Trump Restates His Immigration policy

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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby zetreque on January 13th, 2018, 2:49 pm 

I never went down that path so I have no obligation to discuss that here. I have no wish to discuss only a tiny piece of this slop pile. You are the one going down the racism pathway which is sort of deflection. My stance is on how much rubbish is coming out of the govt daily and as Toucana mentions how stupid he is. My stance is that this is not leadership material and does not uplift the country, the world, or humanity.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Braininvat on January 13th, 2018, 6:32 pm 

BadgerJelly » January 13th, 2018, 10:50 am wrote:I am starting to think you are completely blinded by hatred here.

I was asking VERY clearly, if it was "racist" to call a country a "shithole" and whether it bother you that almost anything he says is portrayed as "racist"? For example, say you go on holiday to India and return to call the place a "shithole" ... does that make you a racist too?

Saying things like "Last year he said Kill all the Jews." and then referring to comments about the state of a country as being equally racist is disingenuous. I thought you'd be smart enough to see this. I guess not. What happens when you criticize a country or comment on its state of poverty, will you be called racist too?


Did you read the two postings prior to this quote? The list of bigoted remarks and actions was offered, not with hatred, but with a friendly gesture of informing you on matters of public record that are evidence of who Trump is. I pity Trump, who does seem to be one filled with hatred and contempt for many people. You seemed uncertain if Trump singling out African nations and Haiti as shitholes might be indicative of racism, so I tried to offer you, a British subject, a list that would give you a more precise focus on his attitudes towards black people as has been manifested on many prior occasions. Please read the lists and then explain to us how Trump is not a racist and bigot. I think the burden of supporting such an outlandish assertion is on you.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby zetreque on January 13th, 2018, 6:47 pm 

The only thing one needs to understand is that President shithole has been paraphrased to say things like "you just tell people and they believe you." That pretty much says it all. People spend hours and days trying to make sense of a man who lives his life and success by lying and telling people what they want to hear. He then gets caught in his lies more and more often being in the spotlight. People then deflect and go down the wrong path of division. It's like people are trying to defend him just because they honor the position of president but it's hard to do that when some shithole lied his way into the position that should be honored.

Just listen to the statements coming out of his mouth every single time he opens his mouth.

The other day he was on tv saying how people should be happy they had the privileged to vote for him. Seriously? Like we should all be down on our knees thanking him for letting us vote for him. I think he got it backwards. He should be the one privileged to have been nominated and voted for, for such a role.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby BadgerJelly on January 14th, 2018, 1:45 am 

Toucana -

p.s. - You seriously wonder why people regard him as an idiot, as well as a racist ?


Not in the slightest. I think the true idiots are the one's calling him an idiot. Saying idiotic things does not make someone an idiot. He is a bullying businessman as far as I can see. He has been successful by steam-rolling over his opponents and using any immediate means to do so.

His technique works because people buy into BS and pander to his every taunt and what I imagine is a purposely half-witted comment.

The idiocy is with those who expect someone who is not a politician to act like a politician. In their rage they then inspire the media to attach any label they can to him in order to undermine his authority (which is left to it he'd do so himself very quickly.)

If you play his game by his rules you'll lose. Next in line are Oprah and then likely Kayne ... in time we may even see Homer Simpson running. I guess it may actually make the democrats put forward a viable candidate next time rather than jump on the bandwagon of "celebrity."

At least Biv answered my question though. He doesn't regard it as a racist comment. If you look at the meida though they are all shouting out about this "racist" comment (even though it isn't actually racist.) My concern is that next time someone els ein the public eye saying they don't like this or that country they'll be called "racist" too. No doubt the people are already sifting through comments made by people these past few decades for such comments - maybe I am wrong, maybe few people will use this as an excuse to label other people as "racist." (I hope that is the case.)

It does worry me though given the attacks on free speech. There are some serious crackpots out there usng "racism" as a way to get there own way. I certainly do agree that Trump is doing very little to help this situation as his comments do further polarize the public - which if he is the kind of person I believe he is then that is precisely what he wishes to do.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Lomax on January 15th, 2018, 1:26 pm 

Well I rolled my eyes when I saw the cheap comments about Aryans and the alabaster sextet. Things like that don't make me angry, just bored. Last week Theresa May reconstituted the cabinet of the UK government to include more women and demographic "minorities", in order to make it "more like the country it serves". Of course those people are still nothing like the country they serve, and such a thing cannot be reduced to genitalia or complexion. A democratic government represents its country's people's interests, not their superficial appearances.

All the same, we have to distinguish denotation from connotation and should not be naive in doing so. The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are, then for me that makes them figures of sympathy rather than contempt. But in the context of Donald Trump's general views and behaviour, we ought to be suspicious about what motivates his somewhat unstatesmanlike choice of words. Take everything at face value if you must, but in the battle of ideas that will put you at the mercy of subtler minds.

As to whether we should make jokes about Donald Trump: of course we should. He is hilarious. The fact that he is more careful about drinking water from a glass than he is about diplomacy with the leader of the North Korean regime is very serious, but it is also funny. The fact that Trump ran on a platform of believing that America's problems were easy to solve and persisted purely on the corruption of the political establishment, only to discover early on that some problems are in fact complicated, is serious but it is also funny. Use or lose the ability to ridicule the ridiculous.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby zetreque on January 15th, 2018, 2:08 pm 

Lomax » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:26 am wrote:The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are,


Speaking of complicated. Are they really? Beautiful places can be found around the world even in degraded areas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Shithole countries took to the internet posting some beautiful pictures of their home. Then you have national pride. Then you have what lead them to be a "shithole" in the first place. Could it be dominating forces from overseas that lead to the shitholeness?

A man or woman in such a position should have at least a minute clue as to this concept before opening his or her mouth.

Not to mention having at least an understanding of how people might misinterpret his words which he has encountered more times than one can count. And even being warned about that fact in person by Obama.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Lomax on January 15th, 2018, 2:12 pm 

zetreque » January 15th, 2018, 7:08 pm wrote:
Lomax » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:26 am wrote:The sentence "Syria is a shithole country" is not racist. If Syrians are living in a shithole, which they are,


Speaking of complicated. Are they really?

Take it from a Rawlsian position: if you were about to be reincarnated, and had a choice of birthplace between Syria and the USA, which would you choose? Assuming self-interest. There are presumably some happy people in every country but on the whole Syria is surely a comparatively unpleasant place to live in 2018.

The British and French empires have done a lot to make Syria a chemical-charred warzone, which doesn't change the fact that it is one. As to whether those in power should be saying such things, I wholly agree. That is why I worked in the word "unstatesmanlike".
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby zetreque on January 15th, 2018, 2:32 pm 

Lomax » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:12 am wrote: if you were about to be reincarnated, and had a choice of birthplace between Syria and the USA, which would you choose? Assuming self-interest. There are presumably some happy people in every country but on the whole Syria is surely a comparatively unpleasant place to live in 2018.


There is no choice in such a decision and people only know what they were born into. It's relative and contextual. It is also if not racist (taken out of context of the man's history), extremely offensive and degrading to use such language. It's generalized and if not short sighted just plain idiotic. Stupidity or short sighted small mindedness resonates with his fan base.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Lomax on January 15th, 2018, 2:45 pm 

zetreque » January 15th, 2018, 7:32 pm wrote:There is no choice in such a decision and people only know what they were born into.

Zetreque, please don't pretend you don't understand the concept of a hypothetical question. As it happens people in different situations - both within and across international borders - do report different levels of happiness, and the UN makes a concerted effort to measure such things. I'm sure you will be staggered to discover that Syria ranks 152nd out of the 155 countries measured in the 2017 World Happiness Report. My country ranks 19th and yours ranks 14th. The country ranking 1st is Norway.

Of course, if it's all so "relative and contextual" that Syrians quite like being gassed by despots then Donald Trump's foreign and immigration policies make little difference to those people, and might as well be decided by the flip of a coin.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby zetreque on January 15th, 2018, 2:55 pm 

The hypothetical question has no relevance to me here. Syria was also just one country inferred by the comment. As a global citizen, the unpresidential comment also offends me as part of the problem, not the solution.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby toucana on January 15th, 2018, 7:53 pm 

According to White House press briefings reported by Washington Post staff last night, it seems that the WH now thinks that president Trump might have been misquoted.

https://twitter.com/jdawsey1/status/952720622689320962

Two arch conservative Republican senators Tom Cotton (Arkansas) and David Perdue (Georgia) who had been inserted into the meeting by Stephen Miller to 'keep things on track' originally said that they "could not recall hearing the president saying those comments specifically".

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/12/politics/senators-trump-comment-tom-cotton/index.html

After mature reflection, Cotton and Perdue apparently now concede that president Trump might have said "shithouse" countries rather than "shithole" countries.

Sen. Lindsey Graham the GOP leader of the bipartisan delegation was not impressed. - "I know what was said and I know what I said.. and my memory hasn’t evolved.”
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Lomax on January 15th, 2018, 8:08 pm 

Ha, I'm sure it hasn't. And "house" changes everything.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Braininvat on January 16th, 2018, 1:02 am 

The country ranking 1st is Norway.


Even I, in the second generation of Norwegians in America, am pining for the fjords. And I have not joined the bloody choir invisible.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby BadgerJelly on January 16th, 2018, 4:01 am 

Biv -

Always love a Python reference!
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby toucana on January 16th, 2018, 9:57 am 

In fiscal year 2016, exactly 362 Norwegians become permanent legal residents of the United States. Short of kidnapping Norwegians and using extreme rendition to coerce them to enter our shores, there is no way to increase Norwegian immigration.

And why should they come? Norway has full employment, a competitive private economy, one of the world’s most comprehensive welfare states, paid parental leave of a year after a child is born, universal health insurance, and free higher education. Its life expectancy far exceeds ours, its GDP per capita is $70,912, compared to $57,638 in the U.S. Citizen satisfaction surveys rate Norway as the world’s happiest country. And this was the case before they struck oil.

The place is pristine and almost crime-free. Indeed, from the perspective of Norway, it is America that looks like kind of a dritt hull – that’s Norwegian for shit-hole.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/how-do-you-say-shithole-in-norwegian_us_5a5c0fe4e4b0fcbc3a1167fe?section=us_politics
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Lomax on January 16th, 2018, 11:22 am 

Slightly oversells Norway - the US has a lower unemployment rate than Norway does. US PPP per capita is ~$59k while in Norway it's ~$62.5k. All the same, I can't see them queueing up.
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Re: Trump Restates His Immigration policy

Postby Braininvat on January 16th, 2018, 11:52 am 

They have the resources to exonerate rats...

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/health/black-death-plague-spread-by-humans-intl/index.html

...who would want to leave such a great nation? And they almost got to the North Pole! There's a museum in Oslo, IIRC, that's devoted to a failed expedition. Norwegians are a modest people - they rarely call attention to the pole they did reach first. They readily acknowledge that Scott's failure was far more interesting than Amundsen's success.
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