Hydrogen Fuel Cells

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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby zetreque on February 22nd, 2017, 4:12 am 

doogles » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:24 pm wrote:
Electrolyte flow cell technology has been around for decades, but it wasn’t until recently that certain car manufacturers were given the permission to start building cars that run on electrolyte flow cell technology.
This type of alternative energy technology will eventually make gasoline powered cars obsolete, because using electrolyte flow cell technology to power cars is a lot more efficient and much cleaner than using gasoline.



I am guessing it's because NASA released some patents or something.

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20161010-driving-the-saltwater-sports-car

The Quant made use of an ex-Nasa technology, a flow battery powered by 'ionic liquid' – that is, simple saline water. It's not quite as simple as filling the tank with sea water, but there's little question the system is environmentally friendly in ways no other propulsion system (save, perhaps, solar) could be.
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby doogles on February 23rd, 2017, 4:52 am 

Thanks for that feedback Zetrique. It was very informative.

I notice that the reporter of the link you provided said "The Quant made use of an ex-Nasa technology, a flow battery powered by 'ionic liquid' – that is, simple saline water. It's not quite as simple as filling the tank with sea water, but there's little question the system is environmentally friendly in ways no other propulsion system (save, perhaps, solar) could be."

The comment "friendly in ways no other propulsion system (save, perhaps, solar) could be." makes it sound even better than Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

I notice that it's a 'Commercial-in confidence process' at this stage.

I know it's early days, but do you have an opinion as to whether Hydrogen may already be outdated, and not worth investing in as a new technology?
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby zetreque on February 23rd, 2017, 5:09 am 

doogles » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:52 am wrote:
The comment "friendly in ways no other propulsion system (save, perhaps, solar) could be." makes it sound even better than Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

I notice that it's a 'Commercial-in confidence process' at this stage.

I know it's early days, but do you have an opinion as to whether Hydrogen may already be outdated, and not worth investing in as a new technology?


That statement sounds like just common publicity or vague news reporter jargon.

My opinion on hydrogen fuel cells is there is no way in hell you are going to see them go away right now. California has invested so much money in them over such a long period of time that they could almost be comparable to fossil fuel technologies in some ways. I have a hydrogen fuel cell fueling station only about 50 miles from my house actually. California being just one of... well see the previous 50 or so posts in this thread. There are a lot of players in the game right now and this has continually been growing since at least when I started following the industry in the year 1999.

OH, also!
About four months ago attended a lecture given by one of the people in charge of the California Air Resource Board near... tesla central. There were a lot of proud Tesla owners in the audience and by the end of the lecture presentation, they were all ready to trade in their Tesla's for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Among the reasons was trunk and interior space. lol

So, as for being outdated. With that respect they are brand new and growing market share in big ways. Just take a look at multi-carbonate hydrogen fuel cell stuff which the fracking industry is taking advantage of right now. Apparently can put units over fracking wells, and collect enough gas to make it economical. (I think it was fracking, maybe it was tar sands). That's why they aren't outdated. They are extremely versatile from powering cellphones to rockets. Hydrogen is attracted to water and you can get hydrogen from many different places. Even if we succeeded creating fusion reactors I imagine we would be using hydrogen fuel cells as part of the mix of energy technologies and hydrogen might even take over since I don't know of anything comparable myself.

The other point I can make is what I have read in a couple books. Superior technologies take time for market acceptance. There are a lot of factors that lead to something becoming common in society. Patents, being in the right time at the right place, policy, vested parties, standards, compatible products. One of the challenges with hydrogen is everyone for years and still are citing the Hindenburg incident. Gasoline is one of the most dangerous and easily obtainable substances in the world but people don't think about it that much. It takes a long time for products to be accepted even if they are better. Humans often don't like change, so it takes time for people to accept things. There is a lot of psychology involved so being outdated might not matter sometimes.
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby zetreque on February 23rd, 2017, 5:24 am 

I think it's also important to note the term appropriate technologies. Some technologies are best suited for some applications. So to think of something being outdated it begs the question to what application? hydrogen fuel cells cover the areas of stationary, mobile, micro, macro.

There are probably certain technologies that are far superior in combination for transportation perhaps but again it depends on what kind of transportation. Also what medium the hydrogen fuel is stored in. Liquid, gas, or compound.
viewtopic.php?f=77&t=29269&p=315623&hilit=batteries#p315620
but again it takes time for market acceptance and getting the policy and subsidies in the right place to get them out there.
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby Braininvat on February 23rd, 2017, 10:56 am 

The key fact for me has always been that H2 makes solar and wind energies, i.e. intermittent sources, storable and available on-demand. With large scale electrolysis, hydrogen becomes the simplest way to store energy.
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Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Postby zetreque on March 2nd, 2017, 1:47 pm 

Here is an interesting project.

Power to Gas
https://www.h2-international.com/2017/03/02/power-to-gas-for-homeowners/

Uses electricity from PV and grid to store energy in hydrogen and methane then converts that back to electricity and heat when needed. This is nothing new, but creating methane in combination with hydrogen seems somewhat new.

The production output of hydrogen and synthetic natural gas fluctuates because the control unit provides different fuel quantities based on individual calculations of current and forecast demand. The system can create up to 10 Nm³ of hydrogen and 2.5 Nm³ of synthesis gas per hour.

Excess eco-power will first be used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen inside the electrolyzer. With the help of a catalyst specifically designed for this task by the Rostock-based Leibniz Institute, hydrogen will be directly converted into methane by adding CO2 (Sabatier reaction) stored in a natural gas tank. If required, the methane can be burned and the subsequently released CO2 fed again into the closed process and reused for methanization. The modified combustion process does not release any nitrous gases, which could harm the environment.

“Our plant has no steady system or utilization efficiency; both will fluctuate based on the mode of operation, consumption and energy sources,” Schirmer explained. Simulations show efficiency values ranging between 70 and 80 percent.
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