Is this what we voted for?

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Is this what we voted for?

Postby vivian maxine on January 29th, 2017, 10:12 am 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/worl ... 39&ref=cta

One U. S. commando was killed and four were hurt in President Trump's first counter-terrorism offensive, an attack on Yemen.

I am sure there's more to this story but I've reached my limit of NYT stories I am allowed to read before 1 February. Maybe someone can fill us in with more details of how this happened?

P S Just received this from U S A Today. It does explain more. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... eakingnews
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on January 29th, 2017, 10:42 am 

I'm sure you didn't vote for this, or any of the other messes currently taking place.
The less that one-third who did vote for this administration had no specific agendas beyond a hatred of women and non-white peoples generally. These good christians sold their country for an IOU from a serial welcher. And they still don't seem to have begun to guess how much this little tantrum will ultimately cost them.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Forest_Dump on January 29th, 2017, 10:55 am 

Although I don't have any sympathy for Al Queda, etc., I am surprised by this as I would have thought the Trump isolationist stance would have reduced American military interventions over there instead of picking more fights which will prompt more retaliations.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby ronjanec on January 29th, 2017, 2:32 pm 

Serpent » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:42 am wrote:I'm sure you didn't vote for this, or any of the other messes currently taking place.
The less that one-third who did vote for this administration had no specific agendas beyond a hatred of women and non-white peoples generally. These good christians sold their country for an IOU from a serial welcher. And they still don't seem to have begun to guess how much this little tantrum will ultimately cost them.


All of us Trump voters actually voted for him because we hate women and non-whites generally? Your personal comments are going more "off the rails" every day Serpent.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on January 29th, 2017, 4:24 pm 

ronjanec » January 29th, 2017, 1:32 pm wrote:All of us Trump voters actually voted for him because we hate women and non-whites generally? Your personal comments are going more "off the rails" every day Serpent.


Sorry!
Correction, to read:
Of the less than one-third who did vote for Trump, half had no specific agenda, beyond a hatred of women and non-white peoples. The other half expected some advantage to themselves from a man with a record of breaking contracts and evading his debts.
They, including misogynists, racists, resentful unemployed hoping to get good-paying jobs, hawks fearful of retribution by those against whom they have trespassed and good christians seeking retribution against those who have thwarted them, and all who just simply want to tell other people how and where to live, do not yet know what this next really big, be-yooootiful bankruptcy will cost them.
There, back on the rails.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby someguy1 on January 29th, 2017, 7:18 pm 

Serpent » January 29th, 2017, 8:42 am wrote:I'm sure you didn't vote for this, or any of the other messes currently taking place.
The less that one-third who did vote for this administration had no specific agendas beyond a hatred of women


Or hatred of neocon warmongers who happen to be women. vivian maxine's point is that Trump campaigned against stupid Middle East wars yet seems to be gearing up for another one.

Serpent » January 29th, 2017, 8:42 am wrote:and non-white peoples generally.


Trump won because several million Obama voters from 2008 and 2012 did not vote for Hillary. Are you saying they voted for the black guy but didn't vote for Hillary because they hate black guys? What kind of logic is that?
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on January 29th, 2017, 8:26 pm 

I think the "hatred of women," in most Trump voters was really hatred of woman, singular. The Right blogosphere, social media and the more polemic news outlets cranked out a huge amount of anti-Hillary stuff that made her sound truly awful. Fake quotes, like this....

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/mar/23/hillary-clinton-quotes-Internet-complete/

...abounded. I'll admit even I was briefly shocked by her fake quote on the State being the primary raisers of children until I went and determined it was not actually in her book. The Right made her a piñata they could whack at, expressing all their anger at what they saw as the excesses and tyrannies of government.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby someguy1 on January 29th, 2017, 8:36 pm 

Braininvat » January 29th, 2017, 6:26 pm wrote:I think the "hatred of women," in most Trump voters was really hatred of woman, singular. The Right blogosphere, social media and the more polemic news outlets cranked out a huge amount of anti-Hillary stuff that made her sound truly awful. Fake quotes, like this....

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2016/mar/23/hillary-clinton-quotes-Internet-complete/

...abounded. I'll admit even I was briefly shocked by her fake quote on the State being the primary raisers of children until I went and determined it was not actually in her book. The Right made her a piñata they could whack at, expressing all their anger at what they saw as the excesses and tyrannies of government.


I've hated Hillary since Travelgate in 1993. And cookiegate in 1992. And I voted for Bubba twice. Rose law firm records, cattle futures, Hillarycare screwup, vote on Iraq war, Libya screwup, etc. Many many scandals.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on January 29th, 2017, 9:17 pm 

Braininvat » January 29th, 2017, 7:26 pm wrote:I think the "hatred of women," in most Trump voters was really hatred of woman, singular.

Are you sure?
There have been some nasty remarks about other prominent women on the world stage.
more importantly, the anti-choice agenda is gearing up and will get very mean and legal 'protections' for the unborn will be more punitive.
Also, expect a major backlash against what they call 'political correctness' - which is likely to manifest as job/wage discrimination, dismissal of sexual harassment and domestic violence cases, drastic cuts in welfare for single mothers, health insurance, clinics and programs primarily concerned with women's health and safety, plus a whole new population of female homeless with mental health issues.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby vivian maxine on January 30th, 2017, 7:28 am 

I am not sure it's that they hate women. Rather it's that they can't stand the thought of a woman ruling. Such people would have voted against any woman, no matter who, and then gone searching for reasons in order to hide their real reason. There is a glass ceiling in the presidential office, too.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on January 30th, 2017, 11:46 am 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/29/us/stephen-bannon-donald-trump-national-security-council.html

This is just insane. And George W. Bush's chief of staff agrees, among many others.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on January 30th, 2017, 11:55 am 

Are you sure?


No.

And, yes, there are certainly some evangelical Christians, from certain sects, who climbed on the Trump bandwagon and have their religious beliefs about the place of women in society. It's like the white supremacists who were happy to see Trump win - it's not a large fraction of Trump voters, and most Trumpistas, if you took them aside to talk about it, would probably disown that segment. The cognitive dissonance lies in the fact that Trump himself did not disown those groups and they are okay with that. What I take away from that is that they don't hate women, but they don't much care about women's rights. In some ways, indifference is more harmful than hatred.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on January 30th, 2017, 12:26 pm 

vivian maxine » January 30th, 2017, 6:28 am wrote:I am not sure it's that they hate women. Rather it's that they can't stand the thought of a woman ruling. .

That's the logical icing on a multi-layered cake. Before your second sentence can make sense, there must be a history of attitudes. Perhaps you haven't noticed the escalating on-line rhetoric, what the incoming administration considers really big issues facing its new Supreme court appointees, and the state-level legislations that have already been enacted. Now they're federally empowered.

Braininvat --- What I take away from that is that they don't hate women, but they don't much care about women's rights.

Then you haven't been listening to what they say anonymously. A bloc of voters, we can't know how large or small, chose Trump not in spite of those remarks. Gender and equality issues are about to take on a very different, much more biblical, hue.
Well, never mind. It's hard to come to terms with the long-fermenting, but never deeply submerged, resentments in your own culture. Many nations are rediscovering their dormant alter ego.


As for the foreign policy.... Of course it will be all over the place, chaotic and unpredictable.
This is government by whim.
It's a fledgling monarchy that won't survive to the dynasty its patriarch hopes for.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby wolfhnd on January 30th, 2017, 4:24 pm 

Remember the establishment media is fake news.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby toucana on January 30th, 2017, 6:00 pm 

If you are bored with and disinterested in MSM establishment news, then you might enjoy reading this unusually well sourced article by a private blogger

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.o84i0mt46

Apart from the Holocaust Memorial Day statement that managed to avoid making any mention of the Jews, and the inexplicable elevation of Steve Bannon to a seat on the NSC, there is a detailed account by Reuters of the mysterious sale in December of a 19% stake in Rosneft, the enormous Russian oil consortium.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-rosneft-privatisation-insight-idUSKBN1582OH

Why is this of interest ? - Well, anyone who managed to read their way through the infamous Buzzfeed intelligence dossier on Donald Trump's links to Russia, or at least who managed to get past the 'golden shower' bed-wetting bit, will know that one of the claimed deals on offer to Trump and his associates was a 'brokerage' payment of a 19% stake in Rosneft in exchange for an undertaking by the USA to lift existing economic sanctions on Russia.

The intelligence document alleges that discussions of that type were under way in September 2016. The fact that the Rosneft sale took place in December just after Trump won the US election is fascinating to say the least.

One other detail that may have passed people by. On Boxing Day 2016, a man called Oleg Erovinkin was found dead in the back of his car in Moscow. He was a KGB General and a close friend of former deputy prime Minister Igor Sechin who features prominently in the Steele dossier. Oleg Erovinkin is believed to have been one of the key sources who gave information to former MI6 officer Chris Steele who is himself now in hiding.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4166610/Kremlin-covered-murder-former-KGB-chief.html
Last edited by toucana on January 30th, 2017, 6:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on January 30th, 2017, 6:09 pm 

NOTICE

All unsupported-by-evidence assertions that mainstream media reports (i.e. straight news story and not editorials, columns, or other Op-ed pieces) are erroneous or fraudulent will be deleted. Enough is enough. It's a cheap shot, because it gives the lazy ideologue a way to simply ignore any news they don't like and dismiss all opinions derived from news. All without offering a shred of proof for their contentions.

For example, did Trump, as reported by the NYT, WaPo, LA Times, Reuters, BBC, CNN, ABC, Guardian, et al., in fact appoint Steve Bannon to the NSC posting described today? Yes, of course he did. It's a straight news story of an actual event. So address the wisdom of the appointment, or lack of it, but don't waste peoples time with the vague dismissal that any news you don't like is "fake." Or, if you sincerely believe that the events did not happen, perhaps in the mode of "Capricorn One" where the Apollo 11 moon landing was staged on a tv set in Nevada or wherever, then PROVIDE DOCUMENTATION from a reputable news source, a gonzo journalist with audio/visual recordings that expose the fraud, or whatever you've got. If you've got nothing but your paranoid delusions, then STFU.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on January 30th, 2017, 7:12 pm 

Nevertheless, speculation, based on documented events plus observation of similar past events and their historically recorded outcomes, is of some value in prediction. And prediction is of some value in avoidance of standing directly under the fallout.
Thanks, toucana.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on February 2nd, 2017, 12:45 pm 

The mod note was in response to yet another vague "fake news" assertion up the thread, and not in any way related to Toucana's postings. I hope that was clear.


https://www.thenation.com/article/leaked-draft-of-trumps-religious-freedom-order-reveals-sweeping-plans-to-legalize-discrimination/

Apparently a draft of a new executive order from Trump was leaked, or perhaps "leaked." If they do plan to go with this one, it violates the Establishment clause of the 1st Amendment, so perhaps they need to run it past Legal.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Eclogite on February 6th, 2017, 5:00 pm 

Serpent » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:24 pm wrote:
ronjanec » January 29th, 2017, 1:32 pm wrote:All of us Trump voters actually voted for him because we hate women and non-whites generally? Your personal comments are going more "off the rails" every day Serpent.


Sorry!
Correction, to read:
Of the less than one-third who did vote for Trump, half had no specific agenda, beyond a hatred of women and non-white peoples. The other half expected some advantage to themselves from a man with a record of breaking contracts and evading his debts.
They, including misogynists, racists, resentful unemployed hoping to get good-paying jobs, hawks fearful of retribution by those against whom they have trespassed and good christians seeking retribution against those who have thwarted them, and all who just simply want to tell other people how and where to live, do not yet know what this next really big, be-yooootiful bankruptcy will cost them.
There, back on the rails.
I think you will find that broad ranging generalisations having the distinct appearance of being agenda driven will tend to be ignored by critically thinking individuals and - if repeated frequently - will lead to the author being ignored. Just a heads up that may be of some use to you if you pay attention to it.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on February 6th, 2017, 7:29 pm 

Point taken to heart.
On several recent occasions, I've caught myself caring.
It must be time for a hiatus.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Eclogite on February 7th, 2017, 1:20 am 

Serpent » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:29 pm wrote:Point taken to heart.
On several recent occasions, I've caught myself caring.
It must be time for a hiatus.
I believe it is important to distinguish between heartfelt passion and hysteria.

Hyperbolic rhetoric can work if you are seeking to be a populist leader, but it will discourage critical thinkers who may otherwise be sympathetic to the broad thrust of your argument. Ultimately it is divisive. If you seek division in society your approach will prove effective.

The foregoing are opinions. (I know you know that. I'm just letting you know I do too.)
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Serpent on February 7th, 2017, 2:28 am 

I believe it is important to distinguish between heartfelt passion and hysteria.

Quite so. Cassandra got that a lot.
The really big mistake is being sentimental enough to think it matters.
Anyway, thanks.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Forest_Dump on February 7th, 2017, 9:30 am 

You are not the only one with a Cassandra complex here - I would say it is pretty common. I know on occassion I get too caught up in the arguments and have to sit back a bit. But more often I am amazed and very very curious at how and why people adopt some of the stances they do and will deloberately push to see if I can see how and why they have their heels dug in as they do. All say they would change their positions if they heard a good argument or good data, etc., but I am not sure I have ever seen a case where that has happened. Minor points perhaps but not often and not on a major issue. I wonder what it would take.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby ronjanec on February 7th, 2017, 11:49 am 

I think we see are seeing a great deal more of "the Chicken Little complex" here on the forum, instead of the above mentioned "Cassandra complex", especially in the last few weeks. :)
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby ronjanec on February 7th, 2017, 12:17 pm 

I will admit to being very concerned about what is going on in our country right now: I believe the new Trump administration has been moving a bit too fast trying to implement his campaign promises, and I also believe that their collective political inexperience was partly the cause of this.

I also believe that there are many very powerful people here, and all over the world, who only want to see him and his administration fail, and will do everything in their power to accomplish this.

I am still behind him 100%, but I am again very concerned that the overwhelming opposition to him and his administration may be just too much for them to overcome. Hopefully, things will start to settle down a little in the near future, and he and his administration will be able to overcome and defeat the opposition.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Forest_Dump on February 7th, 2017, 12:32 pm 

ronjanec wrote:I am still behind him 100%, but I am again very concerned that the overwhelming opposition to him and his administration may be just too much for them to overcome. Hopefully, things will start to settle down a little in the near future, and he and his administration will be able to overcome and defeat the opposition.


I guess you discount the possibility that he might be wrong on some things.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby ronjanec on February 7th, 2017, 12:42 pm 

Nope. Just mentioned that I believe that they have moved a bit too fast trying to implement his campaign promises. How about you Forest? Any comments from you in the past that he might be right on some things?
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on February 7th, 2017, 12:54 pm 

ronjanec » February 7th, 2017, 9:17 am wrote:I will admit to being very concerned about what is going on in our country right now: I believe the new Trump administration has been moving a bit too fast trying to implement his campaign promises, and I also believe that their collective political inexperience was partly the cause of this.

I also believe that there are many very powerful people here, and all over the world, who only want to see him and his administration fail, and will do everything in their power to accomplish this.

I am still behind him 100%, but I am again very concerned that the overwhelming opposition to him and his administration may be just too much for them to overcome. Hopefully, things will start to settle down a little in the near future, and he and his administration will be able to overcome and defeat the opposition.


I still believe it's better to address specific policy issues than make vague assertions or "wave the foam finger for your team" kind of comments. BTW, "defeat the opposition" is a disturbing idea, since the President is supposed to serve all the people. When the opposition is running 60-70% of the electorate, I would think working with the opposition would be more productive and more in keeping with our nation's principles. But it's possible a predatory businessman can only see things in terms of winning and losing.
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Braininvat on February 7th, 2017, 12:56 pm 

ronjanec » February 7th, 2017, 9:42 am wrote:Nope. Just mentioned that I believe that they have moved a bit too fast trying to implement his campaign promises. How about you Forest? Any comments from you in the past that he might be right on some things?


Trump did say that he didn't get complete information he needed on the NSC and may have been misinformed in some of his decisions there. I agree with him totally!
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Re: Is this what we voted for?

Postby Forest_Dump on February 7th, 2017, 1:01 pm 

Certanly. I have long said that I am in agreement with pulling away from free trade because it robs the tax base, crushes competition, loses jobs, allows environmental degradation, etc. I am also in favour of "thickening" borders although it will lead to inflation. However, I am against targeting specific religious groups, particularly when based on fear mongering and "alternative facts" about who is responsible for the most acts of violence. And, of course, I am in favour of restricting immigrants not so much refugees (I suppose that is the result of my liberal Christian up-bringing). And I am against targeting First Nations people like Mexicans who have been crossing those borders for thousands of years and so, IMHO, have more right to be in the US than you or Trump.

As an aside, I had also noted Trump's thin pretence to be somewhat Christian. I don't think for a second he is anything of the sort (I just don't think he spends any more time than he has to thinking about it) and think he is just giving the appearance for political expediency. While on the one hand I think the term hypocrisy might apply, on the other hand I might do the same both because I think religious beliefs should be respected and because I don't think there is any real point or gain to be made for anyone by making religion a topic of political debate at this time. Americans seem to want to believe a Christian is at the helm and while I don't think it is really true at this time I think that is one dog that is better left sleeping at this time. So I agree with him in his pretending so long as he doesn't make religion an excuse for some of his actions.
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