Human electricity

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Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 7th, 2017, 6:47 am 

I have been trying to find out if there is any kind of similarity in the meanings of "electricity" as a light energy source and what we call electricity in the human body (nerve impulses). Or are we just giving two different definitions to the same word? If the following is true, there apparently is a similarity.

"The human nervous system can create electric energy waves that can be measured with scientific instruments. The human body produces infra-red radiation that, with night vision equipment, can be seen from miles away." (Spiritual Garden.net)

Radiation, of course, is another energy source. I know where Spiritual Garden is going with it but that's not what I am after. It just happens to be where I finally found what seems to be a good description. The entire article compares it to the electricity of light energy.

Does anyone know a good scientific paper or book that examines these two forms of electricity, assuming the human nerve impulses do fit into the definition of electricity?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Dave_Oblad on May 7th, 2017, 9:15 am 

Hi Vivian,

There is only one kind of Electricity. Lightning, what powers your Appliances, what triggers muscles in a body.. are all the same Electricity.

Body heat is not produced by electricity flowing. Body heat is produced by burning Calories.. it is a chemical process that produces body heat.

When Electricity flows from one place to another, it creates a Magnetic Field and we can measure a Magnetic Field. For example, we can wrap wire around an Iron Nail and hook the wires to a battery. Electricity will flow through the wire and make the Nail into a Magnet. If you bring a compass near the Nail, you will see it changes to align with the Nail's Magnetic Field (North-South Poles).

Body heat is just a form of ordinary Light in the deep deep Red. Sensitive cameras can amplify the brightness of that deep red light and allow us to see hot bodies on a viewing screen, even when it is too dark for our unassisted eyes to see a person. We can use a camera to see the Heat being radiated from the Body.

Does that help?

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 7th, 2017, 10:10 am 

Are you saying there is no magnetic field - not even a very slight one - around the human body? As for heat, they didn't mention heat unless they were calling it "electric energy waves". "Heat" certainly fits better with "radiation". Knowing what electricity does within the body, I was wondering about that. "Radiation" does not fit with "nerve impulses, does it?

But, my question again. Are you saying there is no magnetic field around the human body? Some time ago we had a discussion about what seems to be an attraction from one's fingers to certain objects. I think, if I remember rightly, it was neuro who explained that. I'll try to find it but it was long ago.

By the way, my OP question still stands. :-)
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Braininvat on May 7th, 2017, 11:32 am 

Given the tiny electrical currents that flow in the nervous system, there would be some weak magnetic fields around the body.

However, any attraction from one's fingers would just be static electricity...from shuffling along a carpet or vigorously petting a mink or what have you.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 7th, 2017, 11:59 am 

Braininvat » May 7th, 2017, 10:32 am wrote:Given the tiny electrical currents that flow in the nervous system, there would be some weak magnetic fields around the body.

However, any attraction from one's fingers would just be static electricity...from shuffling along a carpet or vigorously petting a mink or what have you.


It would be if a person were moving across a carpet. But I've seen it from my own hands while not moving at all. It might be easier to just say it than try to find that old post. I can put a styrofoam cup on the counter and put my hand close (say six or seven inches from the cup) and the cup will drift toward my hand. If I pull my hand back, the cup will follow. Then there is the time I was visiting a neighbor. He set up his toy train which ran on batteries. It probably needed new batteries but, nevertheless, it would not go when he flipped the switch. I put my fingers on the track in front of the train and it followed my fingers right down the line. When I took my fingers off the track, the train stopped.

Are those instances static electricity? Or are they due to that "weak magnetic field"? And thank you for confirming that such a field does exist.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Heavy_Water on May 7th, 2017, 7:03 pm 

Oh, the electricity our brain generates and our CNS uses for two way communication....afferent and efferent nervous systems....is real all right. Just as valid as the electricity you can obtain from an AA battery. But the voltage is far less.

Nervous system: those pain signals coming from your thumb you just hit with a hammer to your brain travels via the afferent path. The signs of your brain telling your thumb to fly to your mouth do you can suck it, travel via the efferent system.

Electricity w know is the the movement of electrons. Our CNS uses neurons as it's main medium for transmitting electricity. This neurons have electrons in them.

We are talking of miniscule amount of electricity, but it's real and it's there. The average neuron contains a resting voltage of approximately 70 millivolts. That looks like this...0.07 volts. So, yeah,small when compared to a 1.5 volts in a AA battery or the 110 volts in a wall outlett. What is interesting though, is that although 70 millivolts seems small...I occurs at, the microscopic level.

You probably know that voltage is defined as an electrical potential difference between two points. So with our example on the AA battery, this potential difference is measured between the positive and negative) of the battery and is due to an excess of negative charge at the, duh,negative pole.

In a neuron, this potential difference is measured across the fat, or more accurately the lipid layer, with the intracellular side being the negative. But that lipid bilayer is around 5 nanos thick, which means that the 0.007millivolt potential difference is separated by only 5 times 10 to the -9 meters!

So, for bottom line neurons power, compared to the AA batt.....how many times does the 0.07 go into 1.5? A little over two thousand? So then 2000 of your neurons contain the same amount of electricity as a AA battery.

Remember that voltage is only potential. In abilities to shock you, it means little. Amperes are what shocks you. For example, one of those static shocks you can get on a dry day when you touch a doorknob can have 10,000 volts in it.

But of amperes? We are talking mili amps. So you can extrapolate s bit on how little shock you can get from 1/2000th of an AA battery.

My old biochemistry Prof said your brain can power your smart phone for over two days. But this is unconfirmed. LOL.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby someguy1 on May 7th, 2017, 11:03 pm 

vivian maxine » May 7th, 2017, 4:47 am wrote:I have been trying to find out if there is any kind of similarity in the meanings of "electricity" as a light energy source and what we call electricity in the human body (nerve impulses). Or are we just giving two different definitions to the same word? If the following is true, there apparently is a similarity.


They are the same thing. This great discovery was made by Luigi Galvani, who in 1780 made a dead frog leg's jump when he applied an electrical current to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Galvani
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 8th, 2017, 7:27 am 

Thank you, someguy1. That answers me well. And thank you, Heavy_Water, for details that enrich the picture.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby bangstrom on May 9th, 2017, 2:51 am 

vivian maxine » May 7th, 2017, 5:47 am wrote:
Does anyone know a good scientific paper or book that examines these two forms of electricity, assuming the human nerve impulses do fit into the definition of electricity?

There is little comparison between electrical wiring and nerve impulses. Muscle tissues can respond to a Galvanic type electrical current that passes through the tissues themselves but electrical signals passing through neurons to the muscles and other organs are transmitted by an enormously slow and complicated method known as the sodium-potassium ion pump. Electronic signals passing through wires travel at close to light speed but electrical signals in neurons travel at speeds more like a fast walk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRC8SlLcH0

Note in the illustration that the stimulus from hot pan travels to the little girl’s spinal cord and then to her arm muscles bypassing her brain. Eventually the signal will reach her brain and register as pain but, by the time she realizes the pan is hot, she will have already removed her hand so the shorter and quicker signal from her spinal cord has saved her from a more serious burn than a slower signal from her brain.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 9th, 2017, 11:27 am 

How rare and wonderful to listen to YouTube talk that I can hear clearly. It is all about quality, isn't it? Thank you, Bangstrom, for that and the explanations. You said "there is little comparison" but isn't there some similarity? I am thinking of that electromagnetic field that I've mentioned before. Isn't there a far less powerful but similarity there?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on May 9th, 2017, 12:39 pm 

vivian maxine » May 7th, 2017, 4:47 am wrote:I have been trying to find out if there is any kind of similarity in the meanings of "electricity" as a light energy source and what we call electricity in the human body (nerve impulses). Or are we just giving two different definitions to the same word? If the following is true, there apparently is a similarity.

"The human nervous system can create electric energy waves that can be measured with scientific instruments. The human body produces infra-red radiation that, with night vision equipment, can be seen from miles away." (Spiritual Garden.net)

Radiation, of course, is another energy source. I know where Spiritual Garden is going with it but that's not what I am after. It just happens to be where I finally found what seems to be a good description. The entire article compares it to the electricity of light energy.

Does anyone know a good scientific paper or book that examines these two forms of electricity, assuming the human nerve impulses do fit into the definition of electricity?


I so appreciate you using something from a paper that is not exactly scientifically correct, to get to a point you want to discuss. Sometimes that does seem the best way to go, because it opens the mystery for investigation.

Reading Dave's reply made me think of electric eels and the deep sea documentary that recently aired. Living things produce electricity that can shock and light a small area.

I want to point out here, the eastern point of view is not as materialistic as the western point of view and you have good reason to question our western materialism. The eastern point of view sees the cosmos as dynamic events, rather then as things, structures, atoms, and molecules. Because we live in the west we do not get eastern explanations, but rather are prejudiced against that point of view.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 9th, 2017, 12:58 pm 

Except, perhaps, the Jainists, Athena? We find much of their philosophy echoed in the Western world - certainly in the USA.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on May 11th, 2017, 1:54 pm 

Nice Vivan. I had to look that up and I know this reasoning as Buddhism. It makes perfect sense to me.
Definition of Jainism. : a religion of India originating in the sixth century b.c. and teaching liberation of the soul by right knowledge, right faith, and right conduct.
Jainism | Definition of Jainism by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Jainism


Your subject is human electricity and perhaps under that subject is the electrical flow or our brains, and how meditation can that flow? This link is not about the effects of meditation but is about experience and electrical flow in our brains.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2717040/

Empathy is associated with dynamic change in prefrontal brain electrical activity during positive emotion in children
Sharee N. Light, James A. Coan, Carolyn Zahn-Waxler, Corrina Frye, H. Hill Goldsmith, and Richard J. Davidson
Author information ► Copyright and License information ►
The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at Child Dev
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.
Go to:
Abstract
Empathy is the combined ability to interpret the emotional states of others and experience resultant, related emotions. The relation between prefrontal electroencephalographic asymmetry and emotion in infants and children is well known. The relationship between positive emotion (assessed via parent-report), empathy (measured via observation) and second-by-second brain electrical activity (recorded during a pleasurable task) was investigated using a sample of 128 six to ten year olds. Contentment predicted increasing left-sided frontopolar activation (p<.05). Empathic concern and one form of positive empathy predicted increasing right-sided frontopolar activation (ps<.05). A second form of positive empathy predicted increasing left-sided dorsolateral activation (p<.05). This suggests that positive emotion and (negative and positive) empathy predict changes in prefrontal activity in children during a pleasurable task.
[/quote]

I want to add to this that stimulated neurons grow, and unstimulated neurons atrophy and die.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 11th, 2017, 7:12 pm 

Try a book called The Best Guide to Eastern Philosophy & Religion by Diane Morgan. p 265-275. More details there. The Jains broke away from the Buddhists. In this book, the title to the article is Jain Atheism. What is interesting is how the morality in daily life that they preach sounds like that taught by Buddhists but the spiritual side is denied. Hard to explain; easier to read.

As for meditation and electricity in the brain, I have no idea. Does not sound to me as though the two pair up.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby neuro on May 18th, 2017, 12:21 pm 

The only difference between classical (Volta's) electricity and animal (Galvani's) electricity is that in the first case the current is carried by the flow of electrons whereas in the latter it is carried by ions (charged atoms).
In both cases, however, current is charges moving and electric potential is the result of charges being there, repelling charges of the same sign and attracting charges of the opposite sign.

Electrical events in the brain do create magnetic fields. They are tiny magnetic fields, which can be used to study cerebral activity (Magneto-Encephalo-Graphy). The point, however, is that the currents are continually changing in the brain and as a consequence the resulting tiny magnetic fields also are continually changing.
The magnet created by winding an electric conductor around a nail can be stable provided you pass a stable current.
There is no such phenomenon or process in our body (stable current).

Still any surface (our skin as well) can be charged (electrostatically) and will attract/repel surfaces that are charged with the opposite or the same sign. Electrostatics however WILL NOT generate any magnetic field. The attraction / repulsion of positive/negative electric charges IS NOT magnetism.

Finally we do not "create energy" that is sensed from far away.
ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED OR PRODUCED. It can only be transformed from one form to another.
Our body transforms the chemical energy contained in foods into mechanical and electrical work, but since each transformation of energy implies that some gets into heat, we transform much of the energy we intake into heat and release such heat by evaporating water (sweating, humidifying the air that exits our respiratory apparatus) and by conduction (if we are in water for example or touch a metal), convection (releasing the heat to air molecules that touch our skin, works better if there is some wind!) and radiation (infra-red electromagnetic waves).

Note however that the infra-red waves we emit are not electricity, neither are they magnetism or magnetic fields. They are a form of light (photons), which simply cannot be perceived by our eye because we do not have suitable proteins in our retinas (infra-red photons have a lower energy than visible photons). Note that some animals (snakes for example) can instead perceive such waves. We ourselves perceive them - not through our eyes by through our skin - and do not perceive them as light but rather as heat.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 18th, 2017, 12:46 pm 

Thank you, neuro. Great lesson that explains a lot. Viv
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on May 20th, 2017, 10:48 am 

Testing. I know I posted to this thread this morning and the posts are not here.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 20th, 2017, 11:46 am 

Athena » May 20th, 2017, 9:48 am wrote:Testing. I know I posted to this thread this morning and the posts are not here.


And I just got in. Haven't been able to for two days. Good morning. :-)
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on May 21st, 2017, 11:03 am 

Strange things happen, Vivan. It must have been a bad star day with planets in a trouble making configuration. LOL

So many things respond to magnetic energy. It is because we are full of water.

Image result for water and magnetism
Light and electricity don't seem to have much trouble passing through water. It doesn't seem like it would be magnetic but it turns out water, and all matter, can exhibit magnetic properties if you put them in a big enough magnetic field. Water is slightly repelled by a very strong magnet.
Do Magnets Work Under Water? - TerpConnect
https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~wbreslyn/m ... water.html


So a frog can be alleviated with a magnet and so can a human if you use a big enough magnet.

We also emit a light, but it is not visible without night goggles. We say these goggles detect heat, but that is one of the wavelengths of light and we need special goggles to see that wavelength of light.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 21st, 2017, 11:55 am 

Thank you, Athena. Lots of good information there. A magnet under water? Do salvage people ever do it that way? Or do they only use grapple hooks?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Dave_Oblad on May 21st, 2017, 1:14 pm 

Hi Vivian,

Rarely Magnets (depends on what you are trying to raise). Almost as rare are hooks.. as the tend to do a lot of damage. Sometimes buoyancy, such as air bags. Most often Cables or Nets to distribute the load.

The nature of the target determines the best means to surface such, of course. Pulling a car out of a river would probably best use hooks. Most boats don't have enough metal nor are built well enough for point stresses as with hooks.

Not that I'm an expert or anything. Just logical deductions.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Human electricity

Postby vivian maxine on May 21st, 2017, 1:47 pm 

Dave_Oblad » May 21st, 2017, 12:14 pm wrote:Hi Vivian,

Rarely Magnets (depends on what you are trying to raise). Almost as rare are hooks.. as the tend to do a lot of damage. Sometimes buoyancy, such as air bags. Most often Cables or Nets to distribute the load.

The nature of the target determines the best means to surface such, of course. Pulling a car out of a river would probably best use hooks. Most boats don't have enough metal nor are built well enough for point stresses as with hooks.

Not that I'm an expert or anything. Just logical deductions.

Regards,
Dave :^)


Thank you, Dave. Sounds good to me. So, there is still the question "do magnets work under water". What do you think?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Braininvat on May 21st, 2017, 3:19 pm 

I used to be able to pull threads back on topic with the magnetic force of my mind. Then I burned out the circuitry.

As Athena's web page said, magnets work in most mediums on ferrous alloys. Water, vacuum, olive oil, etc. I believe her link suggests experiments you can try. Dave was addressing more the practical engineering aspects of where magnets can be used in a cost effective and nondamaging way.
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on May 21st, 2017, 3:36 pm 

I am not sure were are clear about electricity and magnetism, heat and light.

Wave theory of light - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light
Light is electromagnetic radiation within a certain portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. ... EMR in this range causes molecular vibration and heating effects, which is how these animals detect it. Above the range of visible light, ultraviolet light ...


Animals That Can See Infrared Light | Sciencing
sciencing.com/animals-can-see-infrared-light-6910261.html
Snakes such as boa constrictors and pit vipers use infrared to see their prey. In any kind of lighting or weather condition, these snakes can see the body heat ...


And when we image the brain we can see where the light/heat is concentrated, right?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby neuro on June 3rd, 2017, 10:34 am 

Athena:
An electromagnetic wave is not a magnet, nor is it a magnetic field, nor is it electricity.
Heat radiation is - as you correctly say - an electromagnetic wave; we call "light" the electromagnetic wave in the limited band we can perceive. By extension we can also call heat waves infrared light.
Still this is not magnets nor it is electricity.
And by the way, X-rays and gamma-rays also are electromagnetic waves, as are radio waves; none of them is referred to as "light".

One cannot use magnets to attract an organism, although living organisms display a number of electrical processes, certainly have small magnetic fields in them and are sensitive to magnetic fields.
The point is that electrical phenomena in the organism are continuously variable small fields and currents, which do not produce any usable form of energy outside, although they may be recorded in ECG, EMG, EEG, etc.

Since electrical events occur in organisms, electromagnetic fields are generated (by electric currents) so that magnetic fields can be recorded. Once more, those magnetic fields are small and continuously varying so that an organism has no magnetic effect on anything (does not attract and is not attracted by anything).
The small ever-changing magnetic fields generated in an organism can be recorded (mostly from the brain) using magnetoencephalography.
Further, the application of strong magnetic fields moves the protons that can move (in molecule of solutes as well as water) tending to align them with the magnetic field. When you stop applying the magnetic field, they will have been so nicely ordered that they now produce a weak magnetic field. Then they gradually recover their random orientation, and they do it in different way depending on whether they belong to water or any other compound. By analysing the way the magnetic field decays (when protons are randomly disposed their magnetic effects cancel each-other) you can discern different compositions of fluids and tissues. This is the basis for Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

"When we image the brain" we CANNOT see where the ligh is concentrated (what light? it seems to me you are thinking that we image infrared waves coming from the brain...). We do not see light in the brain because the skull does not let much light through. What we image are: (a) the radio-opacity of bones (X-rays); (b) the differential radio-opacity of different tissues (X-Rays, mammography, TAC); (c) radio-opaque tracers injected in the blood or other fluids (contrast X-rays, TAC, etc); (d) the emission of positrons by specific tracers (PET); and, as I mentioned, (e) the time-course of the active magnetic field produced by the tissue after exposure to a strong magnetic field (MRI); (f) magnetic resonance imaging of appropriate exogenous tracers (such as gadolinium) or endogenous compounds (e.g. blood oxygen level, to identify which areas of the brain are more active).
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Re: Human electricity

Postby Athena on June 4th, 2017, 11:21 am 

neuro » June 3rd, 2017, 8:34 am wrote:Athena:
An electromagnetic wave is not a magnet, nor is it a magnetic field, nor is it electricity.
Heat radiation is - as you correctly say - an electromagnetic wave; we call "light" the electromagnetic wave in the limited band we can perceive. By extension we can also call heat waves infrared light.
Still this is not magnets nor it is electricity.
And by the way, X-rays and gamma-rays also are electromagnetic waves, as are radio waves; none of them is referred to as "light".


It is my understanding that all those waves are part of the light spectrum. Light is an electromagnetic radiation isn't it?

One cannot use magnets to attract an organism, although living organisms display a number of electrical processes, certainly have small magnetic fields in them and are sensitive to magnetic fields.
The point is that electrical phenomena in the organism are continuously variable small fields and currents, which do not produce any usable form of energy outside, although they may be recorded in ECG, EMG, EEG, etc.


Are you arguing frogs and humans can not be levitated? If so you better check the facts. This is not an attraction like the positive and negative attract each other, but is a magnetic force field.

Aslo you may find the mindflex toys interesting. These toys are about using brain waves to control the motion of something other than our bodies. Such a band around the head with a fan that keeps a ball floating, from there the user can control the up and down movement of the ball with thoughts. We can also use such a devise and our minds to use a computer. This is important to persons with ALS who can not control there muscles and can not speak.

Since electrical events occur in organisms, electromagnetic fields are generated (by electric currents) so that magnetic fields can be recorded. Once more, those magnetic fields are small and continuously varying so that an organism has no magnetic effect on anything (does not attract and is not attracted by anything).


I don't understand why you are arguing the point? It seems kind of like arguing fog is not water.

The small ever-changing magnetic fields generated in an organism can be recorded (mostly from the brain) using magnetoencephalography.
Further, the application of strong magnetic fields moves the protons that can move (in molecule of solutes as well as water) tending to align them with the magnetic field. When you stop applying the magnetic field, they will have been so nicely ordered that they now produce a weak magnetic field. Then they gradually recover their random orientation, and they do it in different way depending on whether they belong to water or any other compound. By analysing the way the magnetic field decays (when protons are randomly disposed their magnetic effects cancel each-other) you can discern different compositions of fluids and tissues. This is the basis for Magnetic Resonance Imaging.
I can appreciate what you said as it becomes a visual for me. There must be a closeness between a devise that transforms our thoughts into a force that can move things, and in this vision it becomes clear there must be strict limits of this or our universe would be chaos and not manifested order.

"When we image the brain" we CANNOT see where the light is concentrated (what light? it seems to me you are thinking that we image infrared waves coming from the brain...). We do not see light in the brain because the skull does not let much light through. What we image are: (a) the radio-opacity of bones (X-rays); (b) the differential radio-opacity of different tissues (X-Rays, mammography, TAC); (c) radio-opaque tracers injected in the blood or other fluids (contrast X-rays, TAC, etc); (d) the emission of positrons by specific tracers (PET); and, as I mentioned, (e) the time-course of the active magnetic field produced by the tissue after exposure to a strong magnetic field (MRI); (f) magnetic resonance imaging of appropriate exogenous tracers (such as gadolinium) or endogenous compounds (e.g. blood oxygen level, to identify which areas of the brain are more active).


That was funny, we do not see light in the brain because the skull prevents light from getting in. Isn't it obvious the light gets in from the eyes, nose and mouth? Only kidding. We can see where mental activity is happening. I don't know why you do not speak of this as light. Brain waves are synchronized electrical pulses and this does emit a light, but not at the vibration frequency we can see with our eyes.

I think you know much more about the differences between this and that than I do, but I am not clear on why we have disagreement?
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Re: Human electricity

Postby eagle on June 12th, 2017, 3:36 pm 

For devices that convert brain waves into moving other objects, presumably they apply external electrical energy to do the moving itself, and only read the brain waves to garner a sense of how the human wants to control the objects...
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