Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 11:57 am 

BioWizard » January 29th, 2017, 2:45 pm wrote:So before people go out and find numbers, sides must first agree on what matters and what doesn't - if the purpose of said numbers is to make an actionable decision.

That's exactly what I did - Ronjanec and Trump argue that crime and terrorism matter. I agree. I argue that the statistics give us no reason to pin these things on Syrian immigrants. Actually, others had made the same argument in this thread before me, but without using the word "statistically", which doesn't change the fact that those arguments were of the same nature. So BiV can take your advice to heart. I'll take it for what it's worth.

BioWizard » January 29th, 2017, 2:45 pm wrote:everyone just finds whatever numbers suit their agenda.

Everyone? Not me - I'm rather persuaded by numbers. Or are you just speaking statistically? :)
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Braininvat on January 29th, 2017, 12:21 pm 

What I mean by "taking to heart" is that I agree that getting at core values, i.e. how other people should be treated, and how we implement our core values towards individuals, is what counts in discourse. Sometimes people fall into the trap of putting ideology above people, and don't realize they have done that until you point it out to them with examples of individual human lives that bear the harsh brunt of ideology. Those lives may be of refugees, prisoners, or just a citizen who is being followed around a store by security staff. The most compelling arguments are those that put you in the shoes of someone on the wrong end of an ideology, an economic policy, an overzealous law enforcer, or just someone hellbent on making you a "better person."

We don't need stats to see the absurdity of the latest executive order. It is enough to note the order lacks any logic. It uses Sept. 11 as a rationale, while exempting the countries of origin of all the hijackers who carried out that plot and also, perhaps not coincidentally, several countries where the Trump family does business. Either you get the absurdity or you are simply too brainwashed to notice what is deeply illogical.
Last edited by Braininvat on January 29th, 2017, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix typo
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 12:24 pm 

Well maybe other feel I'm going too easy on Ronjanec, but I'm going on the assumption that his core value is more like "crime = bad" than "Syrian = bad". I know I cannot pay the same compliment to everybody who voted Trump.

Braininvat » January 29th, 2017, 5:21 pm wrote:We don't need stats to see the absurdity of the latest executive order. It is enough to note the order lacks any logic. It uses Sept. 11 as a rationale, while exempting the countries of origin of all the hijackers who carried out that plot and also, perhaps not coincidentally, several countries where the Trump family does business.

We don't know whether it's coincidental, do we? Are there more of those countries than there would be by sheer chance? Perhaps we could look for things which help us identify whether there is in fact a cause-effect relationship there. In other words, statistical distributions and regression analyses, respectively, matter here. We can do them without using complex mathematical language or even mentioning the fact that what we are doing is statistics. But that doesn't change the fact it's silly to take arms at somebody dropping in the word "stastistically". The line between qualitive and quantitive argument is more blurred than either of my fellow admins seem to realise.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 12:41 pm 

I would have to agree that at least here on the forum, someone citing "statistics" does not seem to sway anyone's opinions one way or the other, because people on either side of the debate usually do not trust the source cited by the other participant.

After my conversation with Biv on Saturday, I was trying to find what Lomax would probably consider "reputable sources" in my conversation with him and decided that none would probably pass muster because they were not MSM. And on the other hand, I personally don't trust almost any MSM source for the many reasons that I have already mentioned.

Europe did not properly vet migrants coming from the Middle East and this has again caused them a lot of problems in the past two years. President Trump is correct that we should not make the same mistakes they did and temporarily restrict immigration from this area until they are again properly vetted(the MSM in their typical hysterical reporting seems to have again forgotten that this is only temporary.

Bio is also right that there is a considerable amount of religious bigory involved here with the Muslim migrants because many people here in the US do not want them coming over here in any large numbers in the first place, because the same people have absolutely no use for Islam: And I really doubt that any amount of convincing by anyone on the left will ever get the same people to change their minds about this.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 12:44 pm 

Alright, I take it back. You throw in the word "statistically" and people cannot follow a simple argument.

Ronjanec, in light of Japan's troubles, do you propose restricting immigration from China? Or do you distrust the Japan-China statistics as a fabrication of the Left?
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 12:51 pm 

Lomax » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:44 am wrote:Alright, I take it back. You throw in the word "statistically" and people cannot follow a simple argument.

Ronjanec, in light of Japan's troubles, do you propose restricting immigration from China? Or do you distrust the Japan-China statistics as a fabrication of the Left?


I never really thought about this Lomax, and I again don't trust any statistic from the left.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 12:54 pm 

Well get thinking! You never know where the next threat is coming from. Maybe that wall could extend all the way along the West coast too. You can't be too careful.

(The statistic doesn't come from the Left, by the way. That's not what I said.)
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Serpent on January 29th, 2017, 12:56 pm 

Braininvat » January 29th, 2017, 10:12 am wrote:Finns? As one who had Finnish neighbors/friends and relatives on my wife's side, I am hard put to imagine the fear and loathing factors there.

Their relaxed attitude to nudity? Too much respect for wimmin and reading? Collectivist mentality?
You can always find something to object to.
And if you can't ---
"...taking our jobs, moving into our neighbourhoods, competing with our businesses, flouting our traditions, breathing our air, thinking their lives matter...."
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 1:02 pm 

I think it must be that guy from Lapland who spends all of Christmas creeping into children's bedrooms. Enters countries without a visa. Steals mince pies. Drinks on the job. Wears woolly clothes even in Australia. Sweaty trespassing illegal immigrant grooms a billion children a year. Screams the Daily Mail.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 1:03 pm 

Lomax » Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:54 am wrote:Well get thinking! You never know where the next threat is coming from. Maybe that wall could extend all the way along the West coast too. You can't be too careful.

(The statistic doesn't come from the Left, by the way. That's not what I said.)


I am trying to think about and then respond to what Bio just said here, and you also want me to also get into a new discussion about immigration in Japan? My poor little brain can only handle so much at the same time Lomax!
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 1:05 pm 

Take your time. The point isn't about immigration in Japan, it's about immigration in the US. Where Syrians and Chinese, so far, pose the same threat.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby vivian maxine on January 29th, 2017, 1:13 pm 

Lomax » January 29th, 2017, 11:54 am wrote:Well get thinking! You never know where the next threat is coming from. Maybe that wall could extend all the way along the West coast too. You can't be too careful.

(The statistic doesn't come from the Left, by the way. That's not what I said.)


If he wants to bar Mexicans, it will have to extend to the coast. And that will stop all the CA tourists from vacationing in Baja California. And how about across the Gulf?

Isn't there more to this than just Mexico? Those imports do not all come from Mexico. A lot of women's clothing is now made in Guatamala. Pottery from Peru. Do we get oil from Venezuela? Last I heard they had joined up with Saudi Arabia's group as a form of protest. Even the immigrants. Many are not Mexican at all but passing through Mexico on their way to the states.

Just thinking.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Braininvat on January 29th, 2017, 1:34 pm 

President Trump is correct that we should not make the same mistakes they did and temporarily restrict immigration from this area until they are again properly vetted...


Ron, I am curious what you mean by "properly" vetted. The immigrants that were detained at airports yesterday had undergone a year-long process of vetting before their arrival. Maybe I'm taking crazy pills here, but that sounds like a fairly proper vetting process to me. And it seems to be working so far, given that ZERO Syrians who are in the U.S. have committed terrorist acts in the U.S. Meanwhile, Saudi citizens killed over 2700 Americans in a single day, and we are giving them the green light and, for all I know, free coupons to the nearest aviation academy.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 1:59 pm 

Biv,

I honestly do not know what exactly happened here yesterday, or if this was just some kind of mistaken 'knee jerk' reaction to the new legislation by the same immigration authorities?

The mainstream media is handling any possible mistakes made here by the same authorities in a very negative and downright hysterical fashion without giving this brand new immigration policy a chance to be properly implemented before they again go nuts with their criticism(and people still wonder why I have no use for the MSM)
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 2:21 pm 

ronjanec » January 29th, 2017, 6:59 pm wrote:The mainstream media is handling any possible mistakes made here by the same authorities in a very negative and downright hysterical fashion without giving this brand new immigration policy a chance to be properly implemented before they again go nuts with their criticism(and people still wonder why I have no use for the MSM)

It's unconstitutional, and unfair to innocent Syrians, regardless of whether it works. So some criticisms can be made with foresight. We don't need statistics to know that much.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 2:59 pm 

You may be right Lomax and maybe it is: But do you honestly believe that is why the news media is creating this hysteria, or because they actually care about those people and/or the Constitution? It's all partisan politics for the most part Lomax.

Many Christians have been ostracized and killed in the Middle East in recent years by others with the same religious beliefs, and the "very caring" MSM almost completely ignores their stories.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 3:07 pm 

By all means. The Left media are sensationalist just like the Right media, and Left voters love hysteria and outrage just like Right voters do. I think this is probably part of the human condition. But we here are smart enough to rise above it, and judge Trump's executive order for what it is, no for what other people think of it. It will still be unconstitutional, and negligent of deserving refugees, regardless of what blithering partisans across the spectrum choose to say. They can say the moon is made of cheese for all I care.

Incidentally you caught me as I was about to read this.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 3:12 pm 

Thanks for a very interesting article Lomax(but unfortunately I gotta go)
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Serpent on January 29th, 2017, 4:03 pm 

ronjanec » January 29th, 2017, 1:59 pm wrote:You may be right Lomax and maybe it is: But do you honestly believe that is why the news media is creating this hysteria,

Which hysteria?
This:
http://patch.com/illinois/chicago/demonstrators-protesting-ohare-over-trump-muslim-ban
this:
http://abc7chicago.com/place/chicago-ohare/
or this?
http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/chicago-ohare-international-airport-chicago-il-us/
Looks to me like they're just reporting what happened. Except the one that can't.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Braininvat on January 29th, 2017, 6:54 pm 

National Review is one of the few conservative sources I've found that seems to have calm, well-documented, thoughtful analysis from that perspective. I'm glad Lomax linked that article, which raised some legitimate points from the moderate Right. Amidst all the cacophony, there are reputable conservative journalists out there who deserve to be heard.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Lomax on January 29th, 2017, 8:09 pm 

I should just qualify the link - which was generally well argued - with notes on its flaws.

The graph seems to show that lowering the refugee ceiling forces down the actual rate of refuge, so comparing the new cap to the old *actual admission rates* is methodologically flawed. They also argue that Christians are under-prevalent among refugee rates because they constitute 10% of the Syrian population, but UNHCR data show that only 1.5% of Syrian refuge applicants are Christian. I should think it's rates among applicants for asylum, rather than among the Syrian domestic population, which matter. It's also intellectually dishonest of them to focus only on Syria out of the six countries - refugees from Iraq, for instance, have a much better chance of being granted asylum if they're Christian. There's an implication that Obama ignored the refugee crisis, based on the fact that the number of refugees admitted from Syria didn't begin to rise until 2015; but that is exactly the year the "refugee crisis" began.

Otherwise, I think, the article does well to offer perspective.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Forest_Dump on January 29th, 2017, 10:34 pm 

I have to admit that I haven't had the time (and frankly no longer have the inclination) to chase down the extent to which the alt-right media in the US has been getting some of their alternative facts from alt-right sources in Europe who I am sure are perfectly capable of manufacturing their own alternative facts to suit their own xenophobia and Islamophobia. However, from my own reading of the MSM, I have been under the impression that the Syrian and other refugees are primarily fleeing from both ISIS and anti-ISIS (i.e., the Syrian government with Russian support). The former is reported to only shoot, chop and burn while the latter likes to add big bombs and odd gases but both kill lots of Muslims. Now my own thoughts are that when people are fleeing war zones and genocides, particularly relatively poor and illiterate peoples, they sometimes don't have all their papers in order, may not know how to answer all the relevent questions, might have medical conditions, probably don't have a lot of ready cash and might even have some mental and/or emotional issues on top of everything else (PTSD a surprise to anyone?) Maybe it wasn't a product of my liberal Christian up-bringing (although frankly I DO think it was a part of learning Christian charity when I was much younger) from my parents and grandparents who had a better memory of hearing about various genocides (including the Holocaust but also earlier (such as my grandfather's WW1 exerience but also later during the Depression), but bottom line, I was taught that when people are that hard-pressed you help first and ask questions later. Trump seems quite willing to give a break to people from places like Saudi Arabia (who perhaps are more likely to be able to afford to stay in one of his hotels despite being more likely to kill Americans) than poor folk from Syria but frankly the refugees from a war zone get more sympathy from me. (And yes we do have some near here although I bet the -30 temps are a bit of a shock. And I don't know if moose meat is halal.)
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby mitchellmckain on January 30th, 2017, 3:05 am 

There goes my hope that Trump wasn't as bad as he looked. I really didn't think the guy could win the election, so when he did, I thought perhaps I misunderstood him. I guess not.

Looks to me like the USA has just announced to the world it has given up pretending to fight for liberty and human right and has decided to join those fighting against them. Once the heart and soul dies, the body must decline into decay.
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby toucana on January 30th, 2017, 6:29 am 

From an article by Anton Zurcher on the BBC website entitled 'Amateur Hour At the Whitehouse ?'
Mr Trump's Friday afternoon executive order reportedly was crafted without consulting legal aides and enacted over the objection of homeland security officials, who balked at including permanent US residents in the ban.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38791752

The article links to a fuller account by CNN of the escalating confusion within government circles on Friday after Trump signed the order.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politics/donald-trump-travel-ban/
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby toucana on February 3rd, 2017, 6:57 pm 

One of the more brilliant 'catches' provoked by President Trump's EO on travel restrictions was the former prime minister of Norway, Kjell Magne Bondevik who was travelling on a diplomatic passport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38860907

Mr Bondevik was detained for an hour because his passport indicated that he had visited Iran in 2014 (the passport also clearly indicated that he was a former prime minister of Norway).

During his 2014 Iran trip, he spoke against extremism at an international conference on behalf of human rights organisation The Oslo Centre, of which he is president.

If they haven't already done so, Norway will presumably now join Holland, Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, Belgium and Portugal in producing satirical 'tourist' videos that troll Trump's 'America First' rhetoric with 'Us Second Please " piss-takes.

http://mashable.com/2017/02/03/europe-spoof-video-donald-trump-trolling/#d.670zoS5iqH
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Re: Google Recall Staff After Trump Order

Postby Braininvat on February 3rd, 2017, 7:46 pm 

Just watched the Switzerland Second video. I don't want to say how closely I approached loss of bladder control. Very funny stuff.

I'm afraid the pattern of EOs that are rushed into a final draft and signed is going to continue and we will see some very poorly conceived and planned measures like this one.
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