Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

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Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby toucana on June 3rd, 2017, 7:59 pm 

London Metropolitan police are responding to multiple terrorist incidents in central London tonight.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40146916

Police were first alerted to reports of a white van striking pedestrians on London Bridge at 22:08 BST. Shortly afterwards there were reports of people being stabbed in the Borough Market area which is directly to the south of London bridge. Reports indicated that three men armed with hunting knives were stabbing members of the public at random, and that patrons of a number of popular bars and restaurants in that area were barricaded inside for safety.

A number of witnesses subsequently reported hearing gunfire in the Borough Market area, and Metropolitan police sources indicate that armed response officers were involved, and had fired shots in that area.

Later reports said that police were also responding to a third stabbing incident in the Vauxhall Bridge area of central London which is some distance to the west of London Bridge, but this was said to be unconnected to the London Bridge incidents.

Police Twitter sources advised people caught within the cordon to "Run, Hide and Tell" and to seek a place of safety, which normally indicates that suspects are still at large.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby toucana on June 3rd, 2017, 10:20 pm 

Seven people are confirmed dead and at least another twenty were taken to hospital by London ambulance services after the London Bridge attacks.

http://news.sky.com/story/live-london-bridge-attack-police-confirm-a-suspect-is-still-at-large-10903581

Two terrorists were shot dead by armed police in a car park outside a bar in Stoney St. near Borough Markets just south of London Bridge. Another suspect was arrested and police say they are looking for at least one more suspect who is still at large.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/london-terror-attack-image-shows-suspect-shot-by-police-with-canisters-taped-to-body-a7771611.html

Prime Minister May and her cabinet will be holding a COBRA briefing early tomorrow to discuss the latest terrorist incidents.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 3rd, 2017, 10:51 pm 

Great work keeping on top of this Toucana, as always. My friends are asking "when will this end?" but it never will. It's a thing now, like war itself.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby BadgerJelly on June 4th, 2017, 3:39 am 

It will ease off once the election is over. Obviously targeted for as much media coverage as possible leading into election.

Repressed people will always find the resolve to rise above irrational fools.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby toucana on June 4th, 2017, 7:06 am 

As of this morning, seven people are confirmed dead, and 48 are in hospital.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40147164

Metropolitan Police commissioner Cressida **** said in a statement this morning that there were three attackers who were all shot dead by armed police response teams within eight minutes of the first alarm being raised. Several of the attackers were wearing fake explosive suicide vests.

Home Secretary Amber Rudd said in an interview for ITV 's Peston on Sunday show this morning that the JTAC assessment was that all of the attackers involved in last night's incident were accounted for, and that the national alert status would remain on 'high' rather than be raised to 'critical' again. Heavily armed police are reported to have raided a flat in Barking in east London during the night.

All the major political parties have suspended election campaigning until further notice (apart from the the fringe racist UKIP party led by Paul Nuttall).

The all star 'One Love' concert by Ariana Grande and guests to commemorate the victims of the Manchester bomb attack on 23 May is scheduled to go ahead tonight and will be broadcast on BBC1 from 6:55pm.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 4th, 2017, 8:48 am 

It is pretty clear now that even when on 'high alert', the authorities cannot prevent these attacks. It does not matter how powerful the army is, or how many communications are intercepted and analysed, an imbalanced western-born muslim who knows that he is being watched from outside, but is fuming on the inside, can just grab a knife or jump in a car and become a clebrated martyr among a large group of like-minded muslims. And this is all Theresa May can say on the topic:



She makes out that the freedom of the internet is to blame and that everyone should go about their lives as normal, that there needs to be more bombing of Islamists abroad, and that there is still too much tolerance for extremism in her country. There is no end in sight for the violence, and no realistic vision for ending these series of attacks.

The islamophobic comments below the abiove video are all focused on immigration, even though the recent Manchester bomber, for example, was native, as have been many other Islamist terrorists. Stopping immigration would not even prevent angry tourists from arriving, or dent the 5% of population that is muslim already living in the UK (from which recent Islamist terrorists have been raised), and an outright travel ban like Trump proposes would have to at least include Saudi Arabia of course, but the UK government are too invested in such ties to stop selling them arms, and so on.

The glaringly obvious element in this - aggressive foreign policy in the Middle East - remains unspoken by the British PM. There was practically none of this terrorism in the UK before the Iraq invasion, for example, and even Theresa May warned of bringing such violence home - as we are seeing in the UK at the moment - as a result of wars in the Middle East.

A war that spreads from abroad to the streets of one's nation can be labelled in different ways, but it is now apparent that this is indeed what it is, and these 'sleeper cell' type soldiers are undetectable until they decide to strike. Theresa May needs to come up with some better solutions than continuing bombing and thinking limiting internet freedoms is going to sort this mess out, imo. Declaring war on war does not bring peace - it just brings more suffering. A famous saying goes: "there is no way to peace, peace is the way"...
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 4th, 2017, 9:10 am 

Bravo to nearly all of the above, Mossling. Your Iraq invasion theory does not explain why France and Germany are on the receiving end of so much Islamic terrorism.

Saudi Arabia is the home and main exporter of Wahhabi ideology in the Middle East, and I think that to stop arming and funding it would be a very good start. The Conservatives - and, depressingly, probably the masses too - are not prepared to suffer the financial loss this would create. And I daresay Trump would be eager to fill the trade gap; if not him, others. But it would be a start.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby wolfhnd on June 4th, 2017, 11:58 am 

Islam is not a race and Islamophobia is an idiotic idea. Bad ideas need to be held up to the light even if you risk being labelled a racist or islamophobe.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 4th, 2017, 2:44 pm 

There's a paucity in our language. We need a word for the disliking of Islam, and a word for the treating peaceful Muslims as though they were theofascist ones. At the moment we're (well, I'm not) using the same word for both, which is rather unfortunate.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 5th, 2017, 7:14 am 

Lomax » June 4th, 2017, 10:10 pm wrote:Bravo to nearly all of the above, Mossling. Your Iraq invasion theory does not explain why France and Germany are on the receiving end of so much Islamic terrorism.

It seems that there has been a kind of western imperialism narrative since Iraq war - meddling in the middle East like the West used to meddle in Asia before.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Forest_Dump on June 5th, 2017, 7:27 am 

Very speculative on my part but in thinking how some young people in somewhat marginalized communities/ethnic groups, religions, etc. are becoming radicalized, I wonder if there are broader patterns at work. I wonder how different the suicidal terror attacks really are from some other home-grown terror attacks (e.g., the Oklahoma bombing years back) and the school shootings/going postal, etc. and I wonder about including some of the clusters of suicides in remote First Nations communities which may differ only in not taking other people with you. So there may be a common theme with differences primarily due to the ability of some external group (e.g. ISIS, some white supremist group, some religious cult) to take advantage and channelsome of these youth, etc. towars their own agenda.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 5th, 2017, 10:14 am 

Mossling » June 5th, 2017, 12:14 pm wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=322544#p322544]It seems that there has been a kind of western imperialism narrative since Iraq war - meddling in the middle East like the West used to meddle in Asia before.

It's the narrative but I don't altogether agree with it (and with regard to your simile, notice how few Vietnamese suicide bombers the US had on its soil). The Sykes-Picot agreement is something we are still paying the price for, in that it carved up the national boundaries of the Middle East for British and French convenience, rather than to represent the histories, ethnicities, cultures and affiliations of the people who lived there. Obviously things like the Balfour declaration had a similar effect. But to pin this situation on the Iraq War of 2003 plainly overlooks the fact that Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad was in Iraq from 1999; that there was an attempt on the World Trade Center in 1993 and another in 2001; that a fatwa was declared on Australia for the decidedly anti-imperial activity of freeing East Timor from US-backed Indonesia, and another was declared on Salman Rushdie and his translators and publishers for merely writing a book; that countries which made a point of staying out of the Iraq invasion have suffered far more Jihadist attacks than the UK has since 2003; and so on. Western imperialism is a causal factor in as much as that it has stifled the intellectual and economic growth, and social cohesion, of the Middle East; but that goes way farther back than 2003 (and includes our decisions to leave dictators in place at least as much as our decisions to oust them), and it should not be confused with the idea that radical Islam is an anti-imperial movement. If you want to know what they hate about the West just listen to them: they hate our democracy, our freedom, our religious pluralism (and "moderation"), our opulence and wealth and self-indulgence.

But the simpler point, regardless of their motives, is the anachronism. Jihadist violence was on our shores before 2003. Or, as some vapidly say, "have you forgotten"?
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 2:25 am 

Lomax » June 5th, 2017, 11:14 pm wrote:
Mossling » June 5th, 2017, 12:14 pm wrote:[quote="[url=http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=322544#p322544]It seems that there has been a kind of western imperialism narrative since Iraq war - meddling in the middle East like the West used to meddle in Asia before.

It's the narrative but I don't altogether agree with it (and with regard to your simile, notice how few Vietnamese suicide bombers the US had on its soil).

Arguably a different World Age, and also Vietnam was more a political war than religous one - communism and so forth. Middle East's politics more tied up with religion.

But the simpler point, regardless of their motives, is the anachronism. Jihadist violence was on our shores before 2003. Or, as some vapidly say, "have you forgotten"?

Indeed, and yet it seems that it was significantly exacerbated by the destabilising of Iraq and Libya. And it appears like there is the same intention with regards to Syria.

The West gave radical preachers some larger, more tasty bait to go fishing with. Many leading politicians and intelligence experts warned of this very potential at the time.

I do also think that there is an accompanying narrative that if an Islamist group kill enough people, then they get what they want (and very possibly they believe that Allah rewards them via mighty victory) - the creation of Pakistan is apparently a kind of case study for that, and that Bin Laden was hiding there and one of the most recent London-born terrorists' parents came from there points toward a ever-conquesting muslim self-view.

The UK muslims seem to only right now be waking up to what these recent series of attacks is meaning for them, and how this narrative is now too high-profile to spin. Thus:
Imams refuse funeral prayers to 'indefensible' London Bridge attackers
More than 130 religious leaders use unusual sanction to express disgust at murders ‘contravening Islam’ and vow to root out extremism

A bit of progress at least.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby BadgerJelly on June 6th, 2017, 2:48 am 

I guess the best we can do is side with the Muslims preaching peace (and getting bombed to death themselves in Pakistan by other "Muslims") and help them reclaim their religion and turn people away from violence.

Not sure how much truth there was in the piece made by the BBC where a member of the public had contacted the police with concerns about one of the bombers. He was apparently also thrown out of his local mosque for his radical views.

I guess we can accept that the police cannot follow every investigation and that they follow up as many leads as they can. A friend of mine used to be in the police force in the UK and he said the paper work is beyond ridiculous. Most of this stems from a so called "justice" system that is bogged down in the art of making the spoken word some kind of force to be used by lawyers to manipulate "laws" to fit their clients needs.

Admittedly, precision of language is never going to be fully achieved. I just think commonsense should rule over misuse of language. To treat the written word as a mathematical formula that dictates to us how to act and judge people is plain silly. This insanity has also been since in the media, and of course by politicians on all sides.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 3:06 am 

BadgerJelly » June 6th, 2017, 3:48 pm wrote:I guess the best we can do is side with the Muslims preaching peace (and getting bombed to death themselves in Pakistan by other "Muslims") and help them reclaim their religion and turn people away from violence.

I agree - if a Muslim is peaceful, then a non-peaceful Muslim act is not a Muslim act. They need to practice what they preach and demonstrate it - within their own communities and outside of them also, and oust any conquest-hungry imposters as the dangerous charlatans that they are with serious conviction.

Bin Laden received a proper Muslim 'burial', but now this kind of thing is on the decline it seems, and denying such a symbolic act seems a considerable and welcome step in the direction of spiritual clarity within Islam.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 6th, 2017, 9:48 am 

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:Arguably a different World Age, and also Vietnam was more a political war than religous one - communism and so forth. Middle East's politics more tied up with religion.

Exactly my point. The cause of this is Salafism.

As to the idea that the Iraq invasion is what has caused an increase: it simply doesn't account for the fire under which France has come. Mr Chirac built nuclear reactors for Mr Hussein and then vetoed the employment of the competent Mr Ekeus to lead the weapons inspection program. I would say that amounts to collaboration.

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 8:06 am wrote:I agree - if a Muslim is peaceful, then a non-peaceful Muslim act is not a Muslim act.

What would a logician make of this? If a person is six feet tall, then a five foot nine person is not a person. Consider it.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 10:44 am 

Lomax » June 6th, 2017, 10:48 pm wrote:
Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 7:25 am wrote:As to the idea that the Iraq invasion is what has caused an increase: it simply doesn't account for the fire under which France has come. Mr Chirac built nuclear reactors for Mr Hussein and then vetoed the employment of the competent Mr Ekeus to lead the weapons inspection program. I would say that amounts to collaboration.

I said before the Iraq invasion (which I hope one can include at least a year after the initial go-ahead), there was apparently far less radical Islamist terrorist activity in the UK, and also before the destabilisation of Libya.

I have highlighted a projectable Western imperialist narrative vs a conquest-hungry Islamist narrative that radical preachers seem to be invested in, and the destabilisation of Iraq and Libya apparently gave those preachers a huge increase in emotional ammunition to sway their victims while emphasising the 'invading imperialist' idea. Western Imperialists can easily be considered to (especially traditionally) include the French, Germany, and likely the whole of Europe - and anywhere else to be considered The West.

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 8:06 am wrote:I agree - if a Muslim is peaceful, then a non-peaceful Muslim act is not a Muslim act.

What would a logician make of this? If a person is six feet tall, then a five foot nine person is not a person. Consider it.

OK, If a six feet person is six feet tall, then a non-six feet person is not six feet tall, and may be five foot nine.

I am pointing out that if something non-peaceful is non-muslim, then a person who is acting non-peacefully cannot be acting as a muslim - or 'in the name of Islam'. Therefore, since Bin Laden seemed to be heavily invested in non-peace, then his muslim burial - awarded him by the US forces that killed and took his body, was seemingly unnecessary, as it has been deemed with regards to the recent London terrorists by a significant number of UK muslim community leaders.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 11:20 pm 

In France yesterday:

"the attacker, whose ID suggests he is an Algerian student, was carrying “rudimentary weapons” and shouted “this is for Syria” as he hit the 22-year-old police officer."
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby BadgerJelly on June 6th, 2017, 11:55 pm 

Mossling » June 7th, 2017, 11:20 am wrote:In France yesterday:

"the attacker, whose ID suggests he is an Algerian student, was carrying “rudimentary weapons” and shouted “this is for Syria” as he hit the 22-year-old police officer."


I single person is hardly substantial evidence :)

That aside I think we all get the general idea of the theorem. Messing up the Middle East has caused a lot of strife and hardships leading to a more fertile ground for certain regimes to get a better foothold. We all know violence breeds violence. I agree with this premise.

I think we'd be hard pressed to deny that war has helped the cause of these extremists. I think we'd also be hard pressed to say it is the only factor involved.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 7th, 2017, 12:05 am 

BadgerJelly » June 7th, 2017, 12:55 pm wrote:
Mossling » June 7th, 2017, 11:20 am wrote:In France yesterday:

"the attacker, whose ID suggests he is an Algerian student, was carrying “rudimentary weapons” and shouted “this is for Syria” as he hit the 22-year-old police officer."


I single person is hardly substantial evidence :)

That aside I think we all get the general idea of the theorem. Messing up the Middle East has caused a lot of strife and hardships leading to a more fertile ground for certain regimes to get a better foothold. We all know violence breeds violence. I agree with this premise.

I think we'd be hard pressed to deny that war has helped the cause of these extremists. I think we'd also be hard pressed to say it is the only factor involved.

There is plenty of further evidence out there - propaganda as well as violent acts.

And of course no one is denying that Islamism - a conquest-hungry violent perversion of the peaceful vision of Islam - exists.

It takes two (or more) to tango.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 7th, 2017, 6:41 pm 

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 3:44 pm wrote:
Lomax » June 6th, 2017, 10:48 pm wrote:
Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 8:06 am wrote:I agree - if a Muslim is peaceful, then a non-peaceful Muslim act is not a Muslim act.

What would a logician make of this? If a person is six feet tall, then a five foot nine person is not a person. Consider it.

OK, If a six feet person is six feet tall, then a non-six feet person is not six feet tall, and may be five foot nine.

I am pointing out that if something non-peaceful is non-muslim, then a person who is acting non-peacefully cannot be acting as a muslim

While your previous formulation was a reductio ad absurdum of a true premise, the new formulation is (more or less) valid construction upon an obviously false premise, which I suppose is still a step up. What makes you think that peaceful Muslims have any more claim to the word "Muslim" than violent ones do? The Quran is no exception to the general trend of ancient "holy" books containing mandates for atrocities. Who are we to tell Salafists that their interpretation of Sura 5:38 or Sura 4:15 (for example) is not the "true" one?

This stubborn attachment to the No True Scotsman fallacy simply makes the supposedly Enlightment-inspired defenders of "faith" and wish-thinking look as though they themselves are in denial. And to insist that a religion must be peaceful doesn't necessarily do the religion any favours in the long run either. Religions have a habit of suddenly turning pacifistic at just the time when an armed struggle might be warranted.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 8th, 2017, 1:32 am 

Lomax » June 8th, 2017, 7:41 am wrote:While your previous formulation was a reductio ad absurdum of a true premise, the new formulation is (more or less) valid construction upon an obviously false premise, which I suppose is still a step up. What makes you think that peaceful Muslims have any more claim to the word "Muslim" than violent ones do? The Quran is no exception to the general trend of ancient "holy" books containing mandates for atrocities. Who are we to tell Salafists that their interpretation of Sura 5:38 or Sura 4:15 (for example) is not the "true" one?

This stubborn attachment to the No True Scotsman fallacy simply makes the supposedly Enlightment-inspired defenders of "faith" and wish-thinking look as though they themselves are in denial. And to insist that a religion must be peaceful doesn't necessarily do the religion any favours in the long run either. Religions have a habit of suddenly turning pacifistic at just the time when an armed struggle might be warranted.

Well all religious texts have 'acceptable' violence in them, as well as emphases on always pursuing peace, and yet if we are to make those violent examples the core approach, then it seems that the ideology is less a religion and more a legalist dictatorial manual.

As Plato pointed out - peaceful cooperation comes naturally to humans, and this peaceful intent towards our potential cooperators is the true heart of the human success story on this planet (as it is for so many other social organisms), so I don't see anything wrong in encouraging religious followers to champion the peaceful side of their religion over the violent side - it makes scientific - economic - sense for everyone involved. It seems that average muslim in the West is not more concerned with violence than peace.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby toucana on June 8th, 2017, 5:54 am 

ambush.png

A graphic CCTV video released on British news media shows the exact moment a Metropolitan police armed response team confronted the London Bridge terrorists.

http://news.sky.com/story/cctv-reveals-the-moment-police-shot-london-bridge-terrorists-10908027

The clip shows just how violent and how brief the close-quarters gun battle was. The clip begins with the three terrorists attacking and stabbing an unidentified pedestrian in the street outside the Wheatsheaf pub in Borough Market. The victim is lying on the ground as the police vehicle arrives under blue lights and sirens.

Three armed officers deploy, two from the right rear door, and one from the front passenger door. The police car continues to roll forward down the street, and the three terrorists are all dead within four seconds before the car fully comes to a halt.

The ringleader Khuram Butt who attempts to attack the police is shot down on the left side of the car, Youssef Zaghba wearing a hooped shirt along with Rachid Redouane are shot on the right hand side of the car by the other two officers. One of these two officers stumbles and falls after shooting Zaghba, but his flank man shoots down Redouane at point blank range before he can stab the fallen officer.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... olice.html

The back-up team car arrives nine seconds later, but the action is long over.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Lomax on June 8th, 2017, 7:10 am 

Mossling » June 8th, 2017, 6:32 am wrote:Well all religious texts have 'acceptable' violence in them, as well as emphases on always pursuing peace, and yet if we are to make those violent examples the core approach, then it seems that the ideology is less a religion and more a legalist dictatorial manual.

As Plato pointed out - peaceful cooperation comes naturally to humans, and this peaceful intent towards our potential cooperators is the true heart of the human success story on this planet (as it is for so many other social organisms), so I don't see anything wrong in encouraging religious followers to champion the peaceful side of their religion over the violent side - it makes scientific - economic - sense for everyone involved. It seems that average muslim in the West is not more concerned with violence than peace.

I'm not suggesting violent religion is better than peaceful religion. I'm suggesting that trying to define violent religion out of existence - assuming what we set out to prove, in the face of the evidence - is not going to have any such effect. And contra Plato I'm sorry to say that aggressive competition seems to come naturally to humans too.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 8th, 2017, 7:45 am 

Lomax » June 8th, 2017, 8:10 pm wrote:And contra Plato I'm sorry to say that aggressive competition seems to come naturally to humans too.

Agreed, and it's not contra Plato, actually, humans are opportunists - short-term and long-term. When it's short-term then that's when the trouble begins it seems - when "the end is nigh", whether through apocalypse, imagined violent conquest, or otherwise. This is apparently why stone-built permanent communities are good for broader civilisation, it seems - it forces inhabitants to be more peaceful towards their neighbours because they have to live with the consequences if they don't.
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Re: Multiple Attacks In London Bridge Area

Postby Mossling on June 11th, 2017, 12:42 am 

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