An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

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An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby narnug on March 15th, 2012, 1:32 pm 

Hey.

I want to ask you if the following thoughts of mine are old or new and your opinion on them. I have not found anything to read about this except two recent sites with no signature where similar thoughts are put up. Knowing that I am not the only one struggling with these thoughts gave me the final courage I needed to ask all of you who know so much more then I do.

Ever since I came to this conclusion myself I think this is fascinating and really want to read about it or discuss this if it has never been investigated. If this is old I am sorry for wasting your time and at the same time ask you to point out to me where I can read about this.

(I apologize but I don’t know all the scientific phrases and words so I just have to use my own.)

I want to start by sharing my thoughts of a free fall (1) and a spot of light on a tensile screen (2). They are not the main issue but help me moving my thoughts unchanged to the reader (I think and hope).

1:
When a body falls here on Earth we could say it is falling in 2 dimension, from point A to point B (please stay with me it is just to explain). Space is increasing between the body and point A and decreasing between the body and the center of mass it is falling towards, point B.
If the body would fall in 3 dimension space would be increasing from all directions and the center of the body itself would be the center of the „fall“.

2:
Think of a spot of light in the center of a tensile screen. It lights up a certain proportion of the screen. Now the screen is stretched out. While being stretched the screen‘s matter moves from the center of the light in all directions. When the screen is fully stretched the spot of light is just as big as it was in first place but lights up less portion of the screen. Some of the matter the screen is made of and was lid up before is not lid up now.

Like I wrote these were just thoughts I think might be important to avoid misunderstanding.

Now I will explain my main thoughts. I will use sizes but they are just to explain and have no importance and can be replaced with any other size.

-----

Imagine a universe (sphere/bubble shaped). Like ours, it is as large as it has to be at all times and it has the same physical laws as our universe.

In this universe there is nothing but a few ping pong balls. They are all completely still and have no forces influencing them. All except two are tight together and form a cube. The other two are placed at two opposite sides of the cube, one 5 meters away from center of the cube formation and the other 10 meters away from the center of the cube formation (15 meters between them and the cube there between). Since nothing is moving in this universe it has three known sizes. 15, 20 and 30 meters in diameter. We will focus on the cube as center making it 20 meters in diameter.

For a reason not relevant the ping pong ball that is further away from the cube starts to move directly away from it. It moves 10 meters until it stops. Now the imagined world is 40 meters in diameter from our view.

I see two possible outcomes for our imagined universe after the movement of this one ping pong ball.

Outcome nr. 1:

Everything is the same apart from the known size of it and some distances.

Outcome nr. 2:

The ping pong ball that was 5 meters from the cube‘s centre and did not move is now 10 meters away from the centre of the cube. And the cube is no longer a cube but a sphere.

I don’t have to explain outcome nr 1.

In outcome nr. 2 I see that the following could have happened.

Since the thought up universe is always as large as it needs to be nothing was added to it, it just stretched when an object in it moved. The ping pong ball that was 5 meters away but did not move due to external forces moved because it kept its primary occupied space. It moved in right proportions to its position and the total expansion of the universe.

The cube is now a sphere because the ping pong balls that made it kept their primary occupied space as a whole. But since they were a whole but not a single object they had to fall into the centre of their primary occupied space as it expanded and became larger. As they fell they fell in the most simple way possible and ended there for up as a sphere. They fell in 3d and space was increasing from the center point out in all directions like the stretchable screen did from the spot of light. Some space that was occupied before is now empty because it stretched like the screen but the ping pong balls did not (like some matter of the screen is not lid up any more) .

------------------

I don’t know if this is right or wrong. But if outcome nr. 2 was to happen it would explain allot to me regarding our universe. I would understand why "things" with no mass like light move and why light speed is top speed. How the known universe can be 92 billion light-years in diameter when it is only 13,7 billion years old. How time is just a measuring scale but not an individual thing. It would explain gravity and why light bends in it. Why light stretches when travelling far. And so many other things. It even opens up very understandable theories for other things, like black holes and more.

I ask you to be gentle with me. This might be the first thing you learned in university. I never got the chance to attend that class. If you know this is childish nonsense could you point out what I can read to help me see the flaws of my thoughts? Or even better, share with me the magic sentence : )

All my best

narnug
Last edited by narnug on March 15th, 2012, 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 15th, 2012, 2:33 pm 

No idea is useless IMO.

I think you are taking vast leaps of faith here but the idea is a nice one. Not quite sure I fully understand your proposed ping pong world so I would really like to hear this with more information because in my mind this is just a sketchy outline and I cannot see all of it at once :(

I have only read it a couple of times but will come back to this later and try to get to grips with your idea.

Thanks for sharing :)
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby narnug on March 15th, 2012, 5:30 pm 

Thanks for your reply Badger Jelly.

Believe me when I tell you that I know what you mean when you say that I am "taking vast leaps of faith".

I was ashamed of it at first but am not now. I had to discover all the basic laws of Newton before I realized I could have read about them. I wanted to bang my head against a wall at that time. But that was many years ago and I have learned to censor my self since then.

I know where the "leap of faith" lies if it is there. I have isolated it and come to the conclusion that it does not have to be a leap of faith, just another point of view. But I wont talk about it now. I want to see first if someone gets what I mean.

I made one mistake in my text. Most likely because English is not my native language. But I can not edit it any more so I want to tell you about it. I wrote:

snip
In this universe there is nothing but a few ping pong balls. They are all completely still and have no forces influencing them. All except two are tight together and form a cube. The other two are placed at two opposite sides of the cube
snip

The other two should have been: The two whom are not in the cube formation and I ask moderators to allow me to change it if possible. This could make you think that the balls are only four. But their number is irrelevant as long as we have many enough to make a nice cube and a sphere and two more, one on each side.

If you have any questions that might help me move my images and thoughts over to you I will be happy to answer.

All my best

narnug
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 15th, 2012, 6:09 pm 

I'll come back to this for sure. Sounds really intriguing.

As for feeling stupid you should feel the opposite. Not having previous knowledge of a subject means you have completely fresh eyes and that is PRICELESS!! Yeah maybe half of the stuff you come up with will seem stupid when you realise your mistake but its more than worth it because of the slight chance you might stumble on something no one else has considered because they are TOLD what is right and wrong in the world of science.

Without people like this (Einstein) guess where the human race would be? .... it wouldn't be.

A fresh new and original thought can literally change the face of the planet and that's where computers come from :P I'll have to make that into a bedtime story for kids :D
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 16th, 2012, 5:58 am 

I need much more of an in depth explanation. I have just a gist of what you are saying and will try and interpret it now so you can explain better to me ... here goes!

You are saying imagine a universe that has "something" outside of it which is completely the opposite of general scientific opinion but I am with you on exploring the consequences.

I also read that you are looking at an alternative idea to general relativity and the space-time continuum. Is this correct? This is why I am intrigued.

I guess my biggest concerns here are what are the ping pong balls? Matter? Energy? Space? and what does the tensile screen represent and what does the light source represent? You have designed a self contained system that has an outside influence. Is this intentional or just a way to to represent a gravity well?

I basically don't get what you are getting at so please give a more in depth explanation and I hope this will help you to get your point across to me better. :)
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby narnug on March 16th, 2012, 7:50 am 

BadgerJelly wrote:I need much more of an in depth explanation. I have just a gist of what you are saying and will try and interpret it now so you can explain better to me ... here goes!

You are saying imagine a universe that has "something" outside of it which is completely the opposite of general scientific opinion but I am with you on exploring the consequences.

I also read that you are looking at an alternative idea to general relativity and the space-time continuum. Is this correct? This is why I am intrigued.

I guess my biggest concerns here are what are the ping pong balls? Matter? Energy? Space? and what does the tensile screen represent and what does the light source represent? You have designed a self contained system that has an outside influence. Is this intentional or just a way to to represent a gravity well?

I basically don't get what you are getting at so please give a more in depth explanation and I hope this will help you to get your point across to me better. :)


Thanks for giving me a chance BadgerJelly. I tried to ask some physicists for some months ago and only mentioned the 3 dimension fall and they kind of stoned me right away. So I ran off. I have since then tried to figure this out on my own, but cant. Now I realize that this is more of a philosophy since there is no math or anything like that. It is just a thought. So thanks. I will try to explain my thoughts better.

1. The imagined universe has nothing out side of it. That is hard. But what is outside of our universe? Think of a universe just like ours is today. But all the matter is completely still (no expansion). You travel to the rock that is furthest away from everything and stop beside it (might say it is on the edge). What is beyond that point is nothing. Now you travel further and you leave the "last rock" behind you. By doing that you made the universe larger then it was before. You gave the nothing a size. You did not add size to the universe, you made it larger (expansion). Our universe is the only thing we have. We cant add to it, we don't have anything to add to it. Could also say that the universe does not expand/grow like a tree. There are no year rings. When it expands all of it expands.

2. Hope I dont disappoint you but I am not suggesting an alternative to general relativity and space time continuum, unless I misunderstand it. Trying to understand it was one of the things that lead me to thinking this way. I just felt there was something missing. I think many do (dark matter for example). I think I am more going into the direction that space-time is the result of expanding space with matter in it. If space expands it is getting larger. The matter in it does not change size. Constantly matter occupies less proportion of space. I am looking at the possibility that if space is expanding (like the tensile screen stretching) and matter is occupying it then space does not expand where matter is occupying it, it is occupied with matter so there is no space there. That would cause a falling effect to the center of the occupied space. Bend it in a way. (dot know how I did here, F- hehe).

3. The ping pong balls are suppose to represent matter. I chose them because they are full of space, like we. I don't like using heavy massive simile when I am trying to understand this. It doesn't make the whole picture right. The tensile screen is space. The point of light is suppose to represent matter occupying part of space. When the tensile screen stretches it, of course, gets larger. That does not effect the size of the spot of light. After the stretch the spot lights up less proportion of the screen (space expands but not matter). If I would have used a painted spot instead of light it would have expanded when the screen is stretched.

I know you need energy to move things in space. So why do I suggest that the ball that did not move moved anyways? It was occupying certain space. When all the space expanded (because of the 10 meter movement of the other ball) it would have moved if it stayed in the same distance from the cube. That is because then it would not have occupied the same space it did before. I see that as a clear violation of all known physical laws.

I cant see where I am adding outside influence. If you think of you again beside the "last" rock at the "edge " of the universe looking into.........nothing. You cant make any size of it. There is nothing there. And if you go there you take everything with you causing expansion in multiple power. I think I am more kind of thinking of space in another or a new way. Thinking that it's nature of being nothing really has more consequences than we have thought (at least I). Thinking that maybe space is our dark matter. That might be the flaw of my thoughts or why I am having so much trouble explaining my self. The thought of the "small" universe is the only thing. It has no outside. It is always as large as it needs to be, never smaller and never larger. If one thing in it moves away from the other, it gets larger. It does not take that "space" from anywhere else, there is nothing else. It just expands as it needs to. It is made of nothing so it can get as large as it needs, and vice versa, without adding anything to it or taking anything from it. The small universe I wrote about was my most simple way trying to describe gravity as the result of space expanding when matter in it does not, yes. I know this seems childish but I cant see the flaw. And this would help explain to me so much more that we witness daily but don't have a clue about what is going on.

I realize that I maybe created a suitable solution to my questions. But I cant see if this is right or if this is just a creation since I don't have any means of proofing it right or wrong. Since space is nothing there is no way to do any kind of experiments that I can think of. At least not under the influence of gravity which means that only ghosts could have the possibility to carry out some kind of an experiment in vacuum. This would explain how and why our universe is expanding faster and faster.

Wrong or right, I now understand all the thoughts and debates about if light is waves or photons. If space is empty or Ether. If time is an individual thing or a sequence. So I guess I haven't wasted my time completely. Hope I did not waste yours with my mixture of unfamiliarity and curiosity. If you can point out something to read that would help me understand this if you know I am wrong I would be grateful.

Thanks again BadgerJelly

All my best

narnug
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 16th, 2012, 9:10 am 

Ok I have only got halfway down but you have stumbled onto something quite significant philosophically I believe and it reminds me of one of my own ideas and one which I read about not too long ago.

Its obvious you don't understand the current way the scientific community generally interpret the universe and how space-time works and it has led you down an interesting path.

For starters when the universe expands space-time expands with it because it is it and its the same for matter or so it appears ...

When you move in one direction in the space-time continuum you will eventually end up back in the same place much like you would moving around the surface of the earth. Now what this says is that all is one and that there is nothing else "outside" the universe because outside the universe is everything.

Anyway regardless of this we have the very basic elements at play and these are Time, Space and Energy. Now it does look like these are all just representations of the same thing. Matter could almost be described as acting like a condensation on a space time plane where its actual mass causes an indentation on the space-time plane causing what we call gravity wells.
The other way that I heard of interpreting this that I found similar to one of my own ideas is that the universe is almost like a film. Not in the sense we are all actors but in the way that we watch TV. The "moving" pictures are not actually moving and this got me onto thinking what if the universe worked under the same principles? What if when I moved my hand it didn't LITERALLY move but raw data was merely being passed on through the medium that is the substance of the universe?

After reading around and annoying my mates with this idea I spotted something in a journal about how a physicist had come up with almost this exact idea in relation to how singularities happen. Basically if "information" (Matter, energy, space) falls into a black hole the data is lost! For scientists this is like finding out that God really does exist after all because our brains cannot cope with the idea of nothing only vaguely imagine it.
What this guy came along with and suggested is that maybe the "information" is spread across the event horizon almost like data on a film slide. This is a serious mind twister for both physicists and philosophers alike! :S

Now back to your idea here you can probably see that there is a lot more to take into consideration but it certainly leads down a intriguing path. The thought that the very fabric of space/time is expanding but matter does not is a really interesting one and I would love to know the implications of this.

As for space being nothing that is just not true. If space is nothing the how do you bend it? One thing your little ping pong world does is give a good example of what "God" could be (I'm not religious btw just only familiar word to use in this context. To me God means unknown force). You imagine a universe where everything is still and not expanding with balls of matter in it. THIS is an amazing thought and what really intrigued me because it hit home with my own conclusions. In this universe if matter doesn't move it has no energy other than itself but the space between them has no meaning because with no movement there is not time and if there is no time there is no space or matter. The entire universe we assume by our perceptual logic would be static and unchanging for eternity but it would still exist but need an outside force to breath action into it and create a time-space continuum.

Its an interesting line of thought for certain. And its worth noting that people like Darwin came up with their theories by observation and reasoning alone. Evolution was later proven to be almost 100% true through the world of genetics, zoology, anthropology and many others too I expect.

You have a brilliant mind because you are asking questions which is something everyone should be doing al of the time instead of just accepting what they hear or read as absolute proof and logic.
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby narnug on March 17th, 2012, 5:26 am 

Hey

I think I knew before where the leap of faith lies if it is there. It is the characteristic I gave to space.

In my struggle to understand space-time continuum did I give space a quality it does not have?

Might it be that I understood space-time continuum in my own way and am explaining it kind of from behind, or in a naive way since for my thoughts to add up the universe needs motion/time/sequence to function and interact with space to make it expand which again creates the effect of a 3d fall/gravity.

Maybe this is just waaayyyy out of my league.
I know I am not the smartest one walking the Earth. And I have always had the tendency of seeing everything in another way. It is a double edged sword.

All my best

Narnug
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 17th, 2012, 7:06 am 

You basically are doing exactly what you have said BUT there is no reason to assume your idea is not more accurate than Einsteins.

Also throw the idea of intelligence out of the window. Its pretty stupid! Humans are really complex and so is the world we are part of so you get people who can do seriously complicated math in their head EASY but when asked where the north star is they say directly over their heads ... its all about reasoning and logic the hard work is the studying and trying to think of a way to test your hypothesis in the real world.

Darwin had, what I regard, as equally important theory as Einstein because the perspective was new. Relativity itself its the very idea of how ideas are made in a way. Its all about perspective relative to other perspectives. The more "stupid" you think you are the more wisdom you have. The more you find out the less the can potentially know. People who think they have the answers are for the opposite reason lack wisdom.

And yeah I know this sounds like a contradiction to you but that's because my perspective is different an it makes perfect sense to me ... is it correct? No idea but I have faith in my limited knowledge as everyone else does.

Well this may interest you just don't get sucked into pointless self analysis (Unless you fancy the gamble?) and use the information to understand why you and others find ot difficult to understand each other. Its all to do with relative perspectives. If more people would actually pay attention to everything more then things would be much better all around I believe.

You should still explore your idea. Einstein started by asking himself what the universe would look like if he could ride a beam of light and from this one thought sprouted E-mc and generally relativity.

What do you think about the things I have mentioned here? Have your thought about how your idea would work in its "flawed"universe? Maybe you way you imagine a spot light can be applied in some way to help explain something completely unrelated?
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby narnug on March 18th, 2012, 6:28 am 

Hey BagderJelly

I have read that when most of those who have been looked at as intelligent by their fellow humans have been asked "what makes you intelligent" they almost all answer "being kind to others".

You are very intelligent BagderJelly.

I have been struggling with these thoughts of mine for a year now, completely stuck. When I have sought help or opinions I most of the time have had no replies or been stoned for my "stupidity".

By showing understanding and patience and giving me few of your minutes you helped me. I owe you one.

I saw what was wrong, thanks to you. You gently pushed me forward. And not only that, your positive attitude let me hold on my thoughts for a little longer after I saw the flaw and I could develop it further. I kind of got to the next level. Now I am not saying that I am right, I am just saying that it is no reason not to explore it a little further, like you pointed out.

Thank you BagderJelly. I will share with you where you lead me if you are interested.

----------------------------

If the world would expand in the way I was thinking we could not see that what is "behind" us.

Instead of giving it up I thought a little about this flaw. And then I saw it. I might just finally reached the point in understanding space-time continuum, but I think I am still looking at it from behind/up down. And I am going to do it as long as I see no flaws in it.

Our world is not 3 dimensional, it is 4 dimensional. Time is not the 4th dimension, it is the illusion of a 4 dimensional world.

I have seen the 4th dimension as a space within space for some time now. But it is more, I see it now. It is space that can be occupied by everything at the same moment. Kind of like two houses built/standing on the same spot. The houses "see" each other but they can not understand that they are standing on the same spot and by seeing each other they experience that they can travel to each other. There we have the illusion of time.

There is more, the expansion. This is all fresh so I am still exploring it.

To have a 2 dimension you need 1st dimension. To have a 3 dimension you need 1st and 2nd dimension. It is like building blocks. Our world of 4 dimension is built on 1st 2nd and 3rd dimension. The 3rd dimension might be expanding like my original thoughts were. That could cause the same effects I started with but still allow us to see what is "behind" us.

Our universe could be a very very small place if it is a 4 dimensional universe. And only a tiny expansion in the 3rd building block could cause us to experience expansion at speeds almost unimaginable.

Einstein once suggested that gravity could be some kind of a "time loop" (at leas I read it). He was maybe right there if the universe is in 4d but not 3d.

This is exciting. I will now continue exploring this for my enjoyment. And this fits in the puzzles I have been finding/creating. Following is a text I wrote for about a year ago. If you understand what I mean above then you can see that the thoughts were leading me to this. It is not perfect, I know, but lead me here. You can jump to the last line, it says enough.

-------------------------------
Time

With the Nothing there came time.
Time can only exist in space. If there is no space there is no time. Time is not an individual thing. It is the result of space.
Time like we understand it does really not exist. Time is only a measurement we have like meters, feet, ounces, litres, degrees and so on. Time measures the movement of matter in space.
Time is the only three dimensional measuring scale we have.
Without time matter would be stuck in space. It could not move around in this big Nothing. But matter can always move in space. That indicates time is a measurement but not an individual thing.
You can not stop time, but for you time can stop. You cannot go forward or backwards in time because it does not exist individually. You cannot even travel in time in theory. But you can see most things through time, not all. If there is any interest I can explain that later.
Memories are the cause for why we think of time like we do. We are no less than a miracle. We are matter that can register position of matter in this Nothing and use that data later. But that is all memories are. Registering position of surten matter at a surten place in space, not time. Take a pen and put it on a table. Look at it for a moment and then move it. Then look at it again. You remember when the pen was in another place. Your mind registered it. The time it was there was a measurement.
Time slows down when you travel fast. The faster you travel the more time slows down. This is because if you travel very very fast you are a tiny bit closer to being everywhere in the Nothing at the same time. And since time is a measurement of matter moving in the Nothing it shows lower measurements when you travel very fast because if you could be everywhere at the same “moment” you could not register your movement in space.

When you reach the speed of light time stops. That is because at that speed you reach the point of being at two places in space at the same “moment” and that is not possible so time stops. Why time stops is because the matter or energy moving at light speed cannot have any movement within itself and there for there is not possible to register movement within that matter or energy. Speed of light might somehow indicate the “real size” of our universe
-----------------------------


Thanks again BagderJelly

All my best

narnug
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Re: An imagined universe and ping pong balls.

Postby BadgerJelly on March 18th, 2012, 9:43 am 

you humble me!

I would certainly love to here any ideas or thoughts you may have ... I will re read your last post a few times before commenting but feel free to steam on anyway or I might just end up destroying a fresh idea you have before you think of it.

I don't know if you know what I mean? We are all influenced and sometimes if we take one path we close off another from ourselves ... there is usually someone else to come along in the future to the same cross roads but if they have already been told one way they may not see the other way so clearly.

I like to think of it as relative consciousness.
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