Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

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Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby zetreque on January 26th, 2017, 2:16 pm 

US-Mexico Border Fence May Harm Animal Migration
http://www.banderasnews.com/0609/eden-animalmigration.htm

Environmentalists and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wardens say the barrier would disrupt the migration of scores of species from jaguars to hawks and humming birds along a wildlife corridor linking northern Mexico and the U.S. southwest known as the "Sky Islands."

The chain of 40 mountain ranges links the northern range of tropical species such as the jaguar and the parrot in the Mexican Sierra Madre Mountains, and the southern limit of temperate animals such as the black bear and the Mexican wolf in the U.S. Rocky Mountains.

"Bisecting the area with an impermeable barrier such as a double reinforced wall or fence could really have a devastating effect on these species," said Matt Skroch, a wildlife biologist and executive director of the environmental non-profit group Sky Island Alliance in Tucson, Arizona.

"If they build it, we could really say goodbye to the future of jaguars in the United States," he added.



"The fence would have a negative effect on everything from the insects that would now be flying around the lights instead of pollinating the cactuses, to the birds that eat them, right up to the large predators like the jaguars," said William Radke, the manager of the San Bernardino National Wildlife Refuge, east of Douglas, Arizona.

Radke said the fence would prevent snakes and turtles, as well as wild turkeys and road runners from crossing. In addition, the bright lights at the top of the tall fence would interfere with birds' ability to navigate by the stars.

"A lot of migratory birds actually migrate at night, using stellar navigation and the moon to navigate. Suddenly lighting them up may disrupt a bird's ability to feed and rest and it may impact its survivability later on," he added.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby zetreque on January 26th, 2017, 2:22 pm 

Possible future videos read: "another 3 million die being caught in Trump's wall leaving 3 out of 10 million Monarch butterflies left.

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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby SciameriKen on January 26th, 2017, 2:24 pm 

zetreque » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:22 pm wrote:Future videos: "another 3 million die being caught in Trump's wall leaving 3 out of 10 million Monarch butterflies left.




I think a more effective argument would be to tell trump that "cool people don't build walls"
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Forest_Dump on January 26th, 2017, 3:13 pm 

Yeah I don't think those kinds of arguments are going to sway many and definitely none of the Trump supporters, many of whom may even see this as a plus. Would it be better to refer to it as Trump's Iron Curtain or Maginot Line? Point out the cost? Point out haw many tunnels, etc., will be built under it?

I also don't think the Trump chumps would be much swayed by pointing out that Mexicans were crossing that border to exploit economic opportunites back when Trump's ancestors (and almost everyone else's here) were squatting in hide covered huts on the far side of the globe cracking rocks together to butcher carrion. And frankly, long before that white elephant is built there will be just as many crossing by other means including still coming to keep the cost of fruit picking, domestic help and sweatshop labour from causing inflation.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby zetreque on January 26th, 2017, 3:45 pm 

Humans are dumber than rocks to not understand this! That's all I'm going to say. Period.
I've had it. I'm calling my representatives on the phone every single day now as everyone should to explain to them how small minded Trumps actions are.

And anyone who disregards this as part of the argument needs to wake up.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2017, 7:37 pm 

Don't try to explain things to your representative. Just keep saying - through any media by which you can reach them: "You're killing the country; you're killing world."
Maybe some of them care.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Braininvat on January 26th, 2017, 7:57 pm 

What's puzzling is that people who actually track border activity have been reporting for years that most illegal crossings are done by concealment in trucks, or tunnels, or people entering with temp permits and letting them lapse and staying here. Plus the wall can't cover various geographic features like rivers, rugged passes, etc. Plus ropes and ladders have been available for several millennia. Seems like enforcing hiring laws would be more effective.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 26th, 2017, 8:26 pm 

What needs to stop is the racism, nepotism, war lords, graft and other corruption in Mexico. The U.S. acting as a safety values for the failing cultures South of the border is not a solution for the people forced to flee.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby toucana on January 26th, 2017, 8:57 pm 

If you haven't already seen it, then you might enjoy watching the 2004 film "A Day Without A Mexican" directed by Sergio Arau. Here is a short YT trailer for it:



I showed this film while projecting at a Latin American film festival here in 2006 and found it rather amusing. The basic premise of the plot is that all the Mexicans who normally work in California suddenly vanish after a mysterious pink fog descends upon the border. The film is a satirical mocku-mentary that traces the economic chaos and public disorder that ensues as Californians discover that there is now no-one to carry out all the menial domestic chores and agricultural labouring that the Mexicans used to do.

The film won numerous awards at the Cartagena, Gramado, and Guadalajara film festivals in 2004, but for some reason it wasn't quite so well received in the USA ;-)
Last edited by toucana on January 26th, 2017, 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 26th, 2017, 9:01 pm 

What needs to stop is the racism, nepotism, war lords, graft and other corruption in Mexico. The U.S. acting as a safety values for the failing cultures South of the border is not a solution for the people forced to flee.


Why is Mexico failing? Why are any South American nations in so much economic trouble?
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby BadgerJelly on January 27th, 2017, 4:25 am 

Damage control until next election. Going to be impossible to get him out before then.

He started lying the first day and will continue to lie. The threat I heard about "safe cities" I hope to be a complete media fabrication. If not. If he said that. YOU ARE SCREWED GUYS!

SORRY
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 27th, 2017, 4:53 am 

Serpent » Fri Jan 27, 2017 1:01 am wrote:
What needs to stop is the racism, nepotism, war lords, graft and other corruption in Mexico. The U.S. acting as a safety values for the failing cultures South of the border is not a solution for the people forced to flee.


Why is Mexico failing? Why are any South American nations in so much economic trouble?


Why was Spain in so much trouble until recent decades? You can't reduce it to a single factor but if you look at the French and Spanish colonies and compare them to British colonies I think you get some possible explanations. There is something about the ideas of Hobbes and other British intellectuals that the continent can't seem to reproduce and I think it is the difference between a collectivist and individualist mentality. Individual rights are one of the secret to the success of Western Civilization. If you consider that the British almost single handedly ended the slave trade by patrolling the coast of Africa you get the inkling of something fundamentally different between Britain and the Continent.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby toucana on January 27th, 2017, 7:03 am 

BadgerJelly wrote on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:25 am

Damage control until next election. Going to be impossible to get him out before then".

There are several ways in which a US president can be legally removed from office:

Impeachment
Article II Section 4 of the constitution states that the president can be removed from office after impeachment and conviction for such offences as Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanours. The House of Representatives has the sole power of commencing an impeachment process, and the Senate has the sole power of trying the case and delivering a verdict. It only requires a single member of the House of Representatives to present a list of charges under oath in the House to initiate an impeachment.

Incapacity
Section 4 of the 25th Amendment passed in 1967 to clarify the rules of presidential sucession states
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

In other words, if a serving president is deemed to be insane or mentally incapable of discharging the duties of office then they may be deposed and replaced by the VP. This amendment has been briefly invoked on several occasions when the POTUS was placed under anaesthetic for surgical procedures, and it was also reportedly under consideration in the final months of Ronald Regan’s last term when it became clear he was suffering from a cognitive defect that turned out to be the onset of Alzheimer’s disease.

http://www.salon.com/2017/01/25/dont-look-now-its-president-pence-donald-trump-can-be-deposed-even-without-impeachment/

Veteran US journalist Carl Bernstein said on Wednesday evening in a CNN interview that there was open discussion between senior Republicans about Donald Trump’s mental fitness to rule after he continued to repeat unfounded claims that between three and five million illegal votes were cast in the 2016 election. There is no evidence to support such allegations, and they have been met with dismay by senior Republicans.

Bernstein said discussions going on in Washington this week were “unlike anything I have seen in 50 years as a reporter”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-carl-bernstein-republicans-emotional-voter-fraud-inauguration-count-a7547301.html
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Braininvat on January 27th, 2017, 10:41 am 

Underwhelmed as I am by DT, I have to say that this:

Veteran US journalist Carl Bernstein said on Wednesday evening in a CNN interview that there was open discussion between senior Republicans about Donald Trump’s mental fitness to rule after he continued to repeat unfounded claims that between three and five million illegal votes were cast in the 2016 election. There is no evidence to support such allegations, and they have been met with dismay by senior Republicans.


...seems a tad hysterical. If outrageous claims like that were really seen in our society as evidence of mental illness, we would have vacated huge numbers of government posts long ago. And just this morning, I read that Trump has made friends with Elon Musk, put him on some advisory panel, and listening to his ideas about electric vehicles and solar power. Don't know if that's a ray of hope or not, but it shows that DT is not completely nuts.

His emotional reactions to criticism, however, need to be watched, as I think the potential for "off the rails" is definitely there.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!

Postby ronjanec on January 27th, 2017, 11:18 am 

...seems a tad hysterical? I was thinking almost the same when I saw this yesterday, but I was thinking more along the lines of just plain hysterical, along with the talk of possible impeachment that I saw yesterday :)
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 27th, 2017, 11:40 am 

wolfhnd » January 27th, 2017, 3:53 am wrote:Why was Spain in so much trouble until recent decades?

No, I asked about Mexico, now.
... Individual rights are one of the secret to the success of Western Civilization. If you consider that the British almost single handedly ended the slave trade by patrolling the coast of Africa you get the inkling of something fundamentally different between Britain and the Continent.

So.... Individualist Britain stopped the slave trade, while super-individualist USA continued to have a slave economy for another century.
And collectivist mentality in Mexico produces "racism, nepotism, war lords, graft and other corruption".
And none of this has ever been affected by US foreign or economic policy.
Ho-kay then.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 27th, 2017, 11:11 pm 

Serpent » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:40 pm wrote:
wolfhnd » January 27th, 2017, 3:53 am wrote:Why was Spain in so much trouble until recent decades?

No, I asked about Mexico, now.
... Individual rights are one of the secret to the success of Western Civilization. If you consider that the British almost single handedly ended the slave trade by patrolling the coast of Africa you get the inkling of something fundamentally different between Britain and the Continent.

So.... Individualist Britain stopped the slave trade, while super-individualist USA continued to have a slave economy for another century.
And collectivist mentality in Mexico produces "racism, nepotism, war lords, graft and other corruption".
And none of this has ever been affected by US foreign or economic policy.
Ho-kay then.


There were two societies in the U.S. one resembled the continent's system of serfdom the other the British trading culture. That does mean that there are no overlaps but just a different atmosphere. The old South was in many ways an imitation of the land owning aristocracy of Europe.

If you look at those places most effected by U.S. foreign policy they would have to be Germany and Japan which are both highly functional capitalist democracies.

Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. It is as hard to explain the loyalty of poor southerners to the 5 percent of the population that owned slaves as is the loyalty of Mexicans to their abusive culture. To some extent it reflects a kind of Stockholm syndrome like what we see in Muslim woman. The element of collectivism this cultures express is related to the difference between a culture of rights and a culture of obligations. This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

The lack of critic by the left in the West of other cultures that abuse their citizens is highly immoral. It cannot be justified by saying we are addressing our own problems first nor does the primary responsibility for addressing those problems fall on the West.

And yes Norm Chomsky is an idiot.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Forest_Dump on January 27th, 2017, 11:46 pm 

wolfhnd wrote:If you look at those places most effected by U.S. foreign policy they would have to be Germany and Japan which are both highly functional capitalist democracies.

Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. It is as hard to explain the loyalty of poor southerners to the 5 percent of the population that owned slaves as is the loyalty of Mexicans to their abusive culture. To some extent it reflects a kind of Stockholm syndrome like what we see in Muslim woman. The element of collectivism this cultures express is related to the difference between a culture of rights and a culture of obligations. This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

The lack of critic by the left in the West of other cultures that abuse their citizens is highly immoral. It cannot be justified by saying we are addressing our own problems first nor does the primary responsibility for addressing those problems fall on the West.


And yet, if you talk to people from some of these countries, they have entirely different perspectives. You judge them as having Stolkhom syndrome but do you never wonder if you do? They will cite decades, if not centuries of interference from the US and the west in general in order to get cheap resources and labour although you may well call all of that alternative facts. I guess I can consider myself fortunate in that I have been able to talk to holocaust survivors and literal Nazi's who were also deniers, students from China, Viet Nam and Israel, refugees from Iran and Iraq and more. Some are more open-minded than others. I honestly don't know at times whether we are getting ahead as a species or not but at the moment I have a lot of doubt but maybe a little downturn in the west is unavoidable. Perhaps even a full collapse, long predicted, but I hope not.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 27th, 2017, 11:52 pm 

wolfhnd » January 27th, 2017, 10:11 pm wrote:[
Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. .... This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

Monarchy, theocracy, feudalism, Marxism..... Basically, whatever you dislike is "collectivist" and that causes all its problems - when it has problems - but [presumably] doesn't account for the durability and stability of some social structures, such as 'old China', nor does wholesome individualism and commercialism account for the destructive internal upheavals and outward aggression of societies such as Imperial Japan and Britain.
I see.

And yes Norm Chomsky is an idiot.

In the context, that should go without saying.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 28th, 2017, 12:26 am 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:46 am wrote:
wolfhnd wrote:If you look at those places most effected by U.S. foreign policy they would have to be Germany and Japan which are both highly functional capitalist democracies.

Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. It is as hard to explain the loyalty of poor southerners to the 5 percent of the population that owned slaves as is the loyalty of Mexicans to their abusive culture. To some extent it reflects a kind of Stockholm syndrome like what we see in Muslim woman. The element of collectivism this cultures express is related to the difference between a culture of rights and a culture of obligations. This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

The lack of critic by the left in the West of other cultures that abuse their citizens is highly immoral. It cannot be justified by saying we are addressing our own problems first nor does the primary responsibility for addressing those problems fall on the West.


And yet, if you talk to people from some of these countries, they have entirely different perspectives. You judge them as having Stolkhom syndrome but do you never wonder if you do? They will cite decades, if not centuries of interference from the US and the west in general in order to get cheap resources and labour although you may well call all of that alternative facts. I guess I can consider myself fortunate in that I have been able to talk to holocaust survivors and literal Nazi's who were also deniers, students from China, Viet Nam and Israel, refugees from Iran and Iraq and more. Some are more open-minded than others. I honestly don't know at times whether we are getting ahead as a species or not but at the moment I have a lot of doubt but maybe a little downturn in the west is unavoidable. Perhaps even a full collapse, long predicted, but I hope not.


The U.S. is now in the same situation that Britian was in before WWII as it's hegemony declines the world becomes more precarious.

I would prefer to live in Switzerland than the U.S. where everyone owns a gun and no one needs to use it. Unfortunately by accident of birth I have inherited a responsibility to be the target of thousands of nuclear weapons. The world is a place where MAD has always been the nature of cultural interaction.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Forest_Dump on January 28th, 2017, 12:52 am 

wolfhnd wrote:Unfortunately by accident of birth I have inherited a responsibility to be the target of thousands of nuclear weapons. The world is a place where MAD has always been the nature of cultural interaction.


That, at least, is one thing I see no danger of at the moment unless it be from some terrorist group. If Putin wants to expand, Trump will not oppose him. China never really had any aspirations that way. Most Muslim extremists are really most interested in their own spheres with attacks on the US mostly aimed at getting the US out of Asia, Africa, etc. North Korea is held in check by China and would mostly threaten South Korea or Japan. So, yes, the US is like Britain or the US prior to WW2 and my bet is that it will get more so with a severe economic downturn started by inflation once the trade war begins - which is looming now.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 28th, 2017, 1:17 am 

Serpent » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:52 am wrote:
wolfhnd » January 27th, 2017, 10:11 pm wrote:[
Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. .... This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

Monarchy, theocracy, feudalism, Marxism..... Basically, whatever you dislike is "collectivist" and that causes all its problems - when it has problems - but [presumably] doesn't account for the durability and stability of some social structures, such as 'old China', nor does wholesome individualism and commercialism account for the destructive internal upheavals and outward aggression of societies such as Imperial Japan and Britain.
I see.

And yes Norm Chomsky is an idiot.

In the context, that should go without saying.


Humans are tribal animals but in large complex social structures they are unavoidable reduced to disassociated individuals. We cannot live by our instincts.

http://m.pnas.org/content/110/Supplement_2/10408.full

When I say collectivist social structures I mean those societies where rights are distributed by virtue of your position in society such as would be characterized by being a member of the communist party in the Soviet Union or more evidently by being a member of the Supreme Soviet. In Mexico your position in society is counter intuitively still linked to the traditional idea of aristocracy. Despite the numerous revolutions, land reforms, and rise of new political parties Mexico remains a highly stratified society. As different groups ascend to power they have taken on the trappings of the traditional aristocracy. More importantly the lower classes still retain the attitudes of serfdom. I would not say that these assertions are not gross oversimplification only that they characterize the "spiritual" atmosphere that defines the relationship of the individual to the rest of society.

It should be noted that the same highly stratified social structure linked to religion existed prior to Spanish enslavement of the native population. There is nothing unusual or necessarily dysfunctional in this. As pointed out earlier there are many examples of highly successful societies with little concept of individual rights. I mentioned Islamic and Chinese cultures as two examples. On the other hand there is little doubt that this success has come with a degree of stagnation.

I'm not inclined to write a book so I will leave this where it is. I'm sure that I have made errors and obvious over simplifications but it was a conversation worth having.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 28th, 2017, 1:18 am 

Serpent » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:52 am wrote:
wolfhnd » January 27th, 2017, 10:11 pm wrote:[
Mexico in many ways remains a Spanish aristocracy. It suffers from many of the same problems as the old South culturally. .... This especially true where a religion or quasi religion such as Islam or Marxism dominate the culture and prop up and aristocracy or an elite bureaucratic class for example old China.

Monarchy, theocracy, feudalism, Marxism..... Basically, whatever you dislike is "collectivist" and that causes all its problems - when it has problems - but [presumably] doesn't account for the durability and stability of some social structures, such as 'old China', nor does wholesome individualism and commercialism account for the destructive internal upheavals and outward aggression of societies such as Imperial Japan and Britain.
I see.

And yes Norm Chomsky is an idiot.

In the context, that should go without saying.


Humans are tribal animals but in large complex social structures they are unavoidable reduced to disassociated individuals. We cannot live by our instincts.

http://m.pnas.org/content/110/Supplement_2/10408.full

When I say collectivist social structures I mean those societies where rights are distributed by virtue of your position in society such as would be characterized by being a member of the communist party in the Soviet Union or more evidently by being a member of the Supreme Soviet. In Mexico your position in society is counter intuitively still linked to the traditional idea of aristocracy. Despite the numerous revolutions, land reforms, and rise of new political parties Mexico remains a highly stratified society. As different groups ascend to power they have taken on the trappings of the traditional aristocracy. More importantly the lower classes still retain the attitudes of serfdom. I would not say that these assertions are not gross oversimplification only that they characterize the "spiritual" atmosphere that defines the relationship of the individual to the rest of society.

It should be noted that the same highly stratified social structure linked to religion existed prior to Spanish enslavement of the native population. There is nothing unusual or necessarily dysfunctional in this. As pointed out earlier there are many examples of highly successful societies with little concept of individual rights. I mentioned Islamic and Chinese cultures as two examples. On the other hand there is little doubt that this success has come with a degree of stagnation.

I'm not inclined to write a book so I will leave this where it is. I'm sure that I have made errors and obvious over simplifications but it was a conversation worth having.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 28th, 2017, 1:41 am 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:52 am wrote:
wolfhnd wrote:Unfortunately by accident of birth I have inherited a responsibility to be the target of thousands of nuclear weapons. The world is a place where MAD has always been the nature of cultural interaction.


That, at least, is one thing I see no danger of at the moment unless it be from some terrorist group. If Putin wants to expand, Trump will not oppose him. China never really had any aspirations that way. Most Muslim extremists are really most interested in their own spheres with attacks on the US mostly aimed at getting the US out of Asia, Africa, etc. North Korea is held in check by China and would mostly threaten South Korea or Japan. So, yes, the US is like Britain or the US prior to WW2 and my bet is that it will get more so with a severe economic downturn started by inflation once the trade war begins - which is looming now.


I'm not inclined to argue but will make some observations.

Yes the U.S. will continue to have economic problems but it is propped up by the Globalist. What many people do not understand is that the war in Iraq was never about oil per se but about the petro dollar or in modern terms monetary exchange conventions. The same is true for why Clinton destroyed Libya. The threat was not WMDs but the trade in oil in currencies other than dollars.

If you look at projections by the international banking community the U.S. is expected to leap ahead of China in the coming decades. China is going to be punished I guess for not playing by the rules of the bankers. Trump is not going to play by the establishment rules either and that could be bad for the U.S. I however see it as necessary to remind the rich and powerful that they are all crazy. The system they have establish will collapse regardless of the power they hold. Idiocy like importing Muslims to counter the declining reproductive rates in Europe is just one example of how desperate they are to maintain the "new world order" which honestly looks more and more like disorder.

Honestly I feel like putting on my tin hat when I talk about this stuff. It isn't a conspiracy however it is just the way people normally behave. There is no world wide jewish conspiracy, illuminati or any of the other bizarre ideas people fall into, there is just human nature and how wealth is distributed. In every communist country I'm aware of the same redistribution of wealth to the powerful has taken place so it isn't even an aspect of any particular economic system.

Trying to control societies is like trying to alter the climate, nobody knows how to even interpret complex chaotic systems. It's the arrogance of the people that are in power as much as anything else that scares me. They actually destroyed evil Clinton's chance to be elected by the absurd prediction that she had it locked up. If they were competent at their manipulations they would not be as dangerous. The question is if the ordinary person is as evil as the manipulators. I would certainly say that groups like BLM and it's counter part the tea party are no better than the banksters they want to replace. What is needed is a spiritual awakening and some way to analyze complex chaotic systems but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Forest_Dump on January 28th, 2017, 7:48 am 

Wolfhnd even if I granted everything you wrote about some secret Kabal of international bankers and the role of US dollars, etc., and granted you have caught onto some hidden thread of truth, absolutely nothing Trump has said or done indicates to me that he would do anything other than try to get at least one of his kids a seat at that table. I don't believe there is a shred of interest towards any sector of any public in him. At best I see nothing but a rabid desire to fulfill some dream of his own glory and legacy. Beyond that he is having his strings pulled by the Republican establishment which is beyond his control.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby wolfhnd on January 28th, 2017, 9:22 am 

Forest_Dump » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:48 am wrote:Wolfhnd even if I granted everything you wrote about some secret Kabal of international bankers and the role of US dollars, etc., and granted you have caught onto some hidden thread of truth, absolutely nothing Trump has said or done indicates to me that he would do anything other than try to get at least one of his kids a seat at that table. I don't believe there is a shred of interest towards any sector of any public in him. At best I see nothing but a rabid desire to fulfill some dream of his own glory and legacy. Beyond that he is having his strings pulled by the Republican establishment which is beyond his control.


I wasn't suggesting a hidden kabal and went to some trouble to point out that there is nothing obviously unseemly about the cooperation of the rich and powerful. Most of what I said is widely known and accepted by those who take an interest in such things.

It is also not obvious that that the international banking community would not be justified in punishing China and favoring the U.S. What is frightening as I said is their apparent confidence in the face of evident incompetence. What we have is global elites that believe they can control events that they cannot. The fact that they always seem to profit from chaos has more to do with the nature of markets than conspiracy.

That does not mean that there is any reason to admire the banksters. They have the ethics of alley cats but to some extent that is not something they do not share especially with the poor but perhaps the majority of the population including social justice warriors.

What is frightening about Trump is he may think that he can beat the globalist at their own game. It is a dangerous game because when threatened these people pack up the toys and go home leaving the entire system in chaos.

Even though I think Clinton is evil I could of voted for her if she wasn't one of the most evidently incompetent globalist. I voted for Trump largely because the establishment needed a stimulus to get their act together. I don't like the way the world is but I believe history shows that a degree of corruption is preferably to chaos.

I may be on the wrong side of history and probably would have been opposed to the American revolution against Britain for fear of chaos. I certainly don't think however that the revolution turned out badly but it could have. If you think of the British crown as the current global elites then his greatest crime was similarly to them incompetence. By voting for Trump I'm going against my nature and taking a chance that shaking the establishment will not break it.

Reducing the discussion to a question of character is making the mistake that we have the luxury to do so. This common mistake I attribute to the tribal instincts of humans. As I stated earlier large complex societies cannot operate under the rules that work well in a tribal environment.

I will offer only one example of how tribal instincts are dysfunction in dealing with complex societies although their are many. The natural instinct to help the poor results in a welfare state. The welfare state reduces the incentive for females to form healthy relationships. Unhealthy relationships destroy the lives of millions of young males who would normally be under the control of responsible adult males. Almost ever gang banger was raised by a single mother. The argument that poverty was the cause is easily dismissed because the same people lived in even greater poverty before the welfare state but in many ways were more civilized.

Complex problems require complex solutions not the kind of answers that come from empathetic reasoning and intuition.

The priority is to prevent the kind of chaos produced by incompetent globalist like Clinton who meddle in places like Libya. She is essential indistinguishable from Bush in this regard. Trump promises to put a break on the meddling and distribute responsibility in a way consistent with the inevitable decline of U.S. hegemony.

We are past propping up a house who's foundation is rotten. The price to be paid is for countries like Australia, Canada, Germany, France, Japan, South Korea to not only assume the financial burden of maintaining stability but accept becoming primary targets of nuclear weapons. The period of Pax Americano is coming to and end and so is the system that propped up socialism in every Western country besides the U.S.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Braininvat on January 28th, 2017, 11:16 am 

Seems like Europeans like their socialism and enjoy a better quality of life than we do. You should watch "Where to Invade Next," Michael Moore's very amusing documentary tour of various Euro countries that have found solutions to various social problems that greatly afflict us here in the U.S. I notice (from previous reading, but also touched on in the film) that many of these countries with much lower rates of family breakup and at-risk youth, have socialist policies that give parents much more time off from work to be with their children and each other. This IMO has a very healthful effect on family integrity and the ability to nurture the next generation. It's a solution to Daniel Moynihan's "cycle of poverty."

I notice you have a large-scale ideological view of things that seems to me only part of the picture of how to make life better. Many cultures we can learn from are ones where people, your neighbors and friends, are seen as being as important as yourself and your family, and there's a general sense that people, and the custom of looking out for each other comes before ideology and profit. Where profit is not the ultimate societal good, there is an awareness that we only live once and that this life is to be enjoyed.

I don't know if you will bother, but I think Moore's film will give you much food for thought. It is less polemic, and takes itself less seriously, than his other films.
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 28th, 2017, 12:29 pm 

Pssst! Shall Tell the President?
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby BadgerJelly on January 28th, 2017, 2:34 pm 

Sorry, people are talking some stupid shit here.

Human nature is far, far from what you deem it to be. Humans have a great deal of empathy. Humans are optimistic creatures. Humans are naturay selfish nor are they greedy. Social structures have been built to maintain certain selfish attitudes simply because the few can effect the many.

Saying "it's just human nature" is the cowards way out. Racism, rape, murder and war? Merely human nature so let us just continue to wallow that kind of and shit and blame "nature"? Nah! Sorry, not for me. I aspire to be more than some product of society, I wish to shape and refine society into a humane thing I am not at odds with.

The individual is always smart. Certain social trends, I admit, do steer us away from independent thought.

Anyway I am drunk and actually speaking my mind uncensored for once. Nite.nite! Zzzzz
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Re: Trumps env disaster wall needs to stop!!!!

Postby Serpent on January 28th, 2017, 2:58 pm 

Hey, Badger! Very articulate and clear --- maybe you should drink more, though, standard disclaimer: far be it from me, etc.
I wonder if the statement you object to is 'Humans are tribal." I've had a lot of trouble with that one in the past: there are so many interpretations of what "tribalism" entails and how it manifests, and yet the single phrase is often enough to label the entire species and explain every kind of behaviour from one extreme to the other.

My most recent, gigantic problem is with Wolfhnd's :
I will offer only one example of how tribal instincts are dysfunction in dealing with complex societies although their are many. The natural instinct to help the poor results in a welfare state. The welfare state reduces the incentive for females to form healthy relationships. Unhealthy relationships destroy the lives of millions of young males who would normally be under the control of responsible adult males. Almost ever gang banger was raised by a single mother. The argument that poverty was the cause is easily dismissed because the same people lived in even greater poverty before the welfare state but in many ways were more civilized.

I don't even begin to decrypt this statement for underlying belief-sets, and i certainly couldn't respond to it. More a gob-smacked reaction than an intellectual one. So I have to leave it alone.
Might be worth examining in detail, but on a platform of its own.
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