Trump's inauguration speech

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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby vivian maxine on January 21st, 2017, 4:47 pm 

Well said, zetreque. And he has already shown us what he is going to do. I shall be very surprised if he changes his spots. His attitude to the masses goes way back, much farther than his political career. His clamp down on the National Park Service's right to speak isn't an eye-opener. Surely no one is surprised.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Natural ChemE on January 21st, 2017, 4:50 pm 

Folks,

As a general comment, I don't think that divisiveness is likely to win over anyone from an opposing perspective. If anything, the antipathy created by divisive rhetoric invites those from all sides to overlook their own side's shortcomings because, hey, the other guys are worse, right?

For those who dislike Trump, I'd suggest demonstrating the strength of character that Trump lacks. Otherwise, we normalize Trump's character flaws. This not only leaves precious little reason for his would-be supporters to reject him, but allows his weak character some political immortality even after the man himself is long gone.

Whatever his flaws, Trump is the sitting President of the United States of America. We need to rise, to be better than what we were, to overcome the challenge that his leadership presents. America is too great to succumb to an injury as light as a poor choice of President. We will continue to be a great nation that rises above all challenges.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Braininvat on January 21st, 2017, 5:29 pm 

Hello. I posted the NYT piece because it addressed the content of the speech (the forum topic) and pointed out some factual errors in the speaker's assessment of the nation's condition. One can have any opinion on the belligerent and isolationist tone, but remarks that directly contradict facts (% change in unemployment, % change in crime rate, etc.) must be called out. We won't rise to any challenges without solid facts and the freedom to challenge lies and crass stupidities, in all our elected officials.

I know you were commenting generally, NCE, and that things were heated yesterday. But I attribute everyone's heat to their caring about this country and not to a flaw in their characters. I am very happy that everyone here cares about truth, and craves facts over spin or sloganeering.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Forest_Dump on January 21st, 2017, 9:27 pm 

While not ignoring everythng else, one little thing caught my eye in the editorial posted:

Braininvat wrote:Mr. Trump offered a fantastical version of America losing its promise, military dominance and middle-class wealth to “the ravages of other countries making our products, stealing our companies and destroying our jobs.”


In particular "stealing our companies". What does this kind of statement mean? A definite problem, IMHO, has been the tendency for people to sell off their land, property, etc., to anyone willing to pay the highest dollar (with no concern about the new owner being able to export any proprietary knowledge (e.g., patents, trade secrets) and virtually anything at all including weapons, etc.) but I would be the first to admit that I have no idea at all in how to stop it. In fact, think how much debt is held by foreign countries in the form of treasury bonds, etc. But does this potentially signal that Trump might put limits on foreign purchase and ownership of companies deemed to be US? Something like that could have an incredibly disasterous impact on the US economy (not to mention everyones pension funds and investments, etc.

This, by the way, illustrates what I was saying about some of Trump's ideas having some potential merit but his penchant for speaking or actin without thinking carefully could have tremendous unforeseen consequences. Of course, all that said, I have no doubt that the Republicans alone will have jumped on his head over that little bit alone by now.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 22nd, 2017, 1:05 am 

"everyone here cares about truth, and craves facts over spin or sloganeering"? You certainly cannot say that about the fake news media: http://www.cnn.com Will you just look at this nice looking smiling young woman with the American flag wrapped around her head no less, representing the protesters against that nasty old right winger Trump and his very recent inauguration?

People have been telling me for years on the forum that there is actually no collective bias from the MSM against the right wing, and I must be some kind of conspiracy nut to think such silly thoughts. Yet, anyone with a brain should be able to see who is favored here again by the MSM in regards to today's protest.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby vivian maxine on January 22nd, 2017, 8:01 am 

I don't know how we can accuse other countries of "stealing our companies". From what I've observed, it seems most of our companies went quite willingly of their own volition - taking advantage of people desperate enough for jobs to work at less than a living wage.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 22nd, 2017, 11:52 am 

vivian maxine » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:01 am wrote:I don't know how we can accuse other countries of "stealing our companies". From what I've observed, it seems most of our companies went quite willingly of their own volition - taking advantage of people desperate enough for jobs to work at less than a living wage.


Good point Vivian. But "stealing" does have a nicer ring to it when you want to "fire up" the throops. :)
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby vivian maxine on January 22nd, 2017, 12:00 pm 

ronjanec » January 22nd, 2017, 10:52 am wrote:
vivian maxine » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:01 am wrote:I don't know how we can accuse other countries of "stealing our companies". From what I've observed, it seems most of our companies went quite willingly of their own volition - taking advantage of people desperate enough for jobs to work at less than a living wage.


Good point Vivian. But "stealing" does have a nicer ring to it when you want to "fire up" the throops. :)


Probably right. Find someone else to load the guilt onto. Then find a way to get them back into America as an American product - "assembled in America". That way, no tariffs to pay.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Athena on January 22nd, 2017, 1:17 pm 

zetreque » January 20th, 2017, 6:43 pm wrote:Is that seriously the turnout for Trump? Can we get confirmation? And probably half of Trump's crowd is protestors.
I haven't seen or watched any news except a headline saying "Trump calls for unity"
That has to be some sort of oxymoron to his campaign. Sounds like a dictatorship to me.



That is how the crowd looked when Trump spoke at the fair grounds in Eugene, Oregon. When I drove by, all I saw was protesters. But to be fair a small bar did fill up when he was inaugurated. The bar had 6 TV's and at least one Republican was moved to tears of joy, according to our local newspaper.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Athena on January 22nd, 2017, 1:36 pm 

vivian maxine » January 22nd, 2017, 10:00 am wrote:
ronjanec » January 22nd, 2017, 10:52 am wrote:
vivian maxine » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:01 am wrote:I don't know how we can accuse other countries of "stealing our companies". From what I've observed, it seems most of our companies went quite willingly of their own volition - taking advantage of people desperate enough for jobs to work at less than a living wage.


Good point Vivian. But "stealing" does have a nicer ring to it when you want to "fire up" the throops. :)


Probably right. Find someone else to load the guilt onto. Then find a way to get them back into America as an American product - "assembled in America". That way, no tariffs to pay.


How about the quality of the product? I think we have an economic problem because we can buy clothing cheaper from an Asian country that if we bought the material and made our own clothes, as we once did to save money. Then on top of that the quality of patterns and sewing pins from China are so poor, it really takes the fun out of sewing. Both of these factors contribute to buying products from a catalogue that are imported, but when you get the product that looked beautiful in the catalogue, you can see the quality is so inferior you regret spending the money.

It is like junk food school lunches served on plastic trays presented to school children as good eating, and giving them 15 minutes to get the lunch and eat the lunch, so the next batch of children can use the lunch room. I wonder where we are going from here?

I am so old, I remember when buses and trains ran on time, and many common business practices today would have been considered completely lacking in integrity.

I see many signs that our country is going down the drain, and I love the Micheal Moore movie, 'Where to Invade Next' for making me aware of that things could be much better than they are.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby vivian maxine on January 22nd, 2017, 1:46 pm 

You are so right, Athena, about the quality. It is worse with clothing than anything. But it's true of many products. Last week, I started to use my can opener. Very simple little device of two handles, a blade and a wheel for turning. It fell apart. Looking for a brand name, all I found was "Made in China".

Speaking of remembering when, do you remember the fussing about "Made in Japan"? I can't recall if their quality was better or not. Surely did become better in later years.

One good thing about being able to remember when trains and busses ran on time - along with everything else - is that we at least know it can be done.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 22nd, 2017, 3:15 pm 

Trump was not loved in "liberal heaven" Eugene Oregon when he was there!? Well, "that's rather shocking" Athena!
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Athena on January 22nd, 2017, 8:58 pm 

ronjanec » January 22nd, 2017, 1:15 pm wrote:Trump was not loved in "liberal heaven" Eugene Oregon when he was there!? Well, "that's rather shocking" Athena!


The shock was that Trump winning the election. I so wish we could go back in time, like could do with old empire Nintendo games, and put in Bernie Sanders. I am afraid Hilary just had too much going against her.

But really, someone in a science forum is in favor of having a president who denies global warming?
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Athena on January 22nd, 2017, 9:54 pm 

vivian maxine » January 22nd, 2017, 11:46 am wrote:You are so right, Athena, about the quality. It is worse with clothing than anything. But it's true of many products. Last week, I started to use my can opener. Very simple little device of two handles, a blade and a wheel for turning. It fell apart. Looking for a brand name, all I found was "Made in China".

Speaking of remembering when, do you remember the fussing about "Made in Japan"? I can't recall if their quality was better or not. Surely did become better in later years.

One good thing about being able to remember when trains and busses ran on time - along with everything else - is that we at least know it can be done.


Thank you so much for the confirmation! I worry that today's young will never know it is possible to have buses and trains that run on time, and products that last. I swear I will never replace my old vacuum, etc. with new, and I hate that I had to replace my computer. This new computer can't play any of my old games, and I can't even play solitary without being bombarded with advertisements. The games didn't come with constant advertising and they were not subject to change that is out of my control. With the old we held control and now that control has been taken from us.

I have two old computers left and I am holding on to them. One is older than the internet. The other needs fixing and I am waiting until I can find the right person to fix it, because it will play my games.

It is also possible to have honest people who assume everyone lives with integrity until proven otherwise, and no one did business with someone who lacked integrity. Now we can not believe the scientist who have explained global warming, because we don't trust anyone any more. How terribly foolish to attempt to put someone who is not trusted into office as was done with Hillary! People are justifying very poor decision making on the grounds we don't know who to trust, so just go with what suits you at the moment and don't worry.

As for made in Japan meaning cheap and poor quality, yes that did result because of the American efforts to Americanize Japan with industry, but Deming went to Japan and told them not to do things as we did, and he gave then democratic management of industry and quality control. Before this Japan's industry was not well developed. This problem comes when a country transitions from craftsmen to industry. The masses are not disciplined craftsmen, and neither is the industrialist out to make a fast buck, with only money on the line, not his place in the community.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 22nd, 2017, 11:42 pm 

Athena, I would have still voted for Trump instead of Horrible Hillary, even if he had said that he was convinced that the moon was made of "green cheese".
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Serpent on January 23rd, 2017, 1:49 am 

ronjanec » January 22nd, 2017, 10:42 pm wrote:Athena, I would have still voted for Trump instead of Horrible Hillary, even if he had said that he was convinced that the moon was made of "green cheese".

And that he's going to export your job there?
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Dave_Oblad on January 23rd, 2017, 2:58 am 

Hi Vivian (and others),

I can tell you from first hand experience that if Trump does as he suggests, it will ruin our economy. In particular, the company I work for has to survive in a competitive market. If we make a circuit board here with our labor costs and material costs, the board would sell for about $250. When we include the rest of the product and local labor, our product will cost about $1500.00. We can't compete with imported products that do the same thing, so we farm the manufacturing to China and get our board for about $25. This allows us to be cost competitive with foreign products and local products using the same technique.

So, to keep our jobs here, we must raise taxes (tariffs) on imports. Fine.. we can stay in business and employ local labor.. and you will have to pay 800% more for a product. But you can't afford such a high price, so our sales drops and we have to close down the company as we can't afford to stay in business. So the few employees that we already have become jobless, including me.

All those fancy DVD players, Printers and Color Television sets that cost from $100 to $200 will now cost you $1000 to $2000. Forget those fancy Cell Phones, no one will be able to afford one. So all our local consumers go back to the dark ages and many jobs dry up. We can't afford local labor costs. Unless we go back to the minimum wage Textile Mills and work twice the hours for 25% the current pay.

Of course a better solution would be to use more robotics in manufacturing. That will drop the local prices and still, no one can buy these products, because most people will be without jobs. The obvious solution is we all go to work for the Military at $2.00 per day and become like China. Is that what we really want?

Bottom line: Trump can't keep his promise without destroying America.

Then again.. if we lean heavily on Robotics and sell to the world.. then perhaps we can afford to pay people not to work.. and become a welfare country with lots of leisure time. That sounds fine to me if we distribute world sales equally among our citizens. Can that happen or will corporate America still keep the lions share to themselves? What has history taught us?

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 10:05 am 

Good post Dave. That sounds really scary, and I certainly hope you are wrong about this.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 11:21 am 

Serpent » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:49 pm wrote:
ronjanec » January 22nd, 2017, 10:42 pm wrote:Athena, I would have still voted for Trump instead of Horrible Hillary, even if he had said that he was convinced that the moon was made of "green cheese".

And that he's going to export your job there?


He is certainly welcome to export my current crappy part time job there Serpent, and I will then just go out and get another crappy part time job. :)
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby jocular on January 23rd, 2017, 11:33 am 

If the US puts up tariffs on Chinese goods then will the Chinese sell to Europe or Dar es Salaam who will re -export them to the States?

Is (economic) Globalism not a fact of life rather than a preference?
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby vivian maxine on January 23rd, 2017, 11:50 am 

jocular » January 23rd, 2017, 10:33 am wrote:If the US puts up tariffs on Chinese goods then will the Chinese sell to Europe or Dar es Salaam who will re -export them to the States?

Is (economic) Globalism not a fact of life rather than a preference?



Jocular, have you ever read Wendell Wilkie's "One World"? His idea lost him the election but I think it is now happening without him. I never heard it called "economic globalism". Sounds like a good name for it. If everything evens out (meaning all parts of the economy), fine. But that evening out has to include wages which, as of now, it is not. We shall see.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 11:55 am 

jocular » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:33 am wrote:If the US puts up tariffs on Chinese goods then will the Chinese sell to Europe or Dar es Salaam who will re -export them to the States?

Is (economic) Globalism not a fact of life rather than a preference?


The Chinese are already selling their goods to Europe and just about everyone else: If the US started putting large tariffs on all imported Chinese goods, and they were then not able to sell their goods to us, their entire economy would almost certainly collapse.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Braininvat on January 23rd, 2017, 12:45 pm 

Dave's post is spot on. Everyone I know who is in the IT industry is saying the same thing, with solid figures to back it up. For better or worse, we need China as the world's factory floor right now.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby BadgerJelly on January 23rd, 2017, 1:06 pm 

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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Lomax on January 23rd, 2017, 1:12 pm 

ronjanec » January 23rd, 2017, 4:55 pm wrote:
jocular » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:33 am wrote:If the US puts up tariffs on Chinese goods then will the Chinese sell to Europe or Dar es Salaam who will re -export them to the States?

Is (economic) Globalism not a fact of life rather than a preference?


The Chinese are already selling their goods to Europe and just about everyone else: If the US started putting large tariffs on all imported Chinese goods, and they were then not able to sell their goods to us, their entire economy would almost certainly collapse.

So: does it concern you that your favoured president advocates the impoverishment of 1.4 billion people?
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 1:26 pm 

The real problem here for the US in regards to "Globalism" today, is the fact that after the world war, the rest of the world's manufacturing base was mostly destroyed, and the US was basically the only game in town in regards to the ability to sell their goods to everyone else in the world: Or in other words, we basically had no competition in regards to our selling the rest of the world our products.

Our manufacturers being able to sell almost everything they produced for a time, then led to the workers in the US demanding and then receiving higher wages on a continuous basis for many years. This in itself then led to the cost of living here in the US being much higher in comparison to rest of the world.

In the 1960's/1970's, the rest of the world started to catch up and again become competition for the US in selling their manufactured goods to other countries and they were also starting to do this with brand new and much more efficient manufacturing plants than the US in many cases.

Then in the 1980's, the other countries started really selling their cheaper and sometimes better quality products in the US, our cost of living was again much higher in comparison to them, and we could not then lower our prices to compete with them, and what is now known as "the Rust Belt" then began, and many US manufactures went out of business.

Then in the 1990's, China came into the market with even lower prices, and started to clobber everyone else including the US to an even greater extent.

So what is the "solution" for the US in regards to this "Globalism" problem in selling our manufactured goods and other expensive products to the rest of the world and competing again?

Automation is of course one "solution" to the same problem, but what will "Joe Sixpack" and the rest of us do for a living then? I guess the other "solution" for us is to have another even greater than the last one "Great Depression" in the US, to bring our cost of living and wages way down in comparison to the other countries. :)
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Lomax on January 23rd, 2017, 1:40 pm 

I guess that asking for an answer to my question is asking too much. So now the Right-wing advocates the interference of politicians into the market, to control prices and trade flow. Sounds suspiciously like socialism to me.

Except that, typically, it is undertaken to favour the rich over the poor - "socialism for the rich and capitalism for everybody else".
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 1:46 pm 

Lomax » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:12 am wrote:
ronjanec » January 23rd, 2017, 4:55 pm wrote:
jocular » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:33 am wrote:If the US puts up tariffs on Chinese goods then will the Chinese sell to Europe or Dar es Salaam who will re -export them to the States?

Is (economic) Globalism not a fact of life rather than a preference?


The Chinese are already selling their goods to Europe and just about everyone else: If the US started putting large tariffs on all imported Chinese goods, and they were then not able to sell their goods to us, their entire economy would almost certainly collapse.

So: does it concern you that your favoured president advocates the impoverishment of 1.4 billion people?


I'm much more concerned with the potential impoverishment of the 325 million or so people living here in the US, if we don't start looking out for our own interests first instead of worrying about everyone else. America First.

(Edit. Hey, give me a little more time to answer Lomax!) :)
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby Lomax on January 23rd, 2017, 1:53 pm 

ronjanec » January 23rd, 2017, 6:46 pm wrote:I'm much more concerned with the potential impoverishment of the 325 million or so people living here in the US, if we don't start looking out for our own interests first instead of worrying about everyone else. America First.

So "if they were then not able to sell their goods to us, their entire economy would almost certainly collapse", and yet your country, which has the power to do this with a simple tariff policy, is in danger of impoverishment? Such an argument wants to have it both ways.
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Re: Trump's inauguration speech

Postby ronjanec on January 23rd, 2017, 2:11 pm 

Lomax,

I am not in favor of doing anything to the Chinese people that would possibly cause their destruction ok? All I am trying to say here is, that in our business and other dealings with the Chinese people, we need to put our own national interests first, just like they have been doing to us for years.
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