is stressful pressure and the very antithesis of happiness. I see many of my friends with children getting very stressed over their capacity to support their children, keeping them fed, clothed and a roof over their head. I have no children and thus have never had that stress.. which means not raising and being responsible for raising children has been very long lived.. a lifetime in fact.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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