Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

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Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby SciameriKen on January 24th, 2017, 10:15 pm 

ronjanec » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:52 am wrote:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-24/trump-sign-executive-order-restricting-immigration-seven-nations

Sounds like tomorrow's hot topic? Am I the only one who's head is literally spinning in trying to absorb all this breaking news from the Oval Office in such a very short time?



Tons to discuss -- this is the one that has me baffled:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-2 ... -prices-us

Why do American's want the Keystone pipeline? This just allows big oil to export everything they are producing in Canada and North Dakota around the world - driving prices up here.

Trump is signing this stuff so fast I wonder if he even knows what he is signing - probably not.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby ronjanec on January 24th, 2017, 10:54 pm 

SK,

I wanted it because I believed it would create some high paying jobs while they were working on this, and I also liked the idea of a pipeline of a large quantity of oil going through the country, that we could always tap into in an emergency: Plus we are going to make lots of money from this by charging those wacky liberals up north for the privilege right? And us being able to sell more of our oil all around the world has got to be good for our economy, and also create more jobs in the oil industry and other related fields.

On the other hand, I did not know that this was going to possibly raise my personal gas prices, but I always do seem to personally come out on the short end of the stick no matter what the government does.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 24th, 2017, 11:14 pm 

ronjanec » January 24th, 2017, 8:52 pm wrote: Am I the only one who's head is literally spinning in trying to absorb all this breaking news from the Oval Office in such a very short time?

Yup. You were told what would happen, but you didn't listen.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 24th, 2017, 11:22 pm 

SciameriKen » January 24th, 2017, 9:15 pm wrote:Why do American's want the Keystone pipeline? This just allows big oil to export everything they are producing in Canada and North Dakota around the world - driving prices up here.

Yeah, but there is a lot of fast profit to be had before the first (of many) spills. By then, they'll be tax- and litigation-proof; the state where it happens will pick up the tab for cleanup.

Trump is signing this stuff so fast I wonder if he even knows what he is signing - probably not.

Sure he knows. He's signing many thousands of death sentences. He doesn't care. He'll be out of there before the worst of it happens. There will be a few high-paying contract positions (that means, no liability for the company if somebody's maimed or killed on the site) and a bunch of low-paid temporary scut jobs, with no health or pension benefits.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby ronjanec on January 24th, 2017, 11:27 pm 

Serpent » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:14 pm wrote:
ronjanec » January 24th, 2017, 8:52 pm wrote: Am I the only one who's head is literally spinning in trying to absorb all this breaking news from the Oval Office in such a very short time?

Yup. You were told what would happen, but you didn't listen.


I am actually very pleased with the really fast pace of his campaign promises starting to become actual administration policy Serpent: I was again just saying that the really fast pace of the news being reported was very hard to keep up with and absorb personally.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Forest_Dump on January 24th, 2017, 11:39 pm 

ronjanec wrote:I am actually very pleased with the really fast pace of his campaign promises starting to become actual administration policy Serpent: I was again just saying that the really fast pace of the news being reported was very hard to keep up with and absorb personally.


No doubt true. Normally you would expect a politician to think things through, weigh the pros and cons, etc., but Trump doesn't work that way. After all, its not his money (he doesn't pay taxes, remember). But then again, a lot of these things have been on the Republican party agenda for quite some time and will enrich a lot of backers, etc. who have had to wait over 8 years to get their hands. And its not like there is going to be any real opposition. Something like a private sector pipeline can roll through all kinds of peoples' provate property, not to mention native people lands and treaty rights, with nary a thought for any consequences or morality or right or wrong.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby ronjanec on January 24th, 2017, 11:54 pm 

Forest, he has had some time since early November to think these things through, and he also had the time to think about this before he was even elected.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 6:40 am 

ronjanec » January 24th, 2017, 9:54 pm wrote:SK,

I wanted it because I believed it would create some high paying jobs while they were working on this, and I also liked the idea of a pipeline of a large quantity of oil going through the country, that we could always tap into in an emergency: Plus we are going to make lots of money from this by charging those wacky liberals up north for the privilege right? And us being able to sell more of our oil all around the world has got to be good for our economy, and also create more jobs in the oil industry and other related fields.

On the other hand, I did not know that this was going to possibly raise my personal gas prices, but I always do seem to personally come out on the short end of the stick no matter what the government does.


ronjanec, correct me if I am - once more - misinformed. I did not think the oil going through this pipeline was ours (ours being USA oil). It was my understanding that we will be piping Canadian oil to Texas where it will then be exported to other countries and we will be paid a pittance for allowing our cousins to the north to ship across our states to the Gulf.

At least that was how I read it way back when the fussing first started. Wrong?
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Forest_Dump on January 25th, 2017, 8:51 am 

vivian maxine wrote:ronjanec, correct me if I am - once more - misinformed. I did not think the oil going through this pipeline was ours (ours being USA oil). It was my understanding that we will be piping Canadian oil to Texas where it will then be exported to other countries and we will be paid a pittance for allowing our cousins to the north to ship across our states to the Gulf.

At least that was how I read it way back when the fussing first started. Wrong?


Sadly, it is a lot more complicated than that and includes decades of political spin and regional wrangling n Canada. This is the tar sands crud from northern Alberta. It was long known about but wasn't economically viable untl relatively recently when the price of oil went up (for many reasons). It is relatively easy to extract but it is very dirty and expensive to process or move to be processed. Canada has now approved construction of three pipelines, two to the west coast of B.C. where it can be shipped elsewhere in the world for processing (especially Asia, i.e., China probably). Bascially whoever pays best. The Keystone adds a third route, down to Texas for refining and another, fourth, pipeline to eastern Canada for refining or shipping, is in progress.

The Keystone is argued to be good for Canada because it does allow for relatively safe (for Canada) and low cost transport outside Canada's borders to a good customer (the US). It is good for the US in that it will allow relatively safe access (not much chance Canada would militarily or politically block access and create jobs refining down in Texas (plus temp jobs building the pipeline and a few maintaining). The down side for the US is if there is a spill, most likely it will be somewhere in the US and not pollute Canadian soil (the other pipelines involve longer distances). And refining that stuff will create some nasty pollution - but that is down n Texas so who cares?

There is a lot of political dogma and hyperbola with not many telling many truths. Those opposed to this or any pipeline are basically against any exploitation of the Alberta tar sands crud because of the unavoidable pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, danger from inevitable spills, etc. but it also has to do with arguments about the pipeline(s) crossing private property, including or especially native lands. Arguments in favour include that these concerns are exaggerated, there will be jobs created, North Americans will get some cheap and safely supplied gas and oil (without giving money to countries we don't like), American companies will makes lots of money and some governments (e.g., Alberta and Canada in general) will get lots of tax dollars.

But is gets wilder than this simple summary.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 10:59 am 

I did know all that, Forest, but your summary is far better than I'd have done. One question. Come a spill in Nebraska (or?) who pays for the clean-up?

Oh, by the way. Something else I read long ago but never got confirmed. The pipeline was going to take a short jog into and back out of Missouri. If I remember rightly that was changed but some gullible Missourians thought our state was going to get rich. Ha!
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Forest_Dump on January 25th, 2017, 11:05 am 

vivian maxine wrote:I did know all that, Forest, but your summary is far better than I'd have done. One question. Come a spill in Nebraska (or?) who pays for the clean-up?


Well in theory whoever owns the pipeline. However, the practical reality is that these people know how to manipulate the law, insurance, liability, etc., so in the end the tax payer always gets stuck with far more than planned - assuming there is a full clean-up in which case the future generations of the people in the area and downstream, etc., pay with their health etc.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 11:18 am 

Forest_Dump » January 25th, 2017, 10:05 am wrote:
vivian maxine wrote:I did know all that, Forest, but your summary is far better than I'd have done. One question. Come a spill in Nebraska (or?) who pays for the clean-up?


Well in theory whoever owns the pipeline. However, the practical reality is that these people know how to manipulate the law, insurance, liability, etc., so in the end the tax payer always gets stuck with far more than planned - assuming there is a full clean-up in which case the future generations of the people in the area and downstream, etc., pay with their health etc.


All true. I've noticed that most oil spills in the Gulf or around Alaska are cleaned up by volunteers. Well, not exactly that. The birds are cleaned up by volunteers. That's more accurate.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2017, 11:30 am 

Once all the environmental protection laws and agencies are dismantled (at this rate, it won't take long), people and wildlife will be pretty much on their own. There are only so many volunteers, and only so much charitable funding to go around to an awful lot of disasters.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 12:04 pm 

SciameriKen » January 24th, 2017, 4:37 pm wrote:
vivian maxine » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:04 pm wrote:SK, is Time magazine on that chart? I don't see it.



It wasn't very comprehensive - from what I've seen of time I'd put it near MSNBC if MSNBC were rightly placed lower in journalistic quality, perhaps between meets high standards and basic AF



Thank you, SK. Good to know that as I'm not impressed with Time. A neighbor has been sharing hers. So I take an occasional scan through the headlines.

Washington Post seems to get two placements. Or I don't understand the big blue bubbles - Fox News and Washington Post.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Forest_Dump on January 25th, 2017, 1:37 pm 

I do overlook that I definitely like to read The Economist when I can get it.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2017, 1:57 pm 

vivian maxine » January 25th, 2017, 11:04 am wrote: Or I don't understand the big blue bubbles - Fox News and Washington Post.

There is a message in bolded text next to each of the bubbles that, I think, refer to everything inside that radius. (Are you sure the second Post isn't Huffington?)
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 2:16 pm 

Serpent » January 25th, 2017, 12:57 pm wrote:
vivian maxine » January 25th, 2017, 11:04 am wrote: Or I don't understand the big blue bubbles - Fox News and Washington Post.

There is a message in bolded text next to each of the bubbles that, I think, refer to everything inside that radius. (Are you sure the second Post isn't Huffington?)


It may be, Serpent. I am having to use a magnifier to read parts of that and some parts I still cannot read. One is a green bar almost illegible. I thought it said Washington Post. I'll try again.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 25th, 2017, 2:22 pm 

vivian maxine » January 25th, 2017, 1:16 pm wrote:[

It may be, Serpent. I am having to use a magnifier to read parts of that and some parts I still cannot read. One is a green bar almost illegible. I thought it said Washington Post. I'll try again.

Use the link below. Might be worth bookmarking.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 25th, 2017, 3:49 pm 

Serpent » January 25th, 2017, 1:22 pm wrote:
vivian maxine » January 25th, 2017, 1:16 pm wrote:[

It may be, Serpent. I am having to use a magnifier to read parts of that and some parts I still cannot read. One is a green bar almost illegible. I thought it said Washington Post. I'll try again.

Use the link below. Might be worth bookmarking.


You were right. It is Huffington.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby vivian maxine on January 26th, 2017, 8:51 am 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/worl ... 71439&_r=0

You can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but..... PM Justin Trudeau is learning the hard way.

Second to last paragraph adds a small light to the story. Seems our oil barons have been investing in Canada's oil sands. That explains a lot? No surprise there?

There will be no wall between Canada and USA.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Braininvat on January 26th, 2017, 11:09 am 

Seems to have drifted, way back down the thread, from PBS defunding to the Keystonee XL pipeline. Probably needs its own thread? Those just joining us, looking for discussion of PBS, et al. may be confused. Can't do it atm, but will be back. (later: thread split)

As I joined with conservative Nebraska ranchers in fighing the pipeline (when I lived in Nebraska), I will recuse myself from this chat. Will only say that many do not fully understand the hydrology and geology of the Sandhills terrain the pipeline was routed through, or the key role of the Ogallala Aquifer to our food supply. It's worth studying, whatever your politics.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2017, 11:25 am 

Those just joining us, looking for discussion of PBS, et al. may be confused. .....
Will only say that many do not fully understand the hydrology and geology of the Sandhills terrain the pipeline was routed through, or the key role of the Ogallala Aquifer to our food supply. It's worth studying, whatever your politics.


With public broadcasters gone and public libraries (a completely unnecessary tax expenditure, yes?), how can they find out? *
All they need to know is: This is a terrible idea. All oil pipelines, like all oil transport, like all deep-water and tar-sand and every other kind of oil extraction, and the use of oil as fuel and fabric, are a terrible idea.

You know how, if you dig up a graveyard, the ghosts all start acting out?
Expect the revenge of all the extinct species.

(*there you go, back on topic.)
Last edited by Serpent on January 26th, 2017, 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby Forest_Dump on January 26th, 2017, 11:27 am 

vivian maxine wrote:You can please all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but..... PM Justin Trudeau is learning the hard way.

Second to last paragraph adds a small light to the story. Seems our oil barons have been investing in Canada's oil sands. That explains a lot? No surprise there?


There are some important points left out. The tar sands are not as important now because the OPEC nations have not reduced their high production levels which they maintain with the intention of lowering the price of oil so as to drive higher cost producers out of the market. The tar sands was/is one of the higher cost producers. So is domestic fracking in the US which is also being relatively more productive. But all these sources of fossil fuel are finite so sooner or later, unless the world stops burning fossil fuel, the tar sands will all be needed as will Alaskan off-shore oil, etc.

vivian maxine wrote:There will be no wall between Canada and USA.


Well, not yet. Trump's Iron Curtain plans for now are just between the US and Mexico but if too many companies and people flee north to escape and/or take advantage of freer access to world markets, you never know. The question might become who wants it more: Trump to keep people in or Canada to prevent or stem a refugee crisis. :)
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Re: Trump Set To Cut NEA, PBS & NPR Funding

Postby SciameriKen on January 26th, 2017, 1:49 pm 

ronjanec » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:54 am wrote:SK,

I wanted it because I believed it would create some high paying jobs while they were working on this, and I also liked the idea of a pipeline of a large quantity of oil going through the country, that we could always tap into in an emergency: Plus we are going to make lots of money from this by charging those wacky liberals up north for the privilege right? And us being able to sell more of our oil all around the world has got to be good for our economy, and also create more jobs in the oil industry and other related fields.

On the other hand, I did not know that this was going to possibly raise my personal gas prices, but I always do seem to personally come out on the short end of the stick no matter what the government does.




Let's see, according the Vivian the oil barons are heavily invested in Canadian oil. Oil barons are well connected to right wing news outlets. Right wing news outlets strongly support the oil pipeline.

So Ron - do you believe:
1) The oil pipeline will create jobs as right wing news outlets project
or
2) You were just played by oil barons looking to make a buck?
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby ronjanec on January 26th, 2017, 2:00 pm 

SK,

1) Yes, I of course believe this will create jobs if constructed...how could it not?(what am I missing here?)

And in other news today via the Drudge Report: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/p ... .html?_r=0
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby SciameriKen on January 26th, 2017, 2:19 pm 

ronjanec » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:00 pm wrote:SK,

1) Yes, I of course believe this will create jobs if constructed...how could it not?(what am I missing here?)

And in other news today via the Drudge Report: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/25/us/p ... .html?_r=0



Always taking the easy out on these debates- lol

yes it will create jobs - so would bulldozing NYC and then rebuilding it. Does that make this a good thing? Is the job creation meaningful and sustaining - what is the risk/reward on this? I'll rephrase the question to increase the difficulty for you :)

So do you believe:
1) The oil pipeline will substantially improve the quality of life of low and middle class American's
or
2) you were just played


Regarding the link you posted that would probably be a whole other thread - Trump keeps us busy!!
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby ronjanec on January 26th, 2017, 2:31 pm 

1) No, but it will temporarily improve the lives of many Americans during it's construction.

I do believe it will create a lot of high paying temporary jobs during it's construction SK, and also a lot of temporary jobs in the supply chain(domestic steel and related piping products) So I again think it's a good idea for this, and again for a number of other reasons that I already mentioned. Your point? :)

("the easy out"? I am also trying to watch the Trump news conference at the same time that I'm posting here SK) :)
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby Forest_Dump on January 26th, 2017, 3:04 pm 

One of the kinds of questions I often ask myself on topics like this is "is this the kind of job I would want or willingly take? Why or why not?" And so, when any politician on the left or right talks about jobs I instinctively wonder if it is the kind of job they would work at or want their kids to work at. Of course, we know this is the kind of work Trump has never done, would never do and we know his kids (and grandkids) are just groomed to remain in the corporate and now political elite. I now it will never happen but wouldn't it be great if we have a political leader who actually knew what it was like to work for a living and sweat over mortgage payments? Sadly they all tend to migrate to the extremes (and usually the left).
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby vivian maxine on January 26th, 2017, 4:31 pm 

I can't document this as it was sent by a friend. Perhaps someone knows where/how to find it?

"The White House is tearing up the web page, they've taken down the Spanish language version completely, and removed the page on climate change and replaced it with energy aims, and they've taken down all the info on the Civil Rights movement in the past century."

On one thing we must all agree. Our new president is keeping things so interesting that we will stay alert for the next four years. Been ages since I payed such close attention to doings in D.C.
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Re: Keystone Pipeline (split from PBS defunding thread)

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2017, 5:07 pm 

Alert, you may be. But staying informed will keep getting harder.
Pretty soon Americans will have to go to .... *deleted*.... to learn anything.
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