is it possible to have two zeros?

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is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on January 28th, 2011, 12:42 pm 

i keep thinking that there is a one between two zeros. like 0-4-3-2-12340 i know there is not two zeros but i keep seeing it in reationship to knowing that one has to have some where to go if he is to go on a journey. like a bubble. i keep thinking that if we were a around a star that was real close to the blackhole or center of galaxy and we looked out i keep thinking we might see one two maybe three stars and if we look at the blackhole it is huge because not where we are at in time but that not alot of stuff has happened. i know space is made up of stuff but if blackholes exist, then it has to be nothing. i keep thinking that the blackholes is our suns shadow sort to speak. if we move and the blackhole does not then how can space or time exist in it? i also think that nothing is created by everything. when something dies it then at the moment of time in that spot is nothing. not the physical properties but absolute nothing created by something. i mean how can one have a present with out a future or a past of nothing. all this nothing is created by something. i think there will come a moment where momentum stops because the more something is created the more we make more nothing. the moment where nothing and something are at a stand still. when our something has grown so large and filled our center with nothing through all the blackholes and we collapse only to do it all over again. lol, so is it possible to have two zeros?
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby BioWizard on January 28th, 2011, 5:15 pm 

I can't figure out what this post is saying or asking. Some linguistic clean up might help in the future.

Also, blackholes are not nothing. If anything, blackholes are more of a thing than most other things in existence. They are MASSIVE.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Fuqin on January 29th, 2011, 8:02 am 

Hmmm I sympathize with your attempt to describe what you want to say, I have this difficulty also though sometimes I manage to nail It, usually when my concept is at least for me less speculative, but given what you have written, I get the feeling there are some philosophical hurdles, and scientific , however Bio already pointed out one of those , all I can give you to play with is that where nothing is concerned, that this is more to do with awareness , IMHO you can’t really have nothing, just a lack of awarness, I could be wrong about this , there have been philosophical books written about this topic but the only one I ever attempted to read was being and nothingness by jean Paul sartre and I’m still none the wiser for it Lol :) secondly, Zero (0) is more a mathematical convenience , for representing things like the center of Cartesian Coordinates or to represent a stationary object etc. hope that helps
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on January 30th, 2011, 6:45 pm 

well thanx alot for the feedback. i just keep getting this idea that there are two zeros for some reason and not so much having anything to do with space. i do know space is space and i was not reffering it to absolute nothing. but it seemed to me that a blackhole is already void of something. i keep thinking that in a blackhole time and space are the same thing or both obsolete. I mean if time and space can exist in a blackhole then how can everything be anything outside it. i wanna put some money on saying that a blackhole holds more nothing than something and that it is just a window of both sides of nothing to something. i know im wrong and i have no money so either way im stranded. i was really on this post hoping to make two zeros somehow. thanx
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xcthulhu on January 30th, 2011, 9:03 pm 

This isn't exactly an answer to your question, but in algebra it is not possible to have two zeros.

Some defining axioms that zero makes true are:

(a) x + 0 = x and (b) 0 + x = x

So suppose that you had two zeros, call them 0 and Z. Then:

Z + 0 = Z (from rule a), and also
Z + 0 = 0 (from rule b)

Therefore Z = 0

Of course, you are thinking about zero in a sort of physical sense, rather than a purely mathematical sense...
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Fuqin on January 31st, 2011, 10:56 am 

Well with the black hole thing ‘what Bio said’ ,personally I think there is more of an infinity thing going on in a black hole but I’ve watched to much sci-fi, however you said
“ i keep thinking that in a black hole time and space are the same”

I think space/ time are the same thing anyway, but your point is interesting enough to me , gravity is said to have an effect on time [ time slows down] ergo if things do kind of go infinite in a BH it may be that time stops at some point [this is just fun speculation of course]one might speculate a real case for zero then, with your other zero at the big bang , for us there would appear to be 2 zeros , a beginning and an end as it were
The zero time point however would only be itself one point internally speaking , but externally there might be many windows with which to view it.
now someone please beam me out of here before I create my own black hole
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby linford86 on January 31st, 2011, 11:57 am 

I don't know what a "physical zero" is, or what it means to have two of them. The zero we use in physics is the same as the zero used in mathematics. That's because when we use numbers in physics, it's an application of mathematics. Thus, xcthulhu's point about the uniqueness of zero would be sufficient for any physicist to conclude that zero is unique (i.e. our physicist zero is inherited from the mathematicians along with the arithmetic and algebraic structures.)

Perhaps there's a language barrier here; that is, maybe xrisisx means something different when he says zero than we do. That's fine; it just means that he needs to succinctly define the conception he has in mind.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on January 31st, 2011, 12:17 pm 

ty, and indeed i will try. if when i got here Allows me to asks the question where did i come from and where am i going only states that what is the need in a future or a past without the present to define it so? if the question to both future and past is the same thing then the present has to be the answer. what is math based on that does not have one between to possibles? i know this is silly but if i look at myself in the mirror and i ask myself how am i making two then somewhere in there i had to devide myself. by what? by time and space. if i walk to my myself so close that i not only cannot see myself does two things. made not only myself not even exist as one but also time and space does not exist between my reflection and i. but to note i am am still devided by 1. wow. ok, this is wack but i gave it a shot. I am so embarraced to hit enter. but i still think there is two zeros. And I just have to find a way to prove it. but then i guess i need to still define zero and nothing.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Fuqin on January 31st, 2011, 12:44 pm 

where did i come from and where am i going only states that what is the need in a future or a past without the present to define it so? if the question to both future and past is the same thing then the the present has to be the answer.

Ok it gets interesting ‘to be and not to be’ , being has substance nothingness has none or zero so in terms of future/past, relating to existence you come from zero and return to it but the only way to tell is by being or as you put it “the present has to be the answer” on a time line it might look like this 0->1->0 thus your 2 zeros divided by 1 or maybe it might be belter to move away from the existence theme and think of it as [off, on] , where one might say that [off] is actually defined by [on] but then [on] is then defined by [off], hmm well I think I’m getting the jist of it.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on January 31st, 2011, 12:55 pm 

whatever you said i sure like it. and yes, something like that. i mean if inside my body and outside my body is the sum eefort of me then how is not everything else the same way..kind of. even a rock has its inside parameter and outside. both inside and outside is defined by itself of any direction. no matter how many times you flip a coin there is always to sides to it but with out the coin you cannot have any side at all.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby sfhdweb on February 10th, 2011, 1:49 am 

xcthulhu wrote:This isn't exactly an answer to your question, but in algebra it is not possible to have two zeros.

Some defining axioms that zero makes are:

(a) x + 0 = x and (b) 0 + x = x

So suppose that you had two zeros, call them 0 and Z. Then:

Z + 0 = Z (from rule a), and also
Z + 0 = 0 (from rule b)

Therefore Z = 0

Of course, you are thinking about zero in a sort of physical sense, rather than a purely mathematical sense...


So interesting ,awesome and nicely proved.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 11th, 2011, 5:27 pm 

ok, maybe more like this. if all i had was a 1 and a 0, and you had 2 and every other number after that at your discretion. add it take it away multiply it quantum it bend it but with me having the 1 and 0 i not only can have the same amount of spaces or integers in any amount.. 100101000101001110 is equal to in some fashion as 439564344599837755. i mean obviously they are different but are they? 18 digits. but i came to the same space and time with just 1 and 0. i am still lost in my own make believe world, but it is all i have. if nothing good comes from me then do everything opposite..lol.
what is the differense between the inside of me and the outside of me? nothing or everything? who am i to devide both worlds? where is my mind if not anywhere? the two most important things to me are both unreachable. I know i have a brain but my conscience resides somewhere that the universe resides if not the same thing. what good is the truth without a handful of lies to say it is. if God is everything and we do not know everything YET then we are ok for now. lol. but seriously, i cannot help but feel two zeros and only because i am one. when i go, too ME, neither one or zero exists. and if you guys are right and nothing does not exist then in that last moment will be as the first moment before i got here. all this and you exist because you exist to me. if was not hear to observe you then to whos concience do i owe? i am saying this for everyone and not just me. and i am wrong. and i know. but if i am then there is a right, and this is all i know.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Natural ChemE on February 11th, 2011, 8:19 pm 

xrisxs,

Please, know that I say this with a great deal of compassion: you seem very confused to me. A lot of the things that you say don't make sense, and some of the things that confuse you, in my personal opinion, should be very obvious.

I do not know why you are so confused. If your health is ill for one reason or another, it would seem prudent to go about improving it. Beyond this, and on the scientific end for which this board was intended, I would recommend that you start over from the beginning. Toss out the old, corrupted associations.

Think back to basic math. The kind that you learned in kindergarten and elementary school. We define a number line: zero, one, two, three, four, and so forth. We can use these numbers to count. You can't have a number, but you can have a number of something. The numbers aren't real; they merely tally things that are real.

Later, we learn addition and subtraction which allow us to count in a faster. These allow us to tally things that are real faster, sparing us from having to count up or down many times. Then we learn multiplication and division, which allow us to add things up faster and split things up. Then we learn modeling from word problems, where we start to relate what we see in the world in terms of numbers. We learn to describe real things with numbers, but we never mistake the numbers themselves for being real.

Zero of something is to not have tallied it, to not see it at all. This is the one and only meaning of zero. Anything that is this is zero. Anything that isn't this isn't zero. The idea of having two zeros doesn't even make sense; you can't possess two zeros anymore than you can possess two reds or two blues.

If you're confused, I'd suggest restarting from scratch, figuring it out again while tossing out the misconceptions. Keep in mind where concepts come from so that you'll clearly understand things like why "two zeros" doesn't make sense in the first place.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby neuro on February 12th, 2011, 2:14 am 

My impression is xrisxs is trying to deal with the problem of separation and interfaces.

And that he/she is dealing with it in a reverse fashion. For example he/she looks at what is "inside me" and what is "outside": 0 1 0, a one (me) separating two zeros (non-me), or a one (present, existing) separating two zeros (past and future, not existing - anymore or yet).

This is an epistemological misperception that leads to metaphysical misconceptions.

Whenever we consider two "things", or a limited "thing" with what is outside it, we conceptually generate a third element - the limit, the boundary, the interface. Such third element does not exist per se. Ontologically, that is the "zero" which separates two existing things (nonzeroes).

It is like considering the color of an apple. It has nothing to do with the apple itself: its color does not exist per se, it is a property that only arises when the apple (which exists) is put in relation with the rest of reality (which exists), i.e. EM waves (light) which generate the possibility of detecting this property (differentially absorbing/reflecting EM waves of different energy) and detectors (eye, photographic film...) which can recognize such property. But the color is the NON-EXISTING thing here (the zero): thinking that the color (1) separates two things which are no color (two 0's, apple and rest of reality) is a nonsense.

my two cents
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Fuqin on February 17th, 2011, 10:53 am 

Neuro I think alternatively we might consider that Xrisxs has perceived the mono-dimensionality of time, that is we can measure A To B in time but only when matter and space are present, if we strip away 2 out of three dimensions, time becomes one dimensional , therefore it is one dimension surrounded by none! Or a 1 amongst zeros , to illustrate this those whom are parents will often here a call from the back of the car “are we there yet” to which my reply is” we will never be there ,we can only be here” that bye’s about a half an hours silence.
So we have time 1, matter 0, space 0, or in Cartesian coordinates 0 is replaced by 1 where x,y,z all = 0 + infinity
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Natural ChemE on February 17th, 2011, 1:43 pm 

Fuqin,

What physical framework are you using? I ask because your statements are nonsense in the classical framework and I'm really not sure what framework that they would be accurate in.

If you assume 3-D space in the classical model, then you have four dimensions: three spacial and one temporal. If you constrain your focus to a single spacial dimension, or 1-D, then the model is reduced to two dimensions: one spacial and one temporal.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Fuqin on February 17th, 2011, 3:55 pm 

What physical framework are you using?
Natural ChemE sorry 3D space for me is the XYZ I referred to (Cartesian co ),temporal /time would be 4 , I was using 3D as a reduction of’ or annihilation of the ,( well what we understand as the) physical universe into nothing ,leaving only time , I might be wrong but if we subtract the things which give time meaning i.e. space and the things in it, then time alone just becomes a now , yes ,yes highly debatable , but I was wanting to get to the bottom of xrisxs’S inspiration for why he /she saw zeros around a one rather than how the standard mathematical paradigm which makes zero the locus and builds outward, for myself philosophically speaking I like things that flip the rules , so I’m endeavoring to uphold , however futilely the notion that the locus is all and the rest is zero , my example was confusing admittedly, however I was trying to picture a zero universe with a now only time frame at it center. If you cant understand me don’t worry I barely understand myself , most if my ideas are geometric / pictorial , I’m not much good with numbers and language
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 21st, 2011, 10:30 pm 

I appreciate the feed back. a gentleman earlier got on to me a bit in reference to my health. for your information i am about crazy. and fuqin, thanx whole heartedly for any defense at all. I come to these rooms for enlightenment and learning.
I see a blackhole as 1 zero and i see the sun as another but the sun is is always going through it and on this side of seeing it. but it is the other zero or will be. it used to be nothing then will soon some day be nothing. ok, if i take away 1 from one then i still have two. now I took one away from one. but one can never take one away and if so where did the energy go. you say we use numbers and i understand from kindegarten the numbers thing. but how can one take one away? tell me please. unless one is just a mirror of himself. from zero to ten is 9 numbers with 2 zeros. and yes, the one repeated himself. but it was the one that makes the zero two. how do you ever get from 10 to 20 without 2 zeros. her is my formula. 1 matter is equal to two nothings in same space but with no time. or nothing is only time and has no matter. i do not think i really mean to say two zeros. i know there is no such thing as a circle, and if this is so then this is a true defintion of nothing. if i draw a circle on a piece of paper i do two things..i trapped nothing on bothsides but i gave shape to nothing on the inside. notice when you draw this circle it is alot like a basketball. you can throw it anywhere but always in the middle will be nothing. one is being pushed by nothing that was created by something to be nothing. no energy gets used up it just gets recycled back and put in a better order next time. the moment the citcle is stretched to the point where all energy is equal to all things by warming all that is cold than nothing will force itself outward pushing us all back into a ball only to make 1d to a 2d, then when the the bitter ends are to heavy or the middle of time is absolute it becomes heavy and loops back on itself to do this all over agian. all smooth like. i still see 2 zeros. and thanx..
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 21st, 2011, 10:41 pm 

im just saying that i bet you a dollar to a dounut that a black hole swallows up time because there is not time in it. how could time exist in something does not exist. if i drew zero through ten in a circle like a clock. what you guys are saying is that if you do this then when you get around to the 10 then you simply use the zero you started with or another one?haha? or for kicks if you never draw the ten you simply use the 01 backwards for 10.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby linford86 on February 22nd, 2011, 1:53 am 

Okay, let's try this again. xrisxs, can you give me a simple, short explanation as to what zero is? How do you define the word?

From some of what you have said, I think it would be best if you define for us what you mean and then we can move on from there.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 22nd, 2011, 12:23 pm 

ok, if i go to plus one then the zero is negative to the one. but if i go to negative 1 then the zero is positive. but i am noticing that the zero depending on what side you are is different in its worth if nothing then a different direction. there fore on the same line the same zero has tow different meanings. but i want to in my head do it like this ..0-5-4-3-2-1+2+3+4+5+0
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby linford86 on February 22nd, 2011, 1:20 pm 

If I put an apple onto a table, and you and I stand on opposite sides (with my back to the table and you facing the table), do we have two different apples? I mean, the apple is in front for you and in back for me. If the answer is no, that there is actually only one apple, then I submit to you that the apple is completely analogous to zero in the example you just gave.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 22nd, 2011, 2:39 pm 

well if i am looking at the apple and your not then your still in the same direction as me. you and are in the same travel. you and i can eat off the same apple in a car. but if you and i wanted to eat the same apple in two different cars going in two different directions then either one of us getting apples or we have to half it. but if we both have to have the apple then we have to split it. it then becomes two. i just think the ONE makes all the difference in the world.
hey, i call uncle. I think I will just go dig a hole and put my head in it. thanx all for the feed back.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 28th, 2011, 7:23 pm 

not to ramble on this killed subject I kind of relate the blackhole in all galaxies and the outside of the galaxy as the two zeros. if all the suns in a galaxy send out energy then inward they all have a point where they come too sooner or later and in this middle is a black hole equal to the galaxy around it. if a galaxy beside us has a smaller black hole in its center then I would suspect that the galaxy is also smaller. it is easy for us to see the inner zero because enough time has passed for us to see it. One we are from it and second we have developed the abblilty to see it. But we are right beside the other zero but we cannot see it because it will always be the ooposite of the inner one.
If every son has a piece of it going in the center of this galaxy like all the other suns then that middle has to be equal if not the same as what makes it. As to say i bet the black hole in the center of our galaxy has something to do with everything we have done. outward all the suns shine outward like 99.9 percent but 1 percent is always towards the center. I still see zeros even though i know they are not technically. I would like to call them too sides of never and always. our black hole is like an egg with force on all sides only equal to the sum of all energies coming in on it. I bet it swirls like in the pictures because if it is taking in then somewhere it is kicking something out. Now if all the suns are coming in on the center then all the suns at this point have the same time as to say no time. if light ends in the middle, it is because it has no where to go but the dark energy stays there or something. If I was a computer I would be where all the information was coming in. As to say if i could go to the black hole I would know everything that has ever happened any whee in this galaxy. So yea, thanx alot..
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby linford86 on February 28th, 2011, 8:54 pm 

You're not making sense at all....
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby xrisxs on February 28th, 2011, 9:35 pm 

all i am saying is even in our math we use for whatever if there are two sides two a zero then by golly there has to be two reasons for it. how can i just use a zero going positive for positive numbers if what i was doing was something negative.
I have always looked forward. I have never looked backwards. If I turn around to see what is behind me I am still looking forward. now if I were to find away to see forward but backwards what could I see? Myself. this is the only time i can see myself. I will never see myself going forward. i am not meant to see what is behind me. to me behind me although i know it is a fake tree and a chair it is to any other answer than what is in front of me. whats in front of me is never and never what is behind me. But if i want to know what is behind me then how can i use the same information to get what you get forward to use what i get back ward. two different directions call for two zeros. After doing some research i put Negative zero and Positve zero. signed zero comes up. It seems as though I was already beat. I will admit after reading all about the many uses of two zeros i was still like i am now. useless to the knowledge it gave me. But I do however know now I knew I knew. If i am looking at the sun i can never ever be looking at my shadow. and vise versa. As a laugh, I like to look at my shadow and pretend the sun is telling me, This is who you are without me. you have two stories. who you are, and who your not?
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby linford86 on February 28th, 2011, 9:47 pm 

Zero is neither positive nor negative. Rather, you should see it as the number which separates the two and which doesn't actually sit on one side or the other. The fact that as we move along the negative numbers we get closer to zero, and we move farther away from zero as we move along the positive numbers, only tells you that zero is the thing that separates the two groups.

Xct already proved to you that the number zero is unique; i.e. in elementary algebra we cannot have more than one zero.

The stuff you wrote about always looking forward, etc, is nearly incomprehensible to me. It sounds more like New Age pseudo-philosophical sophistry than any thing substantive or explicative.
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Re: is it possible to have two zeros?

Postby Natural ChemE on March 8th, 2011, 3:40 am 

xrisxs,

I'm afraid that I agree with Linford; what you're saying does not make any sense. This thread will be locked.
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