Does our Solar System wander?

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Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 2nd, 2016, 8:35 am 

Lisa Randall is very careful about explaining when she is speculating and when she is dealing out fact. But this one has me wanting to ask for comment. I'm not quite sure which she is doing here. It sounds like fact.

I know our solar system is in one of the arms of our galaxy. Lisa Randall seems to be saying, though, that our solar system travels around the galaxy from one position to another and even crosses the disk (center?). This is new to me. Do solar systems wander around their galaxies?

Would someone please comment? Thank you.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 11:25 am 

Hi Viv,

Our solar system orbits the center of the Milky-Way Galaxy like Planets orbit the Sun except that the concentration of Gravity (Dark Matter?) creates an extra incentive to migrate to the edgewise cross-section of the Milky-Way. I show a crude disk model of our Galaxy below seen from an edge on view. The cross section is shown as a Green line and the path of the Solar System is a wave (Red line) that crosses above and below the center plane as it travels in a circular orbit around the Galaxy, a path not unlike a Horse on a Carousel.

Galaxy.jpg
Crude representation of Solar System Path in Red

Sorry for the crude graphic but I hope it gets the idea across.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 2nd, 2016, 11:41 am 

Thank you, Dave. Lisa Randall had that same drawing but she did not give the detail you do. I am not getting it yet but I will. I need to get my vision crosswise as you describe it. It will come to me with concentration.

The horses on the carousel do not cross over the center. I think you and LR are saying our solar system does cross over the center. Am I right? Or through the center? I think she said "through". Not sure. Shall read that again.

You mentioned dark matter. That is the point she is making. Do you mean a concentration of gravity within Dark Matter? where Dark Matter is heavier, it has more gravity?

Thanks again. Let me think. A good way to spend a cold day.

Edit: Oh! What if I turn a plate on edge?
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 11:58 am 

Hi Viv,

Basically, we maintain the same distance from the Black Hole at the center of our Galaxy, like a Horse on a Carousel never get any closer or further from the center axis of spin. But the Horse does bob up and down as it goes around. Imagine if we kept going in a straight line on the up swing.. we would leave the top of the Galaxy and with nothing above and the bulk below, we are drawn back into the disk.. heading for the bottom of the Galaxy. If we kept going we would emerge from the bottom of the Galaxy and the bulk would be above us, thus drawing us back up into the bulk again.. creating an Up-Down Wave as we go around and around the center of the spin/orbit axis.

Or in other words.. hold your arms out like a "T" and spin in a circle. Look at the ring on your finger.. pretend that's us. Now flap your arms up and down a bit while still spinning.. now look at the path of your ring. Warning: attempting this demonstration may subject you to disorientation and dizziness.. I take no responsibility for anything that breaks..lol.

It's rather likely most of the Solar Systems do this.. but have not really dug much into the details.

Edit: Quick note.. the Gravity effects between Stars is almost zero, Stars are spaced too far apart for them to have much Gravitational effect on each other.. that's where Dark Matter comes into play. It acts like a glue to hold everything together. My Personal Theory is that Dark Matter doesn't exist, it's a Space-Time Density effect.. but that's just between you and me..lol.

Best wishes and Happy New Year..
Dave :^)
Last edited by Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 2nd, 2016, 12:18 pm 

Dave_Oblad » January 2nd, 2016, 10:58 am wrote:Hi Viv,

Basically, we maintain the same distance from the Black Hole at the center of our Galaxy, like a Horse on a Carousel never get any closer or further from the center axis of spin. But the Horse does bob up and down as it goes around. Imagine if we kept going in a straight line on the up swing.. we would leave the top of the Galaxy and with nothing above and the bulk below, we are drawn back into the disk.. heading for the bottom of the Galaxy. If we kept going we would emerge from the bottom of the Galaxy and the bulk would be above us, thus drawing us back up into the bulk again.. creating an Up-Down Wave as we go around and around the center of the spin/orbit axis.

Or in other words.. hold your arms out like a "T" and spin in a circle. Look at the ring on your finger.. pretend that's us. Now flap your arms up and down a bit while still spinning.. now look at the path of your ring. Warning: attempting this demonstration may subject you to disorientation and dizziness.. I take no responsibility for anything that breaks..lol.

It's rather likely most of the Solar Systems do this.. but have not really dug much into the details.

Best wishes and Happy New Year..
Dave :^)



Oh! I am mis-reading/mis-translating "disk". I was thinking of the disk as that center, thicker part of the galaxy. I don't know that ours has this. Oval galaxies have, I think. They are thicker in the center. Maybe they aren't called disks.

So, the disk we are talking about is still the outer edge or close by and our system is moving through that, above and below.

Thank you, Dave. I have it -- unless you come back and tell me I'm still wrong. :-(
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 12:51 pm 

Hi Viv,

I think you got it. There are two basic shapes, of which the disk is most common for a full sized Galaxy. Yes, they tend to be thicker near the center and thinner near the edges. The other type are basically clusters of stars, pretty much in a cloud or ball shape. I should imagine (but not sure) that the paths of individual Stars in those is mostly circular around the center but each on their own individual tracks.. so to speak. Otherwise, it would seem logical that these globular clusters should collapse eventually.

I wonder if the Mass Concentration or Black Holes in the center is the force that shapes a Galaxy into Spiral Disks based on the Spin of the major Black Hole center or.. multiple Black Holes in some bizarre orbitals at the center of a Globular cluster that prevents them from becoming disks?

Anyone know what the latest explanation(s) are for these two shapes?

Regards,
Dave :^)

Ps. Viv, I added an edit when we cross posted above.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 2nd, 2016, 1:01 pm 

Good! Got that right, thanks to you. One thing I did learn from LR's book: Galaxies formed before stars formed. I always thought just the opposite: stars forming and then pulling together into galaxies.

Interesting question about their shapes. I'll bet it's related to amount of gravitational pull.

Wild guessing is my specialty. :-)
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 1:18 pm 

Hi Viv,

Einstein predicted the twisting of Space-Time Fabric around a spinning body of Mass. This was confirmed with a lengthy experiment called Gravity Probe-B. A probe orbiting the Earth measured the twist in our local Space-Time. Science likes to call this Frame Dragging. I prefer the Twisting in the Fabric of Space-Time. Thus a spinning Black Hole may create a twist in the Fabric of Space-Time creating the Spiral Galaxy shape, since, as already stated, the Gravitational effects between Stars alone is almost not worth mentioning. Call it Frame-Dragging on a humongous scale..lol. Again.. just guess work on my part.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/

Regards,
Dave :^)

Ps. Heading to bed.. been up all night watching the Tube.. bye.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 2nd, 2016, 1:47 pm 

Dave_Oblad » January 2nd, 2016, 12:18 pm wrote:Hi Viv,

Einstein predicted the twisting of Space-Time Fabric around a spinning body of Mass. This was confirmed with a lengthy experiment called Gravity Probe-B. A probe orbiting the Earth measured the twist in our local Space-Time. Science likes to call this Frame Dragging. I prefer the Twisting in the Fabric of Space-Time. Thus a spinning Black Hole may create a twist in the Fabric of Space-Time creating the Spiral Galaxy shape, since, as already stated, the Gravitational effects between Stars alone is almost not worth mentioning. Call it Frame-Dragging on a humongous scale..lol. Again.. just guess work on my part.

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/04may_epic/

Regards,
Dave :^)

Ps. Heading to bed.. been up all night watching the Tube.. bye.


I have my own theory abut black holes but no scientist in his right mind would ever accept it. So, I keep my thoughts to myself. Safer that way. :-)

And space/time is so far over my head that I am not even thinking of reaching for it. Add to that that scientists are now destroying my long-held beliefs about gravity. The last dream/nightmare I had, it was turning into dark matter. :-(

Get some rest. Work day cometh.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 2nd, 2016, 8:27 pm 

Hi Viv,

Here is a rather neat Video showing some interesting facets regarding our Galaxy.



Best to all,
Dave :^)
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 8th, 2016, 9:55 am 

"So, the disk we are talking about is still the outer edge or close by and our system is moving through that, above and below." (Viv)

For the sake of another question that may follow, do scientists know whether we are at present above or below that disk?

And the other question: Assuming we are above the disk, will the people who are living when the Solar System is below the disk see an entirely different star pattern in the sky?

In fact, since plenty of other "Solar Systems" are also probably moving up and down through the disk, isn't it likely that the star patterns we see in our lifetimes will never be the same again?

A million years from now, no one will see Orion's belt or the Big Bear. They will see patterns we never saw. It all changes so slowly that we do not notice it but there is constant change as stars and their solar systems migrate. Does that sound right?

Just something I was dreaming about last night.
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 8th, 2016, 7:41 pm 

Hi Viv,

Being inside the disk makes it rather difficult to see the shape of the disk, but so far, seems Science has settled on the model that the Milky Way Galaxy has two spiral arms and we are between them, in a rather lower Star density position. Look at a Yoyo.. it has two centers. The center around which everything rotates (the hub) and the center slice cut (gap between the two hemispheres) that is edgewise that provides a path for winding a string.

I really doubt we move high or low enough to move far from that edgewise center.

A full cycle period for up and down is unknown to me at this time, but several million years per cycle is probably a decent guess. And yes, the night sky will look very different in a million years, both because of our up/down wave motion and the wave motion of other nearby Stars.

Our Sun makes a complete orbit around our Galaxy about every 200 million years.

Here is a view as might be seen from above our Galaxy (From Wikipedia):

Galaxy.JPG
Model view to see the spiral shape of our Galaxy and our location.

And here is an edgewise view looking towards the center from within our Milky Way Galaxy:

EdgeView.jpg
Night view of our Galaxy from inside our Galaxy.

Here is an interesting question: Given the top image as a view from above our Galaxy, would you say the Galaxy is spinning Clockwise or Counter-Clockwise? Think about it and look at the image....

Intuition says Clockwise.. but in many cases (viewed and measured) the Spiral can lead the Rotation in a Spiral Galaxy.. so intuition doesn't always apply...lol. So the shape of the Spiral really doesn't tell us which way the Galaxy is spinning. Ie: NGC 4662

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Does our Solar System wander?

Postby vivian maxine on January 9th, 2016, 9:16 am 

I almost thought you'd see more of the galaxy as a whole but fewer individual stars from above but that might not apply with adequate telescopes. All depends. You definitely get a better view of the shape of the galaxy. As to the stars, I don't know. Through the disk, of course, your view is of the stars. So, how did we learn we are in a spiral galaxy?

Clockwise or counter-clockwise? The "arms" with their cutting edges would take it counter-clockwise if they had anything to cut through. On the other hand, clockwise would be smoothing the arms and those ends be no more than tail ends. I was wondering if the bathtub drain would enlighten us but probably not as they say it is the opposite in the southern hemisphere.

Planets rotate clockwise but revolve counter-clockwise. Who knows what the entire system does? Take your choice.
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