Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

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Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby mtbturtle on December 14th, 2012, 9:39 am 

Plato's Allegory of the Cave narrated by Orson Welles.

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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby DragonFly on December 14th, 2012, 12:14 pm 

We are/see the 3D 'shadows' of a 4-dimensional reality?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Watson on December 14th, 2012, 12:44 pm 

We are what we know. I imagine dyeing is much like ascending from the cave. At least I hope it is.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 18th, 2012, 2:52 pm 

4th dimension? Dying? ... Seriously?

Did you not for one second think that a metaphor may actually be a metaphor?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Watson on December 18th, 2012, 3:24 pm 

I was just drawing a parallel between us and our life, with all that we can know about life, and the cave people and all they can know about their life. Perhaps we have a similarly limited view, and dying opens our eyes to so much more that we can not see prior. Or, we may just die.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 18th, 2012, 3:32 pm 

What do you think Plato is really trying to say here?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Watson on December 18th, 2012, 4:00 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:4th dimension? Dying? ... Seriously?

Did you not for one second think that a metaphor may actually be a metaphor?



No. A metaphor is a representation of something else. Sometimes a metaphor is just a word, sometimes an analogy, but never just a metaphor.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Watson on December 18th, 2012, 4:03 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:What do you think Plato is really trying to say here?


That our knowledge is limited by our personal situation and life experiences. What he was trying to say, I don't know, but that's what I take from the story.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 18th, 2012, 4:30 pm 

If he meant just that do you not think he would have said that?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Watson on December 18th, 2012, 6:45 pm 

Like I said, I don't know what he was trying to say. What do you think he was trying to say?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby DragonFly on December 18th, 2012, 9:08 pm 

Image

— The Theater of Life —

At first, it was like a moving picture show,
Attended by mysteries, row upon row,
That were faceless, laughing, in the dark below;
So I laughed, too, and better enjoyed it so.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 19th, 2012, 3:33 am 

Watson wrote:Like I said, I don't know what he was trying to say. What do you think he was trying to say?


I'll try and be brief.

Basically what he is saying is so obvious it is easy to dismiss. We are of imagery not of objective "physical" reality. Our perceptions are based not solely on the external environment (that beyond the limits of our body) but also, and mostly, by the internal patterning of filtering and representing the vast swath of information interacting within.

We are neither what lies below the surface or what lies above. We are the surface patterns instigated between various internal and external interactions. To limit ourselves to belief systems of what is merely gives us less variety and expansion through our patterning world of creation.

To oppose what is deemed "wrong" is in fact "wrong" in itself ... thus we enter the world of philosophical paradoxes that people feel are "wrong" and "illogical" because they question the very essence of our sense of self and our ability to hold onto the socially/environmentally/external impression of "reality".

To break this down to a simple line what is being said is this :

"Ethics" is unethical and "Logic" is illogical.

The mistake of the vast majority of sensory input is the belief in up and down but not in up/down. A piece of string is a piece of string it has no top or bottom, or left or right. This is not to say "reality" is subjective it is saying "reality" is "unreal" and the "subjective" is in fact "objective".

We cut entities into more entities to better understand the "prime" or "primal" entities. To disregard for the sake of contemplation is the same as contemplating for the sake of disregarding ... this is the trap of perception in spite of itself and why Plato believed the pursuit of knowledge as the "noblest" of pursuits for mankind.

Throughout The Republic he is addressing ways to instigate this "virtuous" idea into society as a whole and humanity through simple steps.

And of course if you follow this line of thinking you can see that utter ignorance is as "virtuous" as pursuing absolute knowledge because they are one and the same NOT polar opposites.

Ignorance is "bliss" and "knowledge" is the pursuit of ignorance through "bliss". Bliss here I am simply trying to express as "fun". Do what you enjoy and never let it get away and you'll have real virtue and bliss not out of mere arrogance but out of humility.

Utter "ignorance" is the gift of death but whilst you are here why not help approach it from the "opposite" direction because essentially you cannot change the course of self perpetuating knowledge through the cybernetic input/output mechanisms of nature.

You are. You can choose not to be or to be that is the question of life many flounder in throughout their short and beautiful existence and that is the beauty of it, that is the origin of kalos, arete, virtue and eudaimonia.

From this point misrepresentation and ideology has held sway over most philosophical history. The individuals with true eudaimonia never wrote a word they merely played the role of eudaimonia for others to believe in because they could not reveal it to them, it being invisible to the imagination in any direct sense. You can cast a shadow but you cannot "be" a shadow just as if you were a shadow you cannot become the entity that it the "source" of the said shadow.

The mistake of many is to assume the reality of "logic" and "ethics" as polar strings of understanding when they are of the same thread woven through the totality of nature (absolute, "enclosed" reality).

In my humble/arrogant opinion :P
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby NeoTheseus on December 19th, 2012, 7:59 am 

Badger,
Are you trying to rehash the old Nature/Nurture debate with a Descartes twist?
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby mtbturtle on December 19th, 2012, 9:58 am 

Who here has read Plato, specifically the Republic or at least the section containing the Allegory of the Cave? just curious.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 19th, 2012, 10:09 am 

NeoTheseus wrote:Badger,
Are you trying to rehash the old Nature/Nurture debate with a Descartes twist?


Nope just telling what I see. Is it not obvious?

Then again maybe I am "rehashing"? ... no idea what Descartes said regarding The Republic.

I see the Tao Te Ching and The Republic as parallels to each other. Socrates appears to have initiated it all in the west but that just is not true. Homer/s did in the west as Lao Tzu/s did in the east ... how and when either started is not my concern but I am fairly convinced the answer lies in shamanic techniques and "traditions" that progressed into mythology and fable before taking on a "scientific" and/or "religious" tilt.

Since these times society/civilization has been oscillating between belief and disbelief, and between order and disorder. At the moment we are in an ordered belief based society and it will give to disorder and disbelief soon enough with a new kind of "renaissance" ... in fact it is already happening. That should be plain to see right? It doesn't take a genius to see the dramatic changes taking place over the last couple of dozen years.

Balance is an extreme not a peaceful state of being. Asymmetry is the only way and in my belief the principle of existence.

Anyway have plenty of ideas and sources to back up what I am saying but I doubt I'll ever find someone to help me unless I show what I can do ... if not so what? I am having fun and THAT is all that matters to me. If my thoughts are "wrong" then they are "wrong".

To put it simply either I am one who is tied to the chair staring at the shadows or the vast majority of others are. I am calm, happy, excited, inspired and zestful. I would like nothing better than for someone to "break" my world but I've yet to find anyone who can break what is already essentially "broken".

ps. I may be insane and I'd rather be this way for now otherwise I'd have to become a fool in my own mind which may be interesting in itself but I am generally having WAY too much fun with my life at the moment to be concerned with plunging back into the depths of the "known" in which everyone else seems so content to squander their lives without a regard for what life is to themselves let alone anyone else.

Anyway this should effectively close the door in the face of the egotistical but that's just the way it is sometimes. I've no time to dally with constant ignorance/arrogance that others project out of fear; instead of out of curiosity.

Good luck all :)
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 19th, 2012, 10:17 am 

mtbturtle wrote:Who here has read Plato, specifically the Republic or at least the section containing the Allegory of the Cave? just curious.


No one. In was written in a language that is somewhat lost to us ... luckily enough survived in translation to point this out to those who are willing to look.

I have read ONLY an English translation (Translated by Desmond Lee - Penguin Classics) and have only just recently read his introduction to get his point of view after reading it over about 6 or 7 times I imagine? Also I have checked out some of the confusions of the translation and the etymology to the best of my limited ability (not being able to speak Greek, let alone ancient Greek!).

I think it is VERY important to read the complete work here to understand this allegory. It is probably important to read ALL of Plato's works too and study the history of ancient Greece including its culture, social climate and economy. At some point point though we have to relate to him as a human being and not some genius beyond our reasoning just as much as we shouldn't disregard his less intelligible and "contradictory" writings. He was human after all and people do alter their views with time and experience.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby NeoTheseus on December 19th, 2012, 12:34 pm 

I have read, yes a translation, Plato's Republic, Symposium, ...I forget the discussion outside the courthouse the brought up the question of "Do the gods love things because they are holy or is it because gods love things that they are holy?". I also read the Trial & Death of Socrates.

Looking forward to more questions & responses. Loved the cartoon by the way...
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby mtbturtle on December 26th, 2012, 8:26 pm 

BadgerJelly wrote:
mtbturtle wrote:Who here has read Plato, specifically the Republic or at least the section containing the Allegory of the Cave? just curious.


No one. In was written in a language that is somewhat lost to us ... luckily enough survived in translation to point this out to those who are willing to look.

I have read ONLY an English translation (Translated by Desmond Lee - Penguin Classics) and have only just recently read his introduction to get his point of view after reading it over about 6 or 7 times I imagine? Also I have checked out some of the confusions of the translation and the etymology to the best of my limited ability (not being able to speak Greek, let alone ancient Greek!).

I think it is VERY important to read the complete work here to understand this allegory. It is probably important to read ALL of Plato's works too and study the history of ancient Greece including its culture, social climate and economy. At some point point though we have to relate to him as a human being and not some genius beyond our reasoning just as much as we shouldn't disregard his less intelligible and "contradictory" writings. He was human after all and people do alter their views with time and experience.


I couldn't make sense of your comments in terms of Plato more generally or the Allegory specifically.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby NeoTheseus on December 26th, 2012, 8:37 pm 

By the way, I have found the name of the book of Plato's I have read whose title eluded me before. It was Euthyphro.

...still looking forward to more questions, comments, & feedback.

-Richard
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Forest_Dump on December 26th, 2012, 10:32 pm 

Well, I had not seen that animated version before. Quite enjoyable. Thanks MTB.

As to the following commentary - sigh.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby Natural ChemE on December 27th, 2012, 3:51 am 

mtbturtle,

It is a good video. The story’s incomplete though.

Ignorance isn’t just one cavern that we’re all in, and enlightenment isn’t a single tunnel the top. Rather, we all start out in a cavern at the very bottom of a huge system of caverns connected by caves.

Sure, going through a cave up to a higher cavern may explain some of the shadows on the lower cave’s wall. For example, climbing up into the Cavern of Quantum Physics shows us that atoms were just the silhouette of a far more complex system of subatomic particles. But we can only climb so far in a finite time, and the system of caverns is vast beyond our reckoning.

To quote Schrödinger, as Rilx was kind enough to do:
“What is life”, Erwin Schrödinger wrote:We have inherited from our forefathers the keen longing for unified, all-embracing knowledge. The very name given to the highest institutions of learning reminds us, that from antiquity and throughout many centuries the universal aspect has been the only one to be given full credit. But the spread, both in width and depth, of the multifarious branches of knowledge during the last hundred odd years has confronted us with a queer dilemma. We feel clearly that we are only now beginning to acquire reliable material for welding together the sum total of all that is known into a whole; but, on the other hand, it has become next to impossible for a single mind fully to command more than a small specialized portion of it.

I can see no other escape from this dilemma (lest our true aim be lost for ever) than that some of us should venture to embark on a synthesis of facts and theories, albeit with second-hand and incomplete knowledge of some of them - and at the risk of making fools of ourselves.

Schrödinger published these words in 1944. Our knowledge base has continued to explode since then.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby BadgerJelly on December 27th, 2012, 4:16 am 

I couldn't make sense of your comments in terms of Plato more generally or the Allegory specifically.


I hope sometime next year to have something. Whether anyone will read it is another matter.

Thanks for bothering to read it and I am sorry my ability to express my thoughts is lacking/stupid. I'll use another words instead that hint towards what I was hoping to express (From the Tao Te Ching) :

translation one

A man with highest virtue does not keep to virtue and this is why he has virtue. A man of the lowest virtue never strays from virtue and that is why he is without virtue. The former never acts but leaves nothing undone*. The latter acts but there are things left undone*. A man of the highest benevolence acts, but from no ulterior motive. A man of the highest rectitude acts, but from ulterior motive. A man most conversant in the rites acts, but when no one responds rolls up his sleeves and resorts to persuasion by force.


translation 2

(Those who) possessed in highest degree the attributes (of the
Tao) did not (seek) to show them, and therefore they possessed them
(in fullest measure). (Those who) possessed in a lower degree those
attributes (sought how) not to lose them, and therefore they did not
possess them (in fullest measure).

(Those who) possessed in the highest degree those attributes did
nothing (with a purpose), and had no need to do anything. (Those who)
possessed them in a lower degree were (always) doing, and had need to
be so doing.

(Those who) possessed the highest benevolence were (always seeking)
to carry it out, and had no need to be doing so. (Those who)
possessed the highest righteousness were (always seeking) to carry it
out, and had need to be so doing.

(Those who) possessed the highest (sense of) propriety were (always
seeking) to show it, and when men did not respond to it, they bared
the arm and marched up to them.


There is more to this particular passage but I believe these both encompass the gist of what I see ... the prior translation is of more worth for relating to The Republic and ethics in general.
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Re: Plato's Allegory of the Cave - animated

Postby JohnD on May 29th, 2019, 5:46 am 

A man is lost so I am lost.
A man is found but I am lost still.
The people found the man and they are happy.
But the man is not for now he must do what others do.
Oh, how he wishes he was lost still.
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