Is light an electromagnetic wave?

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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby zetreque on October 21st, 2017, 2:47 pm 

sounds like nonsense to me. I won't be responding.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 2:53 pm 

zetreque » October 21st, 2017, 7:47 pm wrote:sounds like nonsense to me. I won't be responding.


I am afraid it does not make you sound all knowing. Only... whatever.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby zetreque on October 21st, 2017, 2:55 pm 

Odal » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:53 am wrote:
zetreque » October 21st, 2017, 7:47 pm wrote:sounds like nonsense to me. I won't be responding.


I am afraid it does not make you sound all knowing. Only... whatever.


Another statement that makes no sense. As if I claimed something along those lines. Are you insinuating something?
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 3:00 pm 

You are expressing a very harsh judgment without presenting any argument for it except for your status as a moderator.
Why should I be impressed?
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby zetreque on October 21st, 2017, 3:03 pm 

Well I am telling you that I have no idea what you are talking about. I tried and took it further than others would when most instances like this someone is trolling. I'm opening it up for someone else to comment.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 3:08 pm 

zetreque » October 21st, 2017, 8:03 pm wrote:Well I am telling you that I have no idea what you are talking about. I tried and took it further than others would when most instances like this someone is trolling. I'm opening it up for someone else to comment.


again the judgment: trolling.

I assure you that I consider it a vital issue. After all, all of contemporary physics is based on how we understand light, even to the point of believing in an expanding universe.

What we say about light is therefore fundamental. I might be wrong of course, but accusing me of trolling means that you think that there is nothing left to learn about light. Maybe you should look up what Einstein said about the subject.

Still, I respect your decision to not continue with the discussion any further. Just don't expect me to take your lashing lying down.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby zetreque on October 21st, 2017, 3:14 pm 

What you considered "lashing" was me being courteous to respond to your very first post today about why the silence.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 3:16 pm 

If you had kept being courteous we would have parted on much friendlier terms.
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Re: Is light/EM a form of perpetual motion?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 4:31 pm 

By the way, the title of this thread is not mine. I was responding to a thread of the same title, and the editors turned it into an independent thread. Probably because the OP had been banned.

I do not know which title I would have used, but the discussions that have taken place have little to do with perpetual motion.

Maybe the title should be:
Is light an em wave?
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Re: Duality Spree, Wikipedia's Free

Postby Faradave on October 21st, 2017, 8:21 pm 

Any science forum will have numerous archived threads on wave-particle duality. As far as I can tell, that's what you're wrestling with. You can search and read threads or just follow the link to Wikipedia.

That you find it confusing and mysterious is something everyone goes through at first. Science still finds the dual aspects conflicting but necessary. You mustn't expect this forum to put you ahead of current science, except if by some chance one of our many personal theories happens to get it right. But how would you know, without applied scientific rigor.

It's easiest to think of light as emitted and absorbed as a particle (photon) but traveling as a wave (EM).

The photo electric effect is the classic demonstration of light's particle aspect, as photons knock individual electrons off a charged metal plate. The double-slit experiment is the classic demonstration of light acting as a wave, in that a single photon can interfere with itself while passing through both slits at once!

As if that weren't enough, electrons and other tiny but massive "particles" exhibit the same duality!

You keep asking what light is. The answer depends on what you're measuring, its particle aspect or its wave aspect. Those aspects are considered complementary in that its impossible to nail down both, with precision, at once. There are a large number of complementary properties in physics.

One you might appreciate is the question, which way are a clock's hands moving? Most would answer, "Obviously, clockwise!" But that's not necessarily the case. The hands of a glass clock move counterclockwise if viewed from behind. A single observer must decide from what perspective he or she wishes to measure before an answer can be obtained. Different perspectives give different, yet correct answers.
Image

Same with duality! Classic objects, such as clocks, can support multiple observer perspectives at once. What makes the quantum realm, including photons, so special is that quantum objects can yield only one complementary observation at a time.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 21st, 2017, 8:25 pm 

@Faradave
I am afraid you have not read my posts carefully enough. It is not a matter of knowledge, and I do not need to follow the links you so graciously indicated.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby BurtJordaan on October 22nd, 2017, 12:59 am 

Odal, it seems to me that you were asking a trivial question, actually so trivial that nobody seemed to understand what the question is. ;) You can transmit one short high energy e.m. pulse and it can be received at astronomical distances from us.

Pulses of e.m waves (light, radio, etc) where the pulse sequence ends before the arrival of the pulses at a remote receiver is commonplace in spaceflight. When we send commands to the Mars rovers, the modulated signal sometimes last only a few minutes, but it can take over 10 minutes to arrive at the rover (depending on where Mars is in its orbit). The are many probes that are much farther away than Mars, where the same thing happens.

Does this qualify as 'empirical evidence' in your mind?
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 7:52 am 

@BurtJordaan
There is very strong, empirical, evidence that em waves propagate through space in time, and not instantaneously.
This still does not prove that light is itself an electromagnetic wave.
Allow me to remind you of Hertz and his sparks. You do not, I assume, and I do not, believe that it is the same spark in both instances?
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Re: What else?

Postby Faradave on October 22nd, 2017, 9:59 am 

The propagation speed of light was exactly derived by Maxwell's equations for electricity and magnetism, considered as a self-propagating wave.

Light never fails to demonstrate interference in exact accordance with the wavelengths employed (e.g. the width and spacing of slits in comparison to light wavelength.)

Planck's constant times the frequency of light emitted or absorbed, exactly explains the orbital transition energies (light quanta) of electrons about their nuclei. This is the energy attributed to photon carriers.

White light passing through a prism splits exactly according to wave theory into its frequency spectrum. That is, it acts as a wave front encountering a shaped medium of differing propagation speed.

Light only participates in interaction (emits, absorbs, alters trajectory) with electrically-charged particles. Light is completely ignorant of neutrinos and other dark matter.

You accuse folks of not reading your posts carefully. How about reading up on some of these well-established phenomena? Knowledge of these is not evident in your posts.

If you believe you have a better alternative, post it in Personal Theories. No one seems to be able to guess what you're getting at.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 10:05 am 

I wouldn't mind having this thread transfered to Personal Theories. As I said, I have not created it.

You are repeating what you have learned dutifully, and you apparently have learned a lot.

Still, of your own admission you have no idea of what I am talking about, while nothing that I have said is strange or incomprehensible. Only unorthodox and controversial.

Scientific progress has always been the work of heretics (Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Einstein). I do not pretend belonging in this illustrious company but maybe you should let it inspire you.
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Re: What's behind the curtain?

Postby Faradave on October 22nd, 2017, 11:00 am 

Odal wrote:maybe you should let it inspire you.

I must have missed "it". I view this thread as posing a question. If you don't consider light to have wave aspects, what do you think it has instead?
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Re: What's behind the curtain?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 11:07 am 

Faradave » October 22nd, 2017, 4:00 pm wrote:
Odal wrote:maybe you should let it inspire you.

I must have missed "it". I view this thread as posing a question. If you don't consider light to have wave aspects, what do you think it has instead?


"it" referred to how scientific progress takes place. Orthodoxy is indispensable for incremental progress, but once in a while a "paradigm change" is necessary.
The theory of the dual nature of light has always been considered as, philosophically at least, a weak theory. Einstein was never really satisfied with it.

I am claiming that light is a local effect of em waves, not an em wave itself. That is as far as I can go for now.

I am aware that this is at most the beginning of a theory, and certainly not the last word.

What I am certain of is that there is nothing in contemporary science that can prove that my claim is wrong.

Light as an em wave has always been an implicit assumption that has never been proved.
I reject this assumption.

To prove it wrong, or right, I have proposed an experiment using femtographic methods. I think it could definitely answer the question in an empirically strong fashion: is light an em wave?
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby BurtJordaan on October 22nd, 2017, 11:22 am 

Odal » 22 Oct 2017, 13:52 wrote:Allow me to remind you of Hertz and his sparks. You do not, I assume, and I do not, believe that it is the same spark in both instances?

No obviously not. Sparks are lousy transmitters, they actually emit sound waves and extremely 'dirty' e.m. waves, composed of a wide range of frequencies, which include light as a portion of the e.m. spectrum.

What we know as 'visible light' is an extremely small portion of this e.m. wave spectrum and all evidence we have is that it is essentially no different than the rest, apart from the frequency. They all propagate at the same speed (c) in free space, irrespective of frequency. So what else than e.m waves could light be?

As FD asked, do you have a personal theory about the question? If you disagree with the scientific position, the burden is on you to prove otherwise, not on the scientists to disprove it.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 11:25 am 

As I said, I do not mind the transfer of this thread.

I am still waiting for a relevant critique of my proposal.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 11:29 am 

May I point out that the experiment I propose does not assume whether light is or is not an em wave? It cannot therefore be considered as a part of a personal theory.
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Re: Mind Reader?

Postby Faradave on October 22nd, 2017, 11:49 am 

Odal wrote:I am claiming that light is a local effect of em waves, not an em wave itself. That is as far as I can go for now. ...I am still waiting for a relevant critique of my proposal.

That's far too vague to warrant a reply, let alone critique.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 22nd, 2017, 12:04 pm 

I think you are funny in your arrogance, not to say ignorance.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby zetreque on October 22nd, 2017, 12:26 pm 

I supposed this guy is ignorant too if he can't understand your proposal. Which still is awaiting some definitions.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby BurtJordaan on October 22nd, 2017, 1:23 pm 

Thread locked pending moderation.

EDIT: Unlocked under the condition of courteous discussion, with reputable technical references provided when asked for.
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Re: Is light an electromagnetic wave?

Postby Odal on October 23rd, 2017, 6:27 am 

This is a copy of the message I sent to zetreque after he posted the Youtube clip, and before the thread was reopened.

levitating diamonds.
Sent: October 22nd, 2017, 5:41 pm
From: Odal
To: zetreque

Thank you for the Youtube link, it is certainly interesting.

I am afraid that it does not disprove my claim that light is not an wave, but a local effect of such waves.

I am aware that such a claim is almost impossible to disprove. Whatever light effects can be put forward can be explained as the result of em waves supporting them.

The other side of the coin is in fact what is now happening: any local effect can be presented as a light phenomenon, and the claim is also very difficult to disprove.

That makes of the assertion that light is or is not an em wave a quasi-metaphysical claim where all opinions are as legitimate.

It was my aim to devise an empirical experiment to decide of this issue without presuming one assumption or the other.

Again, my thanks for the link and I hope we will be able to continue our dialog under better conditions.

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