Does light really exist?

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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 27th, 2017, 7:09 am 

Hi handmade,

1. Does light exist between source and target? If we find a hard vacuum near a strong gravitational field then we have proven (measured) that the path of light is bent, without interaction with any substance. What substance is light interacting with to bend the normally straight trajectory? How can one reconcile the lack of existence for light between source and target if the path of light between source and target can be bent without interacting with any substance?

2. If we take two identical rooms with each having a 100 watt light bulb within. Both rooms have identical furniture and shape. The only difference is one room has all interior painted white and the other black. In the white room, you will be able to see every detail with virtually no shadows. The black room would be very difficult to make out (see) anything within it.

The difference is scattered light and absorbed light. You seem to reject the idea that light can bounce off a white surface. If so, you are wrong.

3. A remote star goes Nova right now. It is 10 light years away. It will take 10 years before we get to see the flash. Where was that flash between now and when we get to see it in ten years?

Tackle my first observation about bent light.. before trying to explain scattered light and delayed light.. please.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Watson on June 27th, 2017, 10:19 am 

I appreciate this is beginner science, so you get a bit more tolerance, but you seem to keep trying to teach your us your idea. It is wrong, from what I can tell so far, but you seem to have no interest in learning from others here. You keep coming back to having us understand your thinking. Perhaps you should explain it in more detail in Personal Theories. Maybe if there was some greater context, we might understand where your thinking is coming from. I'm not being awkward, just practical.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby bangstrom on June 27th, 2017, 1:37 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 27th, 2017, 6:09 am wrote:
1. Does light exist between source and target? If we find a hard vacuum near a strong gravitational field then we have proven (measured) that the path of light is bent, without interaction with any substance. What substance is light interacting with to bend the normally straight trajectory? How can one reconcile the lack of existence for light between source and target if the path of light between source and target can be bent without interacting with any substance?


In the old Wheeler-Fynman absorber theory, light takes every possible path between signal and receiver-- curved and straight and everything else-- but it is the environment of each observer that determines which path they observe. A straight line to one observer can be a curved line to another and the timing of events is also observer dependent.

The path of light itself can not be observed so its existence is hypothetical and, if light does not exist between signal and receiver, it can’t have a path so the question of existence applies to both. The question remains as to whether light exists and follows a ballistic path or whether it is the spacetime environment that determines which particle can exchange a quantum of energy with another remote particle.

This all boils down to the EPR effect which states that one particle can only effect another if there is a physical connection between the two. Therefore we have the “invention” of the photon to explain the invisible transfer of energy but the EPR effect has not been supported by evidence since the work of Bell and Aspect so the question remains as to whether light and its path exist between signal and receiver or if these are human inventions.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Braininvat on June 27th, 2017, 1:59 pm 

That's the cue for Faradave, if he is still around the old SPCF. Of course, then we would have to move this out of Beginner Science, since his Pinhole Theory is a Personal Theory. But that's what Handmade seems to be offering as well, so I will move it, if that frees up discussion here.

I lean towards photons not really being particles. but rather field perturbations that register as points when they interact with a measuring device. Ontologically, they might as well be Energy Fairies. Who knows what they "really" are. The transaction between emitter and absorber seems more like an information delay than a genuine ballistic journey at lightspeed. Oh dear, I think I just took a step towards aether! Never mind!
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:11 pm 

bangstrom » June 27th, 2017, 4:30 am wrote:. There is essentially nothing special about visible light that should exclude its inrteractions from consideration along with the rest of the EM scale.



Visible light is essentially special, EMR between your eyes and object is totally random, we can not see random. ''Colour'' is an EMR constant wavelength, we can see constants among a variate.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:23 pm 

Watson » June 27th, 2017, 9:19 am wrote:I appreciate this is beginner science, so you get a bit more tolerance, but you seem to keep trying to teach your us your idea. It is wrong, from what I can tell so far, but you seem to have no interest in learning from others here. You keep coming back to having us understand your thinking. Perhaps you should explain it in more detail in Personal Theories. Maybe if there was some greater context, we might understand where your thinking is coming from. I'm not being awkward, just practical.



Dear Mr Watson, have you never questioned the teacher? To learn is also to question, it is not really a theory , it is an ask, a question that I am questioning.

You say I have no interest in learning, every time I read something I am learning, every time you read something you are learning. Did you know it is also good to learn the wrongs to go with the rights?

However this discussion is mind boggling to a degree. To look at an object in the daytime and realise the space between your eyes and object is relative dark without the object. Objectively dark even with the object.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:28 pm 

bangstrom » June 27th, 2017, 5:04 am wrote:
Watson » June 25th, 2017, 3:51 pm wrote:Yes and No.

Light radiation is created by something. Without something to create it, light doesn't exist. So No.

But light from distant sources is reaching us millions of years after it was produced by the bright object we are now seeing. That bright object may shine differently now, in that local region of the Universe, or it may have stopped shining altogether, but we see it as it was millions of years ago.
So yes, light does exist without the something that initially created it.

Your statements begin and end with the assumption that that light exists between signal and sink and that our conventional theories of light are correct so you are using the theory in question to explain its correctness.

The question is, Does light exist between signal and sink or is light better understood as a potential quantized state of energy which can only be measured, or said to "exist" when it interacts with another particle? By “exist” I mean is light manifestly present in space-time or could it be that it is not light that is "moving" but only it's potential to become manifest?

Assuming that Special Relativity is correct it can be demonstrated that photons do not experience space or time due to the effects of dilation and contraction. For light, emission and absorption are simultaneous so light has neither time nor space in which to exist or propagate throughout the universe.

Can this mean that photons simply do not "exist"? What if a photon is simply a potential quantized state of energy which can only be measured, or said to "exist" when it interacts with another particle? Is the thing that is actually traveling through space-time merely the photon's calculated probability function? Is it possible that the wavelength of any given photon does not exist and can in no way be measured until it interacts with another particle?

And, is energy conserver if there are millions of years of stellar emissions drifting through space waiting to arrive? It has been said that energy has no holding pattern.



Thank you Sir , you quite clearly understand the question and have probably just explained it better.

Regards

Steve
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:31 pm 

Braininvat » June 27th, 2017, 12:59 pm wrote:That's the cue for Faradave, if he is still around the old SPCF. Of course, then we would have to move this out of Beginner Science, since his Pinhole Theory is a Personal Theory. But that's what Handmade seems to be offering as well, so I will move it, if that frees up discussion here.

I lean towards photons not really being particles. but rather field perturbations that register as points when they interact with a measuring device. Ontologically, they might as well be Energy Fairies. Who knows what they "really" are. The transaction between emitter and absorber seems more like an information delay than a genuine ballistic journey at lightspeed. Oh dear, I think I just took a step towards aether! Never mind!



I think we are both leaning the same way, your explanation ''sounds'' precise. The ''Aether' of sight would be EMR. Our brains when our eyes are open, a part of quantum entanglement.

Regards

Steve
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:35 pm 

Dave_Oblad » June 27th, 2017, 6:09 am wrote:Hi handmade,

1. Does light exist between source and target? If we find a hard vacuum near a strong gravitational field then we have proven (measured) that the path of light is bent, without interaction with any substance. What substance is light interacting with to bend the normally straight trajectory? How can one reconcile the lack of existence for light between source and target if the path of light between source and target can be bent without interacting with any substance?

2. If we take two identical rooms with each having a 100 watt light bulb within. Both rooms have identical furniture and shape. The only difference is one room has all interior painted white and the other black. In the white room, you will be able to see every detail with virtually no shadows. The black room would be very difficult to make out (see) anything within it.

The difference is scattered light and absorbed light. You seem to reject the idea that light can bounce off a white surface. If so, you are wrong.

3. A remote star goes Nova right now. It is 10 light years away. It will take 10 years before we get to see the flash. Where was that flash between now and when we get to see it in ten years?

Tackle my first observation about bent light.. before trying to explain scattered light and delayed light.. please.

Regards,
Dave :^)


1. Field interaction

EMR will ''bend'' ''curve'' around an opposing EM field . I.e the earths field stops some EMR coming in.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 4:43 pm 

I think EMR has to enter your eyes to allow universal connectivity of observation. EMR entering your eyes allows you to see visible light in its exact location relative to the EMR random constant of space?

Is this viable?

added- Even in the relative dark in the cellar there still exists EMR in the space. This would explain why we can see the visible laser dot?

added- We presently think that when it is relatively dark we are effectively blind, things change if we consider it is not relative dark, the space is clear but there is just no light to see from objects interacting with the EMR, the EMR not having enough magnitude to cause the right reaction and build up of EMR ''layers''.

Regards

Steve


P.s The laser beam travels through the EMR existing ''Aether''.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Watson on June 27th, 2017, 6:28 pm 

bangstrom » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:04 am wrote:
Watson » June 25th, 2017, 3:51 pm wrote:Yes and No.

Light radiation is created by something. Without something to create it, light doesn't exist. So No.

But light from distant sources is reaching us millions of years after it was produced by the bright object we are now seeing. That bright object may shine differently now, in that local region of the Universe, or it may have stopped shining altogether, but we see it as it was millions of years ago.
So yes, light does exist without the something that initially created it.

Your statements begin and end with the assumption that that light exists between signal and sink and that our conventional theories of light are correct so you are using the theory in question to explain its correctness.

The question is, Does light exist between signal and sink or is light better understood as a potential quantized state of energy which can only be measured, or said to "exist" when it interacts with another particle? By “exist” I mean is light manifestly present in space-time or could it be that it is not light that is "moving" but only it's potential to become manifest?

Assuming that Special Relativity is correct it can be demonstrated that photons do not experience space or time due to the effects of dilation and contraction. For light, emission and absorption are simultaneous so light has neither time nor space in which to exist or propagate throughout the universe.

Can this mean that photons simply do not "exist"? What if a photon is simply a potential quantized state of energy which can only be measured, or said to "exist" when it interacts with another particle? Is the thing that is actually traveling through space-time merely the photon's calculated probability function? Is it possible that the wavelength of any given photon does not exist and can in no way be measured until it interacts with another particle?

And, is energy conserver if there are millions of years of stellar emissions drifting through space waiting to arrive? It has been said that energy has no holding pattern.

Sorry, I missed this earlier, with the page flip.
I wasn't making any such assumptions. The question I was answering was "Can observable light exist without a substance that creates a wave-length of 400nm-700nm?"
I answered no, light does not exist without a source, or substance, but yes it can exist at a distance (be seen by us) after the source of the light is extinguished. Of course, what form the light energy takes while its out there in the in between space is an open question.
So no, no assumptions, no relying on conventional theories to explain anything. But after that, you did ok.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby nameless on June 27th, 2017, 7:02 pm 

handmade » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:19 am wrote:There is no evidence the sun emits light, there is evidence that substance is needed to produce light, is the only light we see only that of point source? Do things effectively ''glow in the dark'' when there is enough magnitude of EMR present to make it ''glow in the dark''.
Without substance there is no light even when EMR is present. Evidently between the distant stars.

Everything exists!
If you are talking of 'light', or the cat in the corner, or anything else, the ultimate 'substance' of which it is made is the same; 'information waves'! Mindstuff! Quantum wave field.
AS 'information waves', everything exists to Consciousness!
The 'make-believe' existence that we perceive is all the Reality we can Know/experience!

Added for your reading pleasure;

Does Light Exist Between Events?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/light.htm
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 7:08 pm 

I wasn't making any such assumptions. The question I was answering was "Can observable light exist without a substance that creates a wave-length of 400nm-700nm?"
I answered no, light does not exist without a source, or substance, but yes it can exist at a distance (be seen by us) after the source of the light is extinguished. Of course, what form the light energy takes while its out there in the in between space is an open question.
So no, no assumptions, no relying on conventional theories to explain anything. But after that, you did ok.



The question also asks about seeing light at a distance , do we see that light in its exact position, the object sort of ''glowing'' in the relative darkness?

Quite clearly it would be hard to say objectively that any light travels from a distance source to our eyes, it is quite clear literally, that between our eyes and any object we do not see any visible light.


I have questioned this for several years now, but this is the first time I think I have explained it clear enough to understand the actual questions.



I answered no, light does not exist without a source, or substance, but yes it can exist at a distance


Your answer of no contradicts your yes answer, the visible light at distant you observe is of the substance also ?

Without the distant substance the visible light you see would not exist also.


regards

Steve
Last edited by handmade on June 27th, 2017, 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 7:13 pm 

nameless » June 27th, 2017, 6:02 pm wrote:
handmade » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:19 am wrote:There is no evidence the sun emits light, there is evidence that substance is needed to produce light, is the only light we see only that of point source? Do things effectively ''glow in the dark'' when there is enough magnitude of EMR present to make it ''glow in the dark''.
Without substance there is no light even when EMR is present. Evidently between the distant stars.

Everything exists!
If you are talking of 'light', or the cat in the corner, or anything else, the ultimate 'substance' of which it is made is the same; 'information waves'! Mindstuff! Quantum wave field.
AS 'information waves', everything exists to Consciousness!
The 'make-believe' existence that we perceive is all the Reality we can Know/experience!

Added for your reading pleasure;

Does Light Exist Between Events?

http://www.nobeliefs.com/light.htm


We are discussing visible light, some of us are already in relative agreement that visible light does not exist without the substance.
We are also discussing ''light'' passing through space, there is no visible light in this space.

Thank you for the interesting link, I will comment on that when I have read it several times.

Regards

Steve
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 7:24 pm 

In reply to the link I will reply with a link. This is my wordpress page and what my mind went through in thinking in the past. I try to explain light several times in different bloggs.

https://wordpress.com/posts/theoristexp ... dpress.com

related content

https://wordpress.com/post/theoristexpl ... s.com/1171

Regards


Steve
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Dave_Oblad on June 27th, 2017, 8:07 pm 

Hi Bangstrom,

bangstrom wrote:In the old Wheeler-Fynman absorber theory, light takes every possible path between signal and receiver-- curved and straight and everything else-- but it is the environment of each observer that determines which path they observe.

I'm not convinced light follows any other path than a straight line (disregarding gravity), once it has left the emitter. If light followed some random probabilistic path (once underway) then light would be entering your eye from many possible angles from the same finite location emitter. If that where true, then the Lens in your Eye would not be able to reconstruct the image on the retina. Basically.. a lens would be worthless.. right?

We could also talk about hard shadows, which could not exist if light had a probabilistic path. I agree the emission angle can be a probabilistic one, but after emission, light travels in a straight line if not interfered with.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Watson on June 27th, 2017, 8:17 pm 

No it doesn't.

Are you talking about light as it travels passed you, and looking at it from the side and seeing nothing from the side of the light?
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Watson on June 27th, 2017, 8:30 pm 

handmade » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:24 pm wrote:In reply to the link I will reply with a link. This is my wordpress page and what my mind went through in thinking in the past. I try to explain light several times in different bloggs.

https://wordpress.com/posts/theoristexp ... dpress.com

related content

https://wordpress.com/post/theoristexpl ... s.com/1171

Regards


Steve

and
I have questioned this for several years now, but this is the first time I think I have explained it clear enough to understand the actual questions.

Your focus is on explaining it to us, when your focus should be on..................

Are you calling yourself a Theorist? As in the above word press theorist explains? Seriously? No wonder you keep falling back into your lecture mode of explaining.
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 8:50 pm 

Watson » June 27th, 2017, 7:30 pm wrote:
handmade » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:24 pm wrote:In reply to the link I will reply with a link. This is my wordpress page and what my mind went through in thinking in the past. I try to explain light several times in different bloggs.

https://wordpress.com/posts/theoristexp ... dpress.com

related content

https://wordpress.com/post/theoristexpl ... s.com/1171

Regards


Steve

and
I have questioned this for several years now, but this is the first time I think I have explained it clear enough to understand the actual questions.

Your focus is on explaining it to us, when your focus should be on..................

Are you calling yourself a Theorist? As in the above word press theorist explains? Seriously? No wonder you keep falling back into your lecture mode of explaining.


I might be a bit crazy and a bit of a crackpot but it does not hamper my ability to think, the links I provided was to give you a little bit of in sight of my mind. If you had looked at the links and looked further, there is several bloggs trying to explain the question. Forgive me if I am seemingly lecturing but when for years I have had disagreement and then finally I get some agreement , it as took me a bit by shock.
The above wordpress theorist is myself, banned from every science forum except this one and naked science.
Yes I am going to lecture if I think people are not listening, generally people listen before the comment back, people have being replying to me for years with practically just wiki quotes, not even listening or thinking about what I am saying.

You have already agreed with me in this thread, so regardless who I am or how ''crazy'' I am , I have premise for discussion about the nature of light.

My focus is on proving it to you....(which I can do in a £1 cost experiment).


Regards

Steve
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby handmade on June 27th, 2017, 9:06 pm 

cave.jpg


I have drew you a question.

cave1.jpg



added- to me I assume the wall has radioactive glow ?
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Re: Does light really exist?

Postby Watson on June 27th, 2017, 9:38 pm 

Good of you to come clean. No surprise you have been banned every where else, but just a matter of a mod getting around to it here I imagine. You do realize the blog links you provided are password access?
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