Trump and tax cuts

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Trump and tax cuts

Postby BadgerJelly on December 25th, 2017, 8:14 am 

Being quick enough to voice concerns over Trump's rhetoric it seems only fair to spread some better news:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6X2rxfag0

I hope these tax cuts help out the US and boost the economy for you guys out there.

Just wish the coin thingy for presidents was not quite so flashy though! Looks like some 1980's tackiness all over again.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 25th, 2017, 3:24 pm 

BadgerJelly » Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:14 am wrote:Being quick enough to voice concerns over Trump's rhetoric it seems only fair to spread some better news:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S6X2rxfag0

I hope these tax cuts help out the US and boost the economy for you guys out there.

Just wish the coin thingy for presidents was not quite so flashy though! Looks like some 1980's tackiness all over again.



You are joking right? Some sick joke. This is the biggest nightmare yet! It's as if our government doesn't know how to run a country or a business other than into bankruptcy. Can no one think 10 minutes into the future? Continuing to participate in this thread... No thanks. I feel sick.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Braininvat on December 25th, 2017, 4:45 pm 

Let me try...

1. It's a deficit tax bill. It lowers the tax bill by running a huge deficit. And then takes away the reductions in 7 years.

2. We already have a huge national debt, and maintenance of the debt already reduces money that's available for the good stuff. This just pushes us farther down the bad path of being swallowed up in interest payments.

3. On the federal spending side, it slashes the social safety net for those most in need of help, while helping the rich (who least need government help) and corporations (which are presently enjoying growth, high capitalization for investment, and all the signs of a boom, which is when, according to economists, you LEAST need to provide a tax stimulus!).

4. Watch the damn video and tell me why that Fresno couple, raking in $300,000 a year (I assume that's net income from their fitness business, since the video is supposed to be doing comparable numbers) are somehow in the "middle class" (GUFFAW! SNORT!) and desperately in need of a tax break.

The bill is what we call "donor maintenance." Don't let anyone fool you into believing otherwise.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby BadgerJelly on December 26th, 2017, 12:36 am 

I think you're just looking to put the boot in where you can. I don't blame you and if I lived there I'd be worried too.

The world is changing quickly though so I'm not so quick to judge this as a bad move. It will certainly make people happier in the short term and I don't really think the difference is "disproportionate" as some media sources have been stating (but maybe it is, not looked at the numbers and the Pareto distribution myself.)

This kind of reminds me of Thatcher. Yes, it was messy and I am not really going to say she did "good", but I am not going to claim it was all bad either.

I can imagine China will buy into the US debt, which is kind of weird considering they are also competing with the US too. It does seem like things are tipping in China and that the infamous "Made in China" print will taper off as China becomes the prominent consumer nation.

Trump is not a complete idiot. He is bound to do something right, and if he does anything right it will likely be in the area of advertising and making nations believe him.

I do still think he'll leave a mess afterwards though. I am just hesitant to say this is a stupid move.

On the other side of the Atlantic I am still sticking to my prediction that the UK will not leave the EU at all, but rather instigate a rethink of how the EU will operate (but this is really down to Germany and France being in on the plan.)

Trump will see a second term too. The Democrats are completely out of touch now, there done until Trump has to leave office by law. He won't lose an election because the Democrats have shown themselves to be politically naïve/complacent.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 26th, 2017, 1:47 am 

Sorry Badger but as an outsider I don't think you have much credibility when it comes to saying anything on this matter in the grand context of what is taking place with all of this in the USA. The corporate powers are taking over in a big way while the government and protections are disappearing. Republicans are achieving what in their opinion is paradise. Pure capitalism without any protections and survival of the fittest in the business world. Throw the masses a few bucks in the short term while corporations reap billions, debt grows, tensions grow, and poor and unemployed lose freedom protections health and benefits. There is no reason to even debate this, we are seeing a repeat experiment of failed ones in the past and the only way people will learn is by it failing. People don't fix things unless they are forced to and that will be the way of climate change I fear.
And to say trump gets a second term is also a ridiculous baseless statement coming from an outsider I believe. He has the lowest first year rank of any president and the only way he is succeeding is by buying his way in and marketing techniques thanks to corporations and rich getting richer pyramid structure. Next term is up for grabs by a lot of different factors. It is not set in stone.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby BadgerJelly on December 26th, 2017, 5:25 am 

Don't be so quick to judge ;)
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby jocular on December 26th, 2017, 7:21 am 

Is there a danger of a global tax reduction war?A race to the bottom ....

Also might this presage a crash mark 2 as financial restrictions are eased?
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Braininvat on December 26th, 2017, 3:15 pm 

Who knows?

Financial regulation isn't just something governments do to be mean. They help insert control rods in the economy and prevent the worse effects of boom/bust cycles and rampant speculation.

Badger:

Trump will see a second term too. The Democrats are completely out of touch now, there done until Trump has to leave office by law. He won't lose an election because the Democrats have shown themselves to be politically naïve/complacent.


Several reasons that's unlikely. Trump is already showing evidence of mild dementia and concomitant emotional instability. 4 years won't improve that. Also, surveys across the country show growing support for Democrats. A Democrat won the U.S. Senate seat in Alabama, a deep red state. Voting was very strong, and there was no sign of complacency. Complacency ended on Nov. 9, 2016.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 26th, 2017, 4:49 pm 

That single mother, rejoicing in her little tax saving hasn't received her health insurance bill yet. It will be double or triple her refund.
The $300,000 a year couple have two professional jobs, plus a business. Not only are they looking at early burn-out, but they don't know yet how much federal money their state and municipality will lose as a result of the deficit, which they'll have to tack onto licensing and property taxes, and take out of infrastructure and services.
None of them know how much of their little tax reduction will go directly or indirectly into the pockets of mega-corporations with military and wall-construction contracts; into the environmental cleanup following re-regulation; into the interests payments on federal debt; down-stream to their children's education and quality of life.
Let them have their illusory moment between elections.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby curiosity on December 26th, 2017, 11:25 pm 

Is Donald Trump arrogant, or simply ignorant of political protocol and relatively recent world history? His accomplishments so far are...

Communicating directly with Taiwan instead of via China (at a time of heightened tension in the south china sea) Its Chinese internal politics, so by its own rules, America has no right to meddle.

Threatening to use nuclear weapons on Nth Korea after American conventional bombing so decimated the civilian population during the Korean war.
Anti-Americanism remained so strong in Nth Korea at the end of those hostilities, that no armistice has ever been signed.

Denying climate change in order to evade spending any government time or funds on tackling the problem.

The list goes on... No problems for trump though, giving middle class Americans a temporary tax cut and the very richest a permanent one, brings forgiveness, "even praise as a hero!" ( although probably not by your future generations who will have to pick up the tab.)

I'm not American, so I am not guilty of electing this man as president of the USA. I am however a citizen of this planet, so I am very concerned that this particular man has such a devastating arsenal of weaponry at his disposal. The world has become just as dangerous now as it would have become, had H Clinton won the last election.
Surely a nation as large as the USA could have found just one suitably intelligent and knowledgeable presidential candidate, in order to fill the post and let the rest of us sleep a little easier.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 27th, 2017, 1:27 am 

curiosity » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:25 pm wrote:Surely a nation as large as the USA could have found just one suitably intelligent and knowledgeable presidential candidate, in order to fill the post and let the rest of us sleep a little easier.


It is mind-blowing that we live in such an insane world as this. It's a reason I find it hard to even look at people when out in public these days. This is a case where there was definitely a lesser evil by far but the other evil was so bad that people had had enough.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 27th, 2017, 11:37 am 

It's mind-blowing that a nation of 200,000,000 more or less literate people can only nominate evil-they're-tired-of vs novelty-evil for the head of their government... and still get it wrong!
I bet half the 40 or so fringe candidates would have made a better choice, but the voters never got to hear of them.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 27th, 2017, 1:17 pm 

Serpent » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:37 am wrote:It's mind-blowing that a nation of 200,000,000 more or less literate people can only nominate evil-they're-tired-of vs novelty-evil for the head of their government... and still get it wrong!
I bet half the 40 or so fringe candidates would have made a better choice, but the voters never got to hear of them.


I find myself standing in public (like a grocery store) and observing random people thinking "that person would probably by far make a better president than what we have." About five days ago I was in a crowd and picked out the worst looking character and tried to imagine if he would make a better president than what we have now and it was a difficult decision. If the random stranger was president the worst I could imagine was a new law where everyone wore pants with the crotch that sagged down to their knees and maybe free joints for all instead of a tax cut.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Braininvat on December 27th, 2017, 2:06 pm 

Well, in 2016, the GOP fielded something like 17 candidates for the primaries and all of them, except for a couple of real duds (like Ben Carson), were far better than Trump. So it's not like people didn't have a choice. Several, like Rand Paul, John Kasich, Jeb! Bush, and Marco Rubio, had political experience and had shown genuine skill at working on bipartisan initiatives and some level of committment to the principles of democracy and the Constitution. Next to the Trump we now have, they all look like Benjamin Disraeli. Any electorate that would vote for Trump over those guys is, IMO, painfully gullible.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby someguy1 on December 27th, 2017, 4:45 pm 

Guess who said that tax cuts for 91% of the middle class are a "very good thing."

Bernie Sanders.

The quote is right at the beginning of the video. (Five second ad before the vid).

To be fair, Sanders immediately complains that the tax cuts aren't permanent. In other words Bernie's major complaint isn't that the tax bill is bad. It's that it's good but some of its provisions aren't permanent. Bernie likes the tax bill and wishes its features would last forever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsTcF-8IL-Q
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 27th, 2017, 7:47 pm 

someguy1 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:45 pm wrote:Guess who said that tax cuts for 91% of the middle class are a "very good thing."

Bernie Sanders.

The quote is right at the beginning of the video. (Five second ad before the vid).

To be fair, Sanders immediately complains that the tax cuts aren't permanent. In other words Bernie's major complaint isn't that the tax bill is bad. It's that it's good but some of its provisions aren't permanent. Bernie likes the tax bill and wishes its features would last forever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsTcF-8IL-Q


So? He also says what others have said above.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 27th, 2017, 7:59 pm 

someguy1 » December 27th, 2017, 3:45 pm wrote:To be fair, Sanders immediately complains that the tax cuts aren't permanent. In other words Bernie's major complaint isn't that the tax bill is bad. It's that it's good but some of its provisions aren't permanent. Bernie likes the tax bill and wishes its features would last forever.

Money saved from any source by the middle class tends to stay in the country - either as various claw-backs or spent on consumer goods, homes and services; improving the economy and creating jobs.
The cuts for the super-rich are permanent. The spending on military crap and war are permanent. All of that - rather a lot of - money is going right out of the country, to be blown up, or make trouble, or to invested abroad or hidden in some tax haven.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 27th, 2017, 8:00 pm 

IRS: 2018 property taxes deductible if assessed and paid in 2017
http://thehill.com/policy/finance/366623-irs-2018-property-taxes-deductible-if-assessed-and-paid-in-2017

“You are damned right,” Cuomo said. "This is now red vs. blue. They are using New York, California and the other blue states to finance the tax cuts in red states."
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 27th, 2017, 8:17 pm 

Currently watching the very first batman. The Joker reminds me of Trump in several ways.

"who do you trust, me? I'm giving away free money, and where is the batman?"...

"Gas, He is gonna kill everybody"
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 28th, 2017, 3:44 pm 


Robert B. Reich has served in three national administrations, most recently as secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton. His latest book is "Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few."
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 28th, 2017, 4:22 pm 

Oh look, another lie straight into the face of gullible Americans that love to eat BS.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/ ... omy-260858
The White House hopes to boost President Donald Trump’s low approval ratings by using the economy as a centerpiece of its political message in 2018, according to three White House officials, even if many of the president’s successes so far are squarely built on the legacy of former President Barack Obama.

"We took a big, big beautiful ship that we’re turning around, and a lot of good things are happening," the president said Wednesday while meeting with first responders in West Palm Beach, Florida.

The trend has been remarkably consistent for the past eight years (under Obama). And just one year ago, Trump called the jobless rate “totally fiction.” In February 2016 he suggested the real unemployment rate was as high as 42 percent.


When the hell are people going to get sick and fedup with this garbage show put on by a psychopath and one of the biggest hypocrites in the world.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 28th, 2017, 5:28 pm 

When he deports their relatives.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby someguy1 on December 28th, 2017, 7:33 pm 

Serpent » December 27th, 2017, 5:59 pm wrote:The spending on military crap and war are permanent. All of that - rather a lot of - money is going right out of the country, to be blown up, or make trouble, or to invested abroad or hidden in some tax haven.


See I agree with you about this. I'm a liberal's liberal when it comes to war. I'm against it. I was against the Iraq war in 2002 when Hillary and all the "centrist" Democrats were for it.

One of the reasons Trump won was that many independents and liberals are simply sick of all the wars. And it's the Dems like Hillary and DiFi and Schumer who are among the biggest warmongers in the country. Bush never could have gotten his war in Iraq without the complicity of the Dems.

That's why it's not enough to hate on Trump. You have to do something to reform the Democratic party.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby toucana on December 28th, 2017, 7:59 pm 

Okay. Here was Donald Trump as a candidate in 2016 when he first began receiving classified security briefings:
"Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump. And three times [Trump] asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked at one point if we had them why can't we use them," ( 03 August 2016)

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/03/trump-asks-why-us-cant-use-nukes-msnbcs-joe-scarborough-reports.html


Now here was Donald Trump as president this summer:
President Donald Trump said he wanted what amounted to a nearly tenfold increase in the U.S. nuclear arsenal during a gathering this past summer … It was soon after the meeting broke up that officials who remained behind heard Tillerson say that Trump is a “moron.”

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/11/1706035/-Mushroom-clouds-and-an-idiot-with-the-nuclear-codes-Or-why-Tillerson-called-Trump-a-moron


To be fair this second quote is not entirely accurate. The Secretary of state actually called Trump a "f******g moron".
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 28th, 2017, 8:09 pm 

someguy1 » December 28th, 2017, 6:33 pm wrote:One of the reasons Trump won was that many independents and liberals are simply sick of all the wars.

And he said he would stop the wars, and they said, "Oh, yes. He may have lied his whole life about everything from his fitness for military service, to his tax return, to his foundation, to his university, to what he said in a political speech last night, but I'm sure he must be telling the truth about this." Riiiight!
Don't be piling on me about your stupid two-party system.

That's why it's not enough to hate on Trump. You have to do something to reform the Democratic party.

Can't. But I wish my American friends would. I've been warning them for fifteen years about neglecting the South and putting everything from the judiciary to the army on sale to the fattest corporation.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby someguy1 on December 28th, 2017, 9:39 pm 

Serpent » December 28th, 2017, 6:09 pm wrote:And he said he would stop the wars, and they said, "Oh, yes. He may have lied his whole life about everything from his fitness for military service, to his tax return, to his foundation, to his university, to what he said in a political speech last night, but I'm sure he must be telling the truth about this." Riiiight!


Trump's foreign policy has clearly been captured by the maniac warmongers. It's a disappointment. If you want to call me stupid for believing Trump, well really I never believed anything Trump said. But Hillary has a track record of warmongering and at least Trump offered a counternarrative. I'm not surprised that his foreign policy has been a disappointment.

But isn't it odd that it's the Dems who are raising all this anti-Russia hysteria? It's the left baying for blood and war these days. Trump stands against that. He said he wanted cooperative relations with Russia and I support that.


Serpent » December 28th, 2017, 6:09 pm wrote:Don't be piling on me about your stupid two-party system.


I usually end up voting third-party most years. In the US it's futile of course because our winner-take-all system makes voting for third parties a waste of one's vote.

I do admire the parliamentary system where every obscure little party has a chance to have its representative become part of a coalition government. Much more sensible.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 28th, 2017, 10:52 pm 

someguy1 » December 28th, 2017, 8:39 pm wrote:Trump's foreign policy has clearly been captured by the maniac warmongers.

It's been obvious from all his campaigns that Trump had no "policy" whatsoever, on any issue. He just randomly said whatever came into his head, whatever his buddies or children brought to his attention, whatever he heard on his favourinte tv network and social media. If anybody cheered, he'd say it again; if his enemies criticized, he'd double down; if his perceived base didn't approve, he'd deny it.
If you want to call me stupid for believing Trump,

I didn't say that; I didn't know that. I called the US political system stupid - but only because it is,

But Hillary has a track record of warmongering and at least Trump offered a counternarrative.

He offered a lot of hot air with zero substance, and a whole lot of sleaze.
But how did it come down to this choice? Because Americans have been complacently, blindly trusting in their balance of powers, in their constitution; because they've been listening to "narratives" instead of paying attention to what was actually going on.
Because they kept on believing in a system that was deeply flawed from the outset; while they've had ample opportunity to reform it, they instead slapped down anyone who tried to get them to think - all those awful academics and activist judges and independent broadcasters: ptui! They're making us feel not so good and admiring of ourselves: Shut them up!! They've allowed it to become ever more corrupt.
That's not your personal fault - it's just people.

But isn't it odd that it's the Dems who are raising all this anti-Russia hysteria? It's the left baying for blood and war these days.

Baying for war? I haven't heard this... but then, I haven't been listening to the news much.
It's always the party that's out of power that's critical of the administration. You just discovering this? As to "raising hysteria", from the left this usually means publishing articles full of statistics, logistics and other factual information in obscure magazines and occasional ten-minute interviews on public tv, while the right is calmly, rationally broadcasting fairandbalanced commentary on a thousand privately-owned stations whose owners write copy that newscasters are required to say. (Unless, by "the left" you mean the FBI?)


Trump stands against that.

Trumps stands neither for or against anything, except making even more money, getting even with his detractors and staying in the limelight.

He said he wanted cooperative relations with Russia and I support that.

Why not? It doesn't really matter which nuclear powers he's in bed with and which he pisses off; all their missiles kill you equally well. Still, I - this is merely a personal opinion - don't think even the most benign and friendly ones ought to be deciding your election results.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Braininvat on December 29th, 2017, 11:11 am 

But isn't it odd that it's the Dems who are raising all this anti-Russia hysteria? It's the left baying for blood and war these days. Trump stands against that. He said he wanted cooperative relations with Russia and I support that.


I haven't heard the Left baying for blood and war. And "hysteria" is a polemic word, so it doesn't constitute argument. It's just a facile putdown of someone's position. Anyway, this baying Left, they must be awfully quiet about it. Or maybe 99% of the Left still want peace, justice, equal rights, economics as if poor people mattered, etc. and 1% are 20-something ruffians who act out in various ways and draw all kinds of media attention from organizations that are trolling desperately for click bait and dramatic sound bites. As for Russia, AFAICT the Left wants what most people want, for Putin, a repressive fascist, to be contained with firm sanctions and a stern position against his various human rights abuses and aggression against now-sovereign states. And for the Kremlin to stay out of our democratic electoral process. If Hillary was a hawk (hard to tell, since the entire Senate voted for the Iraq war powers resolution when she was there, and as Sec. of State she had to do what the boss instructed her to do....so her Presidential hawkishness was, and remains, purely hypothetical), then currying that image might have helped push back against Putin in a hypothetical Clinton admin.

BTW, if anyone doubts my assessment of Putin, I suggest you look at the news from the past few days, and how he deep-sixed his only opponent in the upcoming presidential election. Where is the loud condemnation from our #45? And, of course, the perennial question of why 45 doesn't condemn Russia's hacking and general cyber-warfare and disinformation campaign, for which there are now mountains of evidence - Russian cyber-attacks on our democratic process are now well-established fact known to the entire intelligence community. Hardly "hysteria."

We've strayed from tax cuts. lol.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby Serpent on December 29th, 2017, 3:13 pm 

I can tell you one thing about the tax cuts: now, there won't be sufficient funds for that deep delve into the hundreds of thousands of non-existent California voters, and other alleged election frauds.
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Re: Trump and tax cuts

Postby zetreque on December 29th, 2017, 3:24 pm 

Serpent » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:13 am wrote:I can tell you one thing about the tax cuts: now, there won't be sufficient funds for that deep delve into the hundreds of thousands of non-existent California voters, and other alleged election frauds.


All the things we can't fund thanks to shrinking government and shrinking ability to do stuff like look into fraud is why smart people/corporations take their tax cut and horde it away as a means of more protection against unregulated growth and recessions. That is one reason why tax cuts like this don't help because the majority of the money gets horded and not reinvested into the economy.
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