Quebec Shooting

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Quebec Shooting

Postby Forest_Dump on January 30th, 2017, 7:34 pm 

For those who may not get Canadian news, we had our own mass murder apparently done by an Islamophobic right wing nationalist:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ ... -1.3958191
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby wolfhnd on January 30th, 2017, 10:32 pm 

I don't think it is irrational to be against a religion when one of it's principle dogmas is theocracy. I'm equal opposed to Jews who thing that we should accept the idea of a Jewish state.

The over use of the term Islamophobia does more harm than good. These kind of ideas come back to bite you as in Europeans coming to the Americas was just spreading cultural diversity. The best way to defend against right wing fanatics is to openly criticize anti liberal religions.

It is a hard pill to swallow for some but Islamists have more in common with right wing fascist than they do traditional liberals who are now voting republican. I recommend Sam Harris and Dave Rubin as reasonable liberal voices on this topic.

If it proves true that the push to allow mass immigration is little more than a ploy to compensate for declining European birth rates then I will blame liberal politicians for this atrocity.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby Forest_Dump on January 30th, 2017, 11:09 pm 

wolfhnd wrote:I don't think it is irrational to be against a religion when one of it's principle dogmas is theocracy. I'm equal opposed to Jews who thing that we should accept the idea of a Jewish state.


I don't think it is ever rational to go into any place and gun people down because of their religion, race, gender or politics.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby Lomax on January 30th, 2017, 11:21 pm 

Wolfhnd, I dislike the lumping in of religious critique with racism, too. But if there's ever an appropriate application of the term "phobia", surely it's to a person who murders several people for going about their daily - nonviolent - rituals. I hope that didn't sound like a question. It wasn't.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby wolfhnd on January 31st, 2017, 1:03 am 

The details are not in yet but I suspect that we will find that this is similiar to the Dylann Roof case. There are elements of bigotry but these types of people could just as well have shot everyone in their school. If we look at the worst domestic terrorist attack in the U.S. history we see the opposite of religious bigotry as Timothy McVeigh was at least in partially motivated by witnessing the Waco siege. I'm not saying the motivation is not unimportant but it is not clear exactly how you should react to those motivations. If the goal is to prevent these things from happening I don't see how you can focus on motivation in these cases when they are so diverse. On the other hand the motivation of Islamic Terrorist is fairly clear and with roughly 11 thousand people killed and 14 thousand injured last lear, not to count the hundred thousand or so killed in sectarian wars, the more serious issue is clear. It isn't however just about the numbers it is about the clarity of the connection between doctrine and violence. Dylann Roof and the others I mention have no clear doctrine or connection to any clearly defined group of people that you can investigate and argue against. The argument has nothing to do with saying white supremacist are not as bad as Muslim terrorist but with how likely it is that we can have some effect on people being indoctrinated into a belief system that is in opposition to liberal democracy.

The problem that we should first address is the reluctance people feel to critique bad ideas when they feel a connection to the people expressing them. That connection may be little more than common empathy, political ideals, ethnicity or any other identity. If you are afraid to critique an idea because of association with how oppressed you may feel the group holding those ideas may be that is undesirable. That doesn't mean we can just dismiss white supremacist views because they are such an amorphous and demographically small group. It only means that falsely labeling everyone who may have reservations about immigration as an Islamophobe is likely giving credibility to the true white supremacist.

Political correctness it seems to me has been very successful at suppressing the expression of bigotry but not nearly as successful at reducing bigotry. If we allow people to express their hate at least we know what people are thinking and can argue against their ideas without blood in the streets.

There is very little evidence that we about to recreate Nazi Germany by electing people opposed to immigration. On the other hand the way the left has abandoned the workers in favor of cultural Marxism is very likely to create the circumstances in which a Nazi Germany arose. The few people that are currently attracted to white supremacy are not going to be influenced by screaming Islamophobe, racist, misogynist, and will likely bare those titles with pride. So why do people do use these labels carelessly?

It is illogical to say that attacking the underlying ideology of Islamic terrorist will empower them and create more radicals and then say the way to attack white supremacy is to voraciously attack the people that hold these ideas with labels. The way to attack bad ideas is not with labels but by engaging with the people that hold those ideas and exposing how ridiculous they are.

I could go on but I think we have to consider exactly what the goals of the people involved are. I don't think the goals of the leaders are necessarily inline with the goals that ordinary people associate with a particular political identity. It becomes a question of priorities and manipulations. I don't think that is a conversation we can really have because of the complexities involved. Perhaps somewhat more importantly sometimes the facts are racist, Islamophobic, misogynistic within the current intellectual environment or if you are on the other side of the political spectrum the facts are unpatriotic, anti religious, communistic etc.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby Lomax on January 31st, 2017, 9:34 am 

Wolfhnd,

You're correct to say that he could have expended his bullets on anyone. As it happens, he went out of his way to expend them exclusively on practicing Muslims. Those who knew Bissonnette say he was strongly Nationalist and an outspoken supporter of Marine Le Pen. Let's not be naive or gullible about this. Calling the deliberate targeting of a Mosque for a murder spree "Islamophobia" is not "political correctness" or "cultural Marxism". It's not "careless" use of a label. It's not stifling the free expression of those who merely oppose immigration. Any attempt to change the subject in this way is not merely euphemistic; it's victim-blaming.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby wolfhnd on January 31st, 2017, 10:31 am 

Lomax » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:Wolfhnd,

You're correct to say that he could have expended his bullets on anyone. As it happens, he went out of his way to expend them exclusively on practicing Muslims. Those who knew Bissonnette say he was strongly Nationalist and an outspoken supporter of Marine Le Pen. Let's not be naive or gullible about this. Calling the deliberate targeting of a Mosque for a murder spree "Islamophobia" is not "political correctness" or "cultural Marxism". It's not "careless" use of a label. It's not stifling the free expression of those who merely oppose immigration. Any attempt to change the subject in this way is not merely euphemistic; it's victim-blaming.


I'm only suggesting that the rise of nationalism is a natural reaction to the unnatural excesses of the left. I'm not blaming the victims I'm blaming the culture that refuses to denounce identity politics.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby Braininvat on January 31st, 2017, 11:23 am 

I'm only suggesting that the rise of nationalism is a natural reaction to the unnatural excesses of the left. I'm not blaming the victims I'm blaming the culture that refuses to denounce identity politics.


I would say nationalism, as we are seeing it manifest now, is an irrational reaction based on the fear of people outside your white ethnic group. AKA "bigotry." I'm not even sure what people mean when they invoke the spectre of "identity politics." Isn't that just groups that face discrimination, standing up for their right to equality before the law and basic dignity in civil society? That's pretty much everyone except white male Anglo-Saxons, at one time or another, over the course of U.S. history. I guess some of my Irish ancestors, subjected to discrimination and brutality at the hands of law enforcement, when they joined together to fight oppression, were just practicing "excessive" identity politics? Maybe you need a boot applied to your face, for your entire life, to really understand that identity politics is not a pejorative term.
The Left is not to blame. Bigots are to blame.
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby SciameriKen on January 31st, 2017, 11:30 am 

wolfhnd » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:31 pm wrote:
Lomax » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:Wolfhnd,

You're correct to say that he could have expended his bullets on anyone. As it happens, he went out of his way to expend them exclusively on practicing Muslims. Those who knew Bissonnette say he was strongly Nationalist and an outspoken supporter of Marine Le Pen. Let's not be naive or gullible about this. Calling the deliberate targeting of a Mosque for a murder spree "Islamophobia" is not "political correctness" or "cultural Marxism". It's not "careless" use of a label. It's not stifling the free expression of those who merely oppose immigration. Any attempt to change the subject in this way is not merely euphemistic; it's victim-blaming.


I'm only suggesting that the rise of nationalism is a natural reaction to the unnatural excesses of the left. I'm not blaming the victims I'm blaming the culture that refuses to denounce identity politics.


The logic is confusing. If the "left" complains against bigotry it pushes it into the shadows which is worse, therefore we should allow bigotry to exist unchallenged? What are you proposing here?
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Re: Quebec Shooting

Postby Serpent on January 31st, 2017, 11:32 am 

And the excesses of the left are a natural reaction to the excesses of the right..

If you bomb their houses and endanger their children - whether because you're afraid of their religion, or want the oil under their farms, or have a rivalry with another superpower to play out, or prefer to prop up a friendly dictator in favour of an unfriendly one, or just need wider markets for the weapons industry, or for whatever compelling geopolitical reason - those people will have to go somewhere else. There are only so many other places to go; fewer, as more homelands are engulfed in warfare and more people are displaced.
Yes, leftly, softy government are more likely to let them in, while tough, practical righteous ones keep them in interment camps or sink their boats. And, yes, the declining white birth-rate is also due to lefty policies. If more and more people are allowed to control their own reproduction, next thing you know, the world population might go down to a sustainable number.
And then where would we be?
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