vitamin D religion called into question

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vitamin D religion called into question

Postby Braininvat on May 12th, 2017, 9:57 am 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/heal ... ments.html

NoShips has addressed the resemblance of some scientific theories to a religion. This may be a fair example of what he is referring to. Sounds like some very weak evidence was cherry-picked and then some correlations were elevated to the status of factual conclusions.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby Heavy_Water on May 12th, 2017, 2:05 pm 

Braininvat » May 12th, 2017, 8:57 am wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/health/vitamin-d-deficiency-supplements.html

NoShips has addressed the resemblance of some scientific theories to a religion. This may be a fair example of what he is referring to. Sounds like some very weak evidence was cherry-picked and then some correlations were elevated to the status of factual conclusions.



Science, when practiced by the Empircal Method, in the manner in which ii is supposed to be prcaticed, has not tenets at all which can be categorized as meeting the requirements of being a "religion."

Do unscrupulous and just lazy and self-serving men of science sometimes fail to follow the rules of the true scientific method? Sure. Do some scientists have personal agendas? Sure.

Just like any Institution, Science has its share of Corrupt Practices.

But, again, this in no way relegates it to being in any way synonymous with religion.

To find an article where it does, as you might have done, is in itself Cherry Picking.

Doubt me?

Name any Industry or Institution, one you may think is bereft of Corruption, and I will find you an instance of corrupt practice. Or even religious-type dynamics.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby Braininvat on May 12th, 2017, 2:13 pm 

Do unscrupulous and just lazy and self-serving men of science sometimes fail to follow the rules of the true scientific method? Sure. Do some scientists have personal agendas? Sure.


That was really what I was saying. You apparently heard something else. If you think I was attacking sound science and scrupulous methodology, you clearly have read few of my past postings. Not a problem, but the point was really that some scientists, and perhaps some overexcited science journalists, had gotten too dogmatic about the wonders of vitamin D.

I was really tossing a bone to NoShips who, if you've read any of his threads, has been pointing out areas of science where seemingly solid theories have revealed shaky foundations.

If you read carefully, you might have gleaned that I was making a point about the virtue of science, which is that the article bears witness to a faulty orthodox view being shot down by good skepticial inquiry and fresher evidence.

Hope this corrects any misunderstanding concerning the thread or the OP intent.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on May 12th, 2017, 4:55 pm 

I've read two books entirely about vitamin D that cited numerous studies and done my own research. That NYT article leaves much to be desired. Reading it has a similar feel to climate change skeptics.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on May 12th, 2017, 5:07 pm 

Interesting

Questionable. Looks like the journalist cherry picks studies that cherry pick studies.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Gina_Kolata
While describing her coverage of pure science as "terrific" and her reporting of mathematics similarly "with one exception", he found fault with her environmental reporting. In an interview Dowie described her reporting on broad environmental topics as being characterised by "a hard, pro-technology, pro-corporate line on products or issues that are very controversial: silicone breast implants, irradiated food, experimental AIDS drugs, and breast cancer. In fact, Gina took a strong position that breast cancer has no environmental etiology at all, and took every opportunity to make that point even as her sister, Judy, was struggling with breast cancer. Gina reviewed "Rachel’s Daughters," a film made on breast cancer, and strongly criticized the film’s inquiry of environmental causes." [12]

Dowie described that on investigating the sample of Kolata's stories and contacting her named sources he found that "there were many she had, in fact, interviewed at great length and had not included in the stories. I’m not saying she’s a dishonest person, but I am saying she has practiced dishonest journalism and wasted a great talent in those stories."


While the NYT's science editors had been provided with a statement by a senior environmental health researcher supporting the authors hypothesis and recommendation. "If she saw them, Kolata ignored them all. Instead she repeatedly misstated the authors’ conclusions in terms that echoed the twenty-two-page press advisory circulated by the Chemical Manufacturers Association." [16] Dowie notes that many scientists complained about Kolata's coverage but none were printed.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby Braininvat on May 12th, 2017, 7:21 pm 

zetreque » May 12th, 2017, 1:55 pm wrote:I've read two books entirely about vitamin D that cited numerous studies and done my own research. That NYT article leaves much to be desired. Reading it has a similar feel to climate change skeptics.


Well, I looked at some of her cites, like this...

http://www.nationalacademies.org/hmd/Reports/2010/Dietary-Reference-Intakes-for-Calcium-and-Vitamin-D.aspx

...and they seemed like useful digests of the current research. If she has overlooked things, and your other quoted material certainly raises that possibility, then I think it would be good to have some rival opinions from reputable sources. As long as there is healthy debate on the data and what it says or doesn't say, then this thread should serve some useful purpose. It's clear there is a point where vit. D intake can be excessive, so I would welcome any research that might pinpoint where the consumer needs to be cautious.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on May 12th, 2017, 7:48 pm 

It's been a while since I was investigating this but the only case of over-consumption I remember was one in which a doctor or was sued for mislabeling the dosage or something. It seemed incredibly hard to overdose on vitamin D. It sounded like someone would have to be taking 100,000 IU a day.

That NYT article isn't worth more than toilet paper to me. The only real way to get into anything is to really dig in the research for yourself which takes a lot of time.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby SciameriKen on May 12th, 2017, 8:32 pm 

Braininvat » Fri May 12, 2017 1:57 pm wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/health/vitamin-d-deficiency-supplements.html

NoShips has addressed the resemblance of some scientific theories to a religion. This may be a fair example of what he is referring to. Sounds like some very weak evidence was cherry-picked and then some correlations were elevated to the status of factual conclusions.


There has long been a battle between the institute of medicine and the vitamin D research community between drawing the line of true sufficiency at 20 ng/ml or 30 ng/ml, respectively. The IOM is basing their recommendation primarily on the necessary amount needed to maintain skeletal health and they find evidence for extra-skeletal benefits to be lacking. Large clinical studies have also not been supportive for the benefits of vitamin D - but the problem is there seems to be a lot of human genetic variability that will mislead investigators into thinking a person who is sufficient or insufficient when they are actually the opposite. The literature is very confusing when it comes to vitamin D.

For this reason we went for an animal model in our research since this would allow better control of lifestyle and genetic confounders - our research seems to indicate its the long term impacts we should be concerned with - insufficient for a month - no big deal - insufficient for a decade or two and you might have problems. Our research was looking at 10 ng/ml versus 30-40 ng/ml - so it really doesn't hit whether 20 ng/ml is sufficient or not.

Anyways, I think this article is going way overboard in their damning of vitamin D test and the craze that surrounds it -- but it does make a point - people have to be rational about this (don't slam more than 10K IU daily). Still - the test doesn't cost that much and could have huge cost and health saving benefits if you find a person who is deficient. I agree with Zet though - this article is way to negative
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on January 12th, 2018, 4:55 pm 

I have now confirmed through self experimentation that Vitamin D supplementation is linked to back pain.

I started supplementing this winter since I wasn't getting outside to get sunshine like I had been doing over the past few years. My back pain came back after 3 weeks. I had severe lower back pain in the past that developed years ago (side by side with a poor lifestyle and diet) before I even knew what vitamin D was. Then my pain went away when I started supplementing 4-5 years ago. For a variety of reasons I stopped supplementing and started sunbathing for 5-15 minutes most days, even in the winter (I set an alarm clock for it). I do such a short period of time due to the elevation and latitude I live at. I lowered my dosage and ultimately stopped supplements this week and my pain went away. I have done this experiment at least once in the past.

My own observations convince me that both too much vitamin D and too little vitamin D cause back pain in myself.

I may repeat this experiment yet again to confirm even more. It would be great to do it in a more controlled way and publish the results like SciameriKen

A quick google search reveals many opinions and studies between back pain and Vitamin D.
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/study-f ... back-pain/
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on January 12th, 2018, 5:09 pm 

I also have a strong suspicion in the type of Vitamin D taken. I was out of town for two weeks taking a certain brand capsule of vitamin D. I slowly increased my dosage over that time. Once I returned home and the back pain started to hit me hard I had switched back to a different brand that comes in drops.

I also think there is a difference between supplements and natural means which is why several years ago my research and self-experimentation led me to trying to obtain my Vitamin D through sun exposure rather than dietary supplements.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby Hendrick Laursen on January 12th, 2018, 6:27 pm 

zetreque » January 12th, 2018, 11:09 am wrote:I also have a strong suspicion in the type of Vitamin D taken. I was out of town for two weeks taking a certain brand capsule of vitamin D. I slowly increased my dosage over that time. Once I returned home and the back pain started to hit me hard I had switched back to a different brand that comes in drops.

I also think there is a difference between supplements and natural means which is why several years ago my research and self-experimentation led me to trying to obtain my Vitamin D through sun exposure rather than dietary supplements.


Really interesting experiences. Perhaps the key lies in the formulation as you have pointed out yourself, by which I mean, the special ingredients and extras used to make a drug look like a drug.

Some people indeed report idiosyncratic reactions to drugs, which might be attributable to different genetic makeups and predispositions, and environmental triggers, among many other (proposed) pathophysiologies.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby SciameriKen on January 13th, 2018, 1:04 am 

Always tough to tell with a single individual - but your story is none the less very interesting! With incidence of falls and with overall mortality there is a U-shaped curve relationship with vitamin D (the more not the merrier).

I think the issues you raised are all possibilities. First- the quality of the supplement should be considered. Some supplements are just fish oil or may not contain any vitamin D at all -- here is a decent website/video about that: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why ... y-facebook -- aside from all that there is a possibility that you have an allergy to a particular brand of vitamin D.

On the next level is whether you are over supplementing or not - how much vitamin D are you taking daily? Have you taken a vitamin D test at any point to verify your level?

Additionally, are you taking any other supplements? Vitamin K may help judging from Doogles post -- What about vitamin A?

Finally, there is the possibility that the back pain is somehow related to winter activities - you've done the cessation test twice now though, so there does seem to be something going on with that! Keep up on your lab book on this :D And also - glad to hear the back pain went away!
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on January 13th, 2018, 5:38 pm 

I had my levels tested about 5 years ago and could look it up but recall being about a 25 and increased to 30 something when I supplemented back then. Since I have not seen nor can afford to go to the doctor over the past 5 years I have not had my levels checked. It would be wonderful to have a cheap home test for vitamin D.

Also back then, I had very bad lower back pain at night and in the mornings. I was going to switch beds even though I already had a very nice one, but once I got healthier it completely vanished so it was not the bed (don't tell mattress manufacturers).

Started out at 5 to 10,000 IU of a liquid form that contains nothing other than MCT and lemmon essential oil, then I went out of town for a couple weeks switching to the other brand which was capsules containing coconut oil, glycerin, bovine gelatin. I went back down to 5,000 with that then increased to 10,000 for over a week. Once I got home I switched back. The lower back pain started about 3 days before coming home then got worse once I got home.

Both brands say D3 as cholecalciferol.

Of note: When taking the capsules I would basically chew one and and swallow the other (each was 5,000). So 5,000 was immediately absorbed.

I feel like I can rule out most confounding factors since the beds I slept on had no difference in back pain with and without supplementation in the past and pain level was continuous between out of town and at home. Not to mention I have done this experiment noticing this at least once in the past some time ago with no changes in routine.

I will probably start the supplementation again to see if back pain returns though I would still like to do a much more controlled experiment with this.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby SciameriKen on January 13th, 2018, 6:02 pm 

zetreque » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:38 pm wrote:I had my levels tested about 5 years ago and could look it up but recall being about a 25 and increased to 30 something when I supplemented back then. Since I have not seen nor can afford to go to the doctor over the past 5 years I have not had my levels checked. It would be wonderful to have a cheap home test for vitamin D.

Also back then, I had very bad lower back pain at night and in the mornings. I was going to switch beds even though I already had a very nice one, but once I got healthier it completely vanished so it was not the bed (don't tell mattress manufacturers).

Started out at 5 to 10,000 IU of a liquid form that contains nothing other than MCT and lemmon essential oil, then I went out of town for a couple weeks switching to the other brand which was capsules containing coconut oil, glycerin, bovine gelatin. I went back down to 5,000 with that then increased to 10,000 for over a week. Once I got home I switched back. The lower back pain started about 3 days before coming home then got worse once I got home.

Both brands say D3 as cholecalciferol.

Of note: When taking the capsules I would basically chew one and and swallow the other (each was 5,000). So 5,000 was immediately absorbed.

I feel like I can rule out most confounding factors since the beds I slept on had no difference in back pain with and without supplementation in the past and pain level was continuous between out of town and at home. Not to mention I have done this experiment noticing this at least once in the past some time ago with no changes in routine.

I will probably start the supplementation again to see if back pain returns though I would still like to do a much more controlled experiment with this.




You are on the high side of supplementation - 10K daily, especially in drops which may not be as consistent would be pushing you to high levels (~80-100 ng/ml) -- I would suggest just doing about 2000 daily
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on January 13th, 2018, 6:09 pm 

SciameriKen » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm wrote:

You are on the high side of supplementation - 10K daily, especially in drops which may not be as consistent would be pushing you to high levels (~80-100 ng/ml) -- I would suggest just doing about 2000 daily


Michael Holick in the video you posted above appears to disagree with that.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby SciameriKen on January 13th, 2018, 11:23 pm 

zetreque » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:09 pm wrote:
SciameriKen » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm wrote:

You are on the high side of supplementation - 10K daily, especially in drops which may not be as consistent would be pushing you to high levels (~80-100 ng/ml) -- I would suggest just doing about 2000 daily


Michael Holick in the video you posted above appears to disagree with that.


Are you going to trust Mike hollick - or me and your achy back? :)
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby zetreque on January 13th, 2018, 11:31 pm 

hahaha, Actually I "trust no one." In or outside of X-files. I trust my back though.

I would love to geek out with my own tester though. hmmmm... Amazon appears to be selling a DIY vitamin D test but has no decent description info. A couple years ago it seemed like Vitamin D was getting so popular it was only a matter of time before you could purchase your own test unit.

EDIT: out it's just a self draw kit.
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Re: vitamin D religion called into question

Postby doogles on January 14th, 2018, 3:20 am 

This is an interesting article because the lady did not have back pain, in addition to other clinical signs, till she had received a toxic dose of vitamin D - http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NE ... #t=article due to a serious error in the formulation of the supplement.
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