From Stars to Mines

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From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 17th, 2016, 3:57 pm 

The elements are/were formed in stars, supernovae and maybe elsewhere. That much I know. The solid elements could have reached earth as meteorites, rocks, dust, anything solid. But what about the gasses? Helium, I know, is created here on Earth by the natural radiation decay of heavy radioactive elements such as thorium and uranium. But what about the other gasses? Are any others formed here? If they are still formed in the outer universe, how do they get here? I have done a lot of searching this morning but I'm not getting anywhere on this one. Thank you.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby Watson on May 17th, 2016, 8:42 pm 

Search 'primordial gases' but BB created hydrogen, helium and lithium which later coalesced into clouds, then further into stars. Heavier elements followed from stars. I'm pretty sure their not making any more helium.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby uninfinite on May 18th, 2016, 12:39 am 

Vivian,

Volcanoes are explosive because of gasses dissolved in molten rock under enormous pressure - released as it nears the surface - like fizzy drinks. Volcanic eruptions emit water vapor and toxic gases into the atmosphere:

'The principal components of volcanic gases are water vapor (H2O), carbon dioxide (CO2), sulfur either as sulfur dioxide (SO2) (high-temperature volcanic gases) or hydrogen sulfide (H2S) (low-temperature volcanic gases), nitrogen, argon, helium, neon, methane, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. Other compounds detected in volcanic gases are oxygen (meteoric), hydrogen chloride, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide, nitrogen oxide (NOx), sulfur hexafluoride, carbonyl sulfide, and organic compounds. Exotic trace compounds include mercury, halocarbons (including CFCs), and halogen oxide radicals.

Plants inhale carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen - and presumably there are similar processes by which these other gasses are broken down else the world would be poisoned by them. I think a lot of it takes place in the atmosphere - and is related to the ozone layer, but I can't be more specific as to the particular gasses you've asked about. Hope this helps.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 18th, 2016, 6:50 am 

Thank you, Watson. I shall search primordial gases. Are you thinking the Wiki article about helium being found in those natural gas mines is wrong? I did see another article that said we are running out of helium. We seem to be running out of a lot of things.

Uninfinite, that is a great run-down about the gases from volcanoes. Some of that about the volcanoes - especially about sulfur - is vaguely familiar. I think I'd heard that years ago. Sometimes we just forget our past learning, don't we? Last night I read that some gases are trapped in ice cores of meteorites. I also read how they think oxygen first came to Earth via bacterium. I'll have to look into these tidbits. I seem to be half-informed about them.

So, thank you also. I really did appreciate the review. .

At any rate, thank you very much.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby uninfinite on May 18th, 2016, 7:12 am 

vivian maxine » May 18th, 2016, 11:50 am wrote:Thank you, Watson. I shall search primordial gases. Are you thinking the Wiki article about helium being found in those natural gas mines is wrong? I did see another article that said we are running out of helium. We seem to be running out of a lot of things.

Uninfinite, that is a great run-down about the gases from volcanoes. Some of that about the volcanoes - especially about sulfur - is vaguely familiar. I think I'd heard that years ago. Sometimes we just forget our past learning, don't we? Last night I read that some gases are trapped in ice cores of meteorites. I also read how they think oxygen first came to Earth via bacterium. I'll have to look into these tidbits. I seem to be half-informed about them.

So, thank you also. I really did appreciate the review. .

At any rate, thank you very much.


Vivian, I am not certain about the bio-chemistry - but carbon dioxide is emitted in volcanic gasses, and cyanobacteria broke it down into carbon and di-oxygen. Look up 'anaerobic bacteria' - and the 'great oxygenation event'.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 18th, 2016, 7:16 am 

uninfinite » May 18th, 2016, 6:12 am wrote:
vivian maxine » May 18th, 2016, 11:50 am wrote:Thank you, Watson. I shall search primordial gases. Are you thinking the Wiki article about helium being found in those natural gas mines is wrong? I did see another article that said we are running out of helium. We seem to be running out of a lot of things.

Uninfinite, that is a great run-down about the gases from volcanoes. Some of that about the volcanoes - especially about sulfur - is vaguely familiar. I think I'd heard that years ago. Sometimes we just forget our past learning, don't we? Last night I read that some gases are trapped in ice cores of meteorites. I also read how they think oxygen first came to Earth via bacterium. I'll have to look into these tidbits. I seem to be half-informed about them.

So, thank you also. I really did appreciate the review. .

At any rate, thank you very much.


Vivian, I am not certain about the bio-chemistry - but carbon dioxide is emitted in volcanic gasses, and cyanobacteria broke it down into carbon and di-oxygen. Look up 'anaerobic bacteria' - and the 'great oxygenation event'.



I shall do so later today. Errands calling this morning while the rains pause to gather more water.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby Watson on May 18th, 2016, 8:35 am 

vivian maxine » Wed May 18, 2016 5:50 am wrote:Thank you, Watson. I shall search primordial gases. Are you thinking the Wiki article about helium being found in those natural gas mines is wrong? I did see another article that said we are running out of helium. We seem to be running out of a lot of things.

I seem to be half-informed about them.

No I wasn't thinking it was wrong, only it didn't seem to ring true, to things I read in the past. Helium may well come out of mines, but I'm sure it wasn't made in there. I think it was even written here about running out of He, but that is a local (earth) condition. The amount of He in the Universe is stable, as far as I know.
I think BB gave us H-75%, He-24% and Li-1%.

And Vivian, 'tis better to be half-informed and know it, than blissfully-uninformed.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 18th, 2016, 8:45 am 

Watson » May 18th, 2016, 7:35 am wrote:
vivian maxine » Wed May 18, 2016 5:50 am wrote:Thank you, Watson. I shall search primordial gases. Are you thinking the Wiki article about helium being found in those natural gas mines is wrong? I did see another article that said we are running out of helium. We seem to be running out of a lot of things.

I seem to be half-informed about them.

No I wasn't thinking it was wrong, only it didn't seem to ring true, to things I read in the past. Helium may well come out of mines, but I'm sure it wasn't made in there. I think it was even written here about running out of He, but that is a local (earth) condition. The amount of He in the Universe is stable, as far as I know.
I think BB gave us H-75%, He-24% and Li-1%.

And Vivian, 'tis better to be half-informed and know it, than blissfully-uninformed.


So true, Watson. Plus it means I still have the fun of learning more. I'll never get bored with life.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby bangstrom on May 28th, 2016, 6:05 am 

vivian maxine » May 17th, 2016, 2:57 pm wrote: Helium, I know, is created here on Earth by the natural radiation decay of heavy radioactive elements such as thorium and uranium. But what about the other gasses? Are any others formed here?


Radon is another gas produced within the earth by the decay of radium.

There is no large demand for helium so we are not “running out” of the gas. Much of it is allowed to go to waste but there is concern about a shortage of helium if we we ever have a need for helium in large quantities. We may some day need liquid helium as a coolant for superconducting magnets on magneticly levitated trains. This is less of a concern now than it was in the past because of the discovery of “high temperature” superconductors that can be sufficiently cooled by liquid nitrogen.

Helium is not a part of our lower atmosphere because it rises to the top and is stripped away by the solar wind. The Earth's gravity is not strong enough to maintain an atmosphere of helium. The same is true of hydrogen but hydrogen reacts with oxygen and returns as rain.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 28th, 2016, 10:09 am 

bangstrom » May 28th, 2016, 5:05 am wrote:
vivian maxine » May 17th, 2016, 2:57 pm wrote: Helium, I know, is created here on Earth by the natural radiation decay of heavy radioactive elements such as thorium and uranium. But what about the other gasses? Are any others formed here?


Radon is another gas produced within the earth by the decay of radium.

There is no large demand for helium so we are not “running out” of the gas. Much of it is allowed to go to waste but there is concern about a shortage of helium if we we ever have a need for helium in large quantities. We may some day need liquid helium as a coolant for superconducting magnets on magneticly levitated trains. This is less of a concern now than it was in the past because of the discovery of “high temperature” superconductors that can be sufficiently cooled by liquid nitrogen.

Helium is not a part of our lower atmosphere because it rises to the top and is stripped away by the solar wind. The Earth's gravity is not strong enough to maintain an atmosphere of helium. The same is true of hydrogen but hydrogen reacts with oxygen and returns as rain.


Thank you, bangstrom, for all the information - well worth knowing. About helium in our lower atmosphere, the article that I was reading did say it is found in our natural gas mines of TX, OK and KS. I can't prove it.

It has been very interesting learning how the elements evolve and come to Earth. It's something I'd never given thought to before. All I knew was that time changed one kind of rock to another - metamorphic rocks, that is.

Have a good day.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby Watson on May 28th, 2016, 11:04 am 

I was looking into the demand and came across interesting information about US hoarding He since WW1, and how they plan to dispose of the precious gas, now that it is no longer needed for military uses.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/deman ... le/2567976

And this is the effect on the scientific community by such mishandling of the above.
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/feds-creat ... g-science/
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 28th, 2016, 11:17 am 

Watson » May 28th, 2016, 10:04 am wrote:I was looking into the demand and came across interesting information about US hoarding He since WW1, and how they plan to dispose of the precious gas, now that it is no longer needed for military uses.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/deman ... le/2567976

And this is the effect on the scientific community by such mishandling of the above.
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/feds-creat ... g-science/


I don't know about "they" (USA military) but I find that every time I throw out or give away something I no longer need, I need it the next day. :-(
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby zetreque on May 28th, 2016, 1:07 pm 

Reading this thread I had a vision of a poster that shows relationships between elements being formed and decaying so I googled "origin of elements poster" birth of elements, etc... nothing.

That would be such a cool project. And not just elements forming in stars, but other natural planetary and biological actions. If anyone finds a graphic of this, please post it.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 28th, 2016, 2:18 pm 

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160115 ... us-to-find

I cannot find an article that reads quite as I remember the story but this serves, I think. All the way through it speaks of physicists who "made an element". A few times it uses the word "discover" but usually it is "made" or "created". It seems to me we studied 92 (or was it 96?) elements. Now there are 118 and counting. I would love to find the story behind the new ones. How did they come about?

Quoting from the article: "Since the 1930s, physicists have made dozens of new chemical elements. Could these discoveries continue forever?"

Note the mix of "made" and "discoveries". In my book, there is a big difference between making/creating and discovering anything. But maybe I am misinterpreting how the writer is using the word "discoveries".

Another quote: "Making a new element means making a new kind of atom."

Has anyone written a good but simple story of how these new elements actually developed? I'd like to read more.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby zetreque on May 28th, 2016, 2:21 pm 

Vivian, If you like videos, here is a playlist of a video for every element. You can skip down to the bottom to get the story behind the "newest" ones.

Youtube Periodic Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rdmpx3 ... F36C085DE1
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby zetreque on May 28th, 2016, 2:26 pm 

Here is a related graphic. Hard to read though.
Image

which is part of this series.

http://www.amazon.com/Collection-Cpep-Modern-Physics-Posters/dp/B00O2KHE9E
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 28th, 2016, 2:43 pm 

zetreque » May 28th, 2016, 1:21 pm wrote:Vivian, If you like videos, here is a playlist of a video for every element. You can skip down to the bottom to get the story behind the "newest" ones.

Youtube Periodic Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rdmpx3 ... F36C085DE1


Thank you. I'll set aside a time for that. No interruptions wanted. :-)
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby zetreque on May 28th, 2016, 2:47 pm 

vivian maxine » Sat May 28, 2016 11:43 am wrote:
zetreque » May 28th, 2016, 1:21 pm wrote:Vivian, If you like videos, here is a playlist of a video for every element. You can skip down to the bottom to get the story behind the "newest" ones.

Youtube Periodic Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rdmpx3 ... F36C085DE1


Thank you. I'll set aside a time for that. No interruptions wanted. :-)


If I remember correctly, the majority of the videos were lacking details behind the process they went through in "creating" them but still good.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby vivian maxine on May 28th, 2016, 3:21 pm 

zetreque » May 28th, 2016, 1:47 pm wrote:
vivian maxine » Sat May 28, 2016 11:43 am wrote:
zetreque » May 28th, 2016, 1:21 pm wrote:Vivian, If you like videos, here is a playlist of a video for every element. You can skip down to the bottom to get the story behind the "newest" ones.

Youtube Periodic Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rdmpx3 ... F36C085DE1


Thank you. I'll set aside a time for that. No interruptions wanted. :-)


If I remember correctly, the majority of the videos were lacking details behind the process they went through in "creating" them but still good.


Another reason to like books. Details. Plus, you can re-read. Well, usually anyway.
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Re: From Stars to Mines

Postby zetreque on June 9th, 2016, 4:14 pm 

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