I just bought this site

Anyone can post and discuss breaking news that interest them (please respect posting guidelines and be sure to reference properly).
Forum rules
Please be sure to check our forum's Rules & Guidelines

Re: I just bought this site

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 12:20 pm 

Believe it or not there are people who use science as an escape. When politics is full of rubbish and philosophy isn't entirely testable, science can have a sense of reality. When someone is seeking intelligent science on the internet, the last thing some of them want is Trump's latest affair thrown in their face when they go to see what people are talking about.

And for a community like this to function and be respected it has to have a strong leadership, talented moderators, and protocols/rules. That's what has made this forum great in the past. We have lost some strong voices on this forum and politics for example is certainly not something I can handle that great.

To grow this community, one must understand the inner workings of how science and philosophy work along with what makes up the user base for each and how they interact. The site either has to either narrow it's focus to one or figure out a way for them to coexist. There has to be a level of separation while still allowing them to mix somehow.

You also have to figure out a way to somehow meet the small community that people like vs the large forum. Another reason this forum has been so wonderful in the past is BioWizard was never one for major growth. You lose quality over quantity (looks like badgerjelly beat me to saying this).

There is a lot going on here for this website. So far we don't even know if the new owner(s) are the type of people to read long threads like this and be able to "handle it". That's another thing, you have to balance out the academics and readers who can easily write pages long posts interacting with one another to the general public that are interested but easily get overwhelmed with longer in depth conversations.
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Admin1 on March 27th, 2018, 12:39 pm 

Braininvat » 27 Mar 2018 16:04 wrote:
zetreque » March 27th, 2018, 8:40 am wrote:It's true politics has brought more to the forum and I think it's an immensely important topic for people to be able to discuss but I think it has also chased away many. There are ways to go about doing it to protect the forum for growth since that's what they want. The new owner needs to take a long hard look at what direction he wants to take this forum and how it will affect the user base. And again, There needs to be a moderator for it. As long as we are forced into being totally public and transparent here, I have been the only moderator taking care of reports and spam for two months and this whole transition happens without even asking me for an update or fixing things like the avatars and now notification system that crashed during this transition that someone moderating the forum regularly can notice. Hence my frustration right now.


TO REPEAT: I mod/admin'd for 3 years. I am again volunteering to assist with reports and spam. Turn me on!

I can see both sides here on the political stuff. I think it really goes to a deeper question, which has been hanging in the air since this place decided to do both science and philosophy. To me, you have to pick one to be the dominant theme and then the other augments that. Since science was the starting theme, back in 2004, one possible approach is to have philosophy forae that support the big questions in science. Many great threads in the past 4 years have done this, looking at philosophy of science questions, the Method, the nature of consciousness and cognition, bioethics, and physics where it meets metaphysics and epistemology. So, with some artful trimming, you could do that perhaps. Forums with titles like Physics and Metaphysics, or Life Sciences and Bioethics, or Information Science and Consciousness....and yes, perhaps a Science and Politics forum? A new member, Event Horizon, started a perfect thread for that last, recently, on what sorts of policy should there be regarding military technology.

And I'm going to tag Ted again, because he should be joining this chat: Admin1


Hi all, avatars have been fixed. We'll look into the notification issue. We could also implement browser notifications (upon your own approval) that would show on Chrome/Safari when you were mentioned, even when you're not on the site.

Politics seems like an interesting idea. It obviously has potential problems, been when has science not been highly affected by politics. As long as a moderator can focus the conversation I suppose.

We are going to try and drive more readers and participators here. I personally think social media as an industry is pretty broken right now, and I also find Reddit to be rather unwelcoming from a community perspective. Here are some overall ideas that we are just kicking around right now:

-Upgrading security on the site and moving it to an SSL (https)
-Updating the look/feel of the site while leaving all the functionality in the same place
-Creating an additional page for a straight-forward feed of the latest posts, allowing you to view newest items not based on which category they are in, but when they are created.
-Adding a point system. The only purpose of it would be to give away items to our strongest community members. i.e books, tablets, etc. We get tons of free products as a company and din't use half of what we get.
-Helping to drive new members to the forum. I'm hoping as a community there is some openness to welcome constructive new voices and opinions.

Lastly, I did want to mention that the amount of ads on the site will remain the same as they are currently.
Admin1
 
Posts: 23
Joined: 31 Dec 1969


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 27th, 2018, 12:50 pm 

Creating an additional page for a straight-forward feed of the latest posts, allowing you to view newest items not based on which category they are in, but when they are created.


Erm, doesn't New Posts already do this, quite effectively?? Sounds like a fix for a nonexistent problem.

Adding a point system. The only purpose of it would be to give away items to our strongest community members. i.e books, tablets, etc. We get tons of free products as a company and din't use half of what we get.


First, who is "we." Second, ugh. Seriously? This is a fairly intellectual group. I don't think that will really generate much excitement here. Most of us have ready access to the books and equipment we want. And not everyone here would want to give out their personal address and related information. This is a forum of ideas, not things.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 12:58 pm 

We could also implement browser notifications (upon your own approval) that would show on Chrome/Safari when you were mentioned, even when you're not on the site.


Please keep in mind that some forum users don't have the best of computers and also some aren't all that tech savvy. My computer isn't even that old and I am tech savvy and I am still having problems with scripts being added to websites slowing down my computer by activating strange background processes.
Creating an additional page for a straight-forward feed of the latest posts, allowing you to view newest items not based on which category they are in, but when they are created.


It would be nice to have a customization filtered "What's New" section/feature.
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 1:01 pm 

Braininvat » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:50 am wrote:
And not everyone here would want to give out their personal address and related information.


I second that. The facebook age I believe is one of the problems with the internet. Especially if the world has a new found love of racism.

PS: Thanks for fixing the avatars. What a world of difference :))
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby BadgerJelly on March 27th, 2018, 1:09 pm 

Biv -

Erm, doesn't New Posts already do this, quite effectively?? Sounds like a fix for a nonexistent problem.


My complaint here has been with the Religious discussions never showing up in new posts. That would be welcome to me because I have an interest in the history and development of religions.

I'd also prefer the time period to be extended to 48 hours or more? I regularly look on the site and even I miss some new posts.
User avatar
BadgerJelly
Resident Member
 
Posts: 5115
Joined: 14 Mar 2012


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 27th, 2018, 1:17 pm 

I concede Badger's point on the New Posts page. Change is good.

I remain baffled by the free gifts to "strongest" community members idea.

Ted, can you fill in your Admin1 profile information, so we information-hungry folk can better know you and what your company is?
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 27th, 2018, 1:19 pm 

Or just say something here?

And, again, where is BioWizard? Can he step out of his Cone of Silence for a minute?
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 1:24 pm 

Braininvat » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:17 am wrote:I concede Badger's point on the New Posts page. Change is good.


Giving members (not talking moderators, that's another topic) the ability to customize/filter their own new posts page would be of great benefit. It gives people freedom over filtering their world. We can leave out the debate on if filtering into your own bubble is good or not but having the choice to turn that filter on and off can be a good thing. Pros and Cons, but right now I am seeing pros.
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby toucana on March 27th, 2018, 2:11 pm 

On the general subject of News coverage:

Users who can remember back more than a couple of years may recall there used to be *two* News sections here on the forum pages. One explicitly for for 'Science News', and the other (and substantially larger one) for more general 'News'. I used to post articles in both of them, but usually favoured the general News section because I was at best a working technician rather than a scientist.

At a certain point, the admins decided to merge the two news sections into each other and call it the 'News Discussion Forum', which is fine, but it's a little disingenuous to try and pretend that it was only ever a "Science News' forum that somehow became contaminated with current affairs and politics. If anything the truth was the other way round, because the general News section usually received substantially more posts than the old 'Science News' section ever did.

I endeavour to write about a range of different subjects including recently the engineering failure of the FIU bridge, the use of computational linguistics to decode the Voynich manuscript, and the latest search for MH370. I also try to highlight important news stories carried in the European press that American readers often miss because they don't get translated much out of French or German.

I sometimes find it hard to assess which stories are going to be of general scientific and technical interest, and which are outliers. The MH370 story for example was one I only posted as an afterthought, as I didn't think anyone else would be that interested.

Some people may feel that too many stories dwell over-much on the current politics of the USA. The problem is that the magnitude of what is currently going on in Washington DC makes it rather hard to ignore ("That apart Mrs Lincoln, what did you think of the play ?"). You can try and ignore it if you want, but the ongoing implosion of the current Trump presidency will inevitably pull attention back to itself however hard you try.
User avatar
toucana
Chatroom Operator
 
Posts: 975
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Location: Bristol UK
Blog: View Blog (7)


Re: Who's Afraid of Ads?

Postby Faradave on March 27th, 2018, 2:23 pm 

Hi Ted,

Money is not such a bad thing, especially if it's invested in improvements. The number and quality of ads is a commentary on the forum. Don't be afraid of them.

Members may be apprehensive about ads because they're distracting. No problem. Ads can be triggered by keywords extracted from posts. If a thread is discussing Relativity, and ads for related books appear on the page, what's not to like? Telescope ads for astronomy threads? You get the idea.

Reward Members for:
Loyalty (length of membership)
Productivity (# of posts, possibly weighted by length)
Interest (# views achieved. Advertisers rely on this.)
Quality (# likes received)
Referrals (new members who recognize a prior member's recommendation)

Rewards (for merit scores derived from above):
less advertising (obviously):, members can earn ad-free status for increasing periods of time
status: people like to be recognized (admit it or not) member titles, subtitles (donor, docent, expert, etc.), even # gold stars (1-5) under the avatar have an effect.
larger avatar: up to 4x the number of pixels.
enhanced editing: increasing merit earns greater post editing time (up to 48 hrs. instead of 1), extended symbol set (see example below), highlighter (more colors with more merit), more fonts & font sizes.
etc.: I couldn't bring myself to suggest an emoji set (yuk) in bold but people seem to like them available, perhaps limited to 2/post.

Moderators: (unsung heroes)
These folks of course, automatically get ad-free, full editing etc. Anything to make their lives easier (perhaps even a small interest in ad revenue).
Caution Highlighter: Instead of having to laboriously move threads to Personal Theories because they fail to adhere to convention, mods should be able to highlight any text with a unique color that indicates to the naïve reader that this departs from conventional wisdom. Then caveat emptor.

Accept Bribe$ (i.e. donations):
Members should be able to purchase, at modest cost ($10/year, $45 permanent) ad-free status and be rewarded with the title "Sponsor" (for annual), "Benefactor" (for permanent).


symbols: –² ½ ³∆'π"°√≈≠≤≥±∞εμωħγΨΦθ½⅛¼¾ÄÅß÷øēƒəΓΔΘΛΞΠΣΨΦΩαβγδζηκλνξοπρςστυφψ¢©®™∂∑∞∫≡●•
Last edited by Faradave on March 27th, 2018, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Faradave
Active Member
 
Posts: 1651
Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Location: Times Square (T2)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 2:32 pm 

I am currently against a status/rewards system on this forum. I have tried other forums and it's a real turn-off to see status titles by ignorant people just because they have been around for so long or frequently post nonsense. While some status might be beneficial I would strongly caution how it's implemented if it is.

I think it was a good idea also that we removed the visibility of how many likes a member receives.

One reason for this is you could have a not so active member that is highly respected or you can have an active member that is highly respected and if you reward status for activity it doesn't work. Discussions on this topic can be found in older threads.

Then you have someone that might just be around for the rewards or status and it takes away value from their posts.
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: No Problemo

Postby Faradave on March 27th, 2018, 2:39 pm 

zetreque wrote: it's a real turn-off to see status titles

Easy fix! As a reward (automatic for mods) is an on/off switch which let's the viewer decide to ignore (i.e. not see) status.
User avatar
Faradave
Active Member
 
Posts: 1651
Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Location: Times Square (T2)


Re: No Problemo

Postby zetreque on March 27th, 2018, 2:48 pm 

Faradave » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:39 am wrote:
zetreque wrote: it's a real turn-off to see status titles

Easy fix! As a reward (automatic for mods) is an on/off switch which let's the viewer decide to ignore (i.e. not see) status.


:)

Personally, I don't think it's good practice for mods to be immune to seeing ads or turning things off filtering things like status in this case because they need to have a clear picture of what is going on for the well being of the system or component they are supposed to be moderating.

Example: if there is a glitch in the ad or status function, they should be aware of it to respond.

I'm not against general targeted ads as long as privacy isn't compromised. I have yet to see an ethical ad system though. If I am on a science forum, I see nothing wrong with science related ads but just wish they were ethical. I would love to get a new microscope right now.. A fake Russian bride... not so much.
User avatar
zetreque
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 3508
Joined: 30 Dec 2007
Location: Paradise being lost to humanity
Blog: View Blog (3)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby mitchellmckain on March 27th, 2018, 3:20 pm 

News and politics is not going to affect my participation one way or another, though to tell the truth sometimes the forum is the only way I hear about things.

I am here for the science and philosophy of course, and I think the religion section is important for simple purpose of drawing lines -- you know, for the same reason we have a "personal theories" section.

In general, I am not in favor of reducing the number of topic/discussion areas in any way. Different topic areas have different methodologies and switching from one area to another reminds us of the different standards and thus to switch hats. If anything, more topic areas is better in order explore even more areas of life together.
User avatar
mitchellmckain
Member
 
Posts: 977
Joined: 27 Oct 2016


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Serpent on March 27th, 2018, 3:45 pm 

-Updating the look/feel of the site while leaving all the functionality in the same place

One of the things I like about this site is its simplicity. It has a clean look that's easy to read. Add flash, and you may lose serious participants.

-Creating an additional page for a straight-forward feed of the latest posts, allowing you to view newest items not based on which category they are in, but when they are created.

That would make no difference to me. In fact, i don't see how it matters to anyone.

-Adding a point system. The only purpose of it would be to give away items to our strongest community members. i.e books, tablets, etc. We get tons of free products as a company and din't use half of what we get.

"Not a fan" as I tell Windows every morning when it tries to give me pictures of too-lit-up cities.
Merit systems, seniority ratings, status rankings are useless frills that clutter up the site.
Has anyone seen Scribophile? It's warm and welcoming, but way too complicated - often not worth the bother. From my utilitarian perspective, the less cute, the better.

-Helping to drive new members to the forum.

What, like a cattle roundup?
You can try attracting people, but it's easier to just refrain from driving them away.

I'm hoping as a community there is some openness to welcome constructive new voices and opinions.

The operative word there is "constructive". I've seen a few previously quite interesting forums succumb to an invasion of adolescent rowdies, white supremacist wingnuts or religious proselytizers. They travel in packs (or itinerant puppet-shows?) and when they arrive, I leave.

FWIW
Last edited by Serpent on March 27th, 2018, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Serpent
Resident Member
 
Posts: 2858
Joined: 24 Dec 2011


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 27th, 2018, 3:46 pm 

Status/ rewards systems are cheesy and distracting. Your reward for saying something useful, insightful, penetrating, witty, whatever is this: people listen to you, and respond. It's an excellent system that's been around for millennia. Also, members who accumulate merit points or stars or sequins then acquire a halo effect that may conceal errors and omissions. Again, res ipso loquitur: the post speaks for itself. We have words, we can use them to express approval. Or nominate a member for canonization, if need be.

Agree with Serpent's comments. The less cute, the better.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Lincoln on March 27th, 2018, 3:59 pm 

Only semi-related note. The "unsubscribe" button seems to not be working, nor the link in notification emails.

I did both and continue to get email notifications for this thread.

Just FYI.
User avatar
Lincoln
Resident Expert
 
Posts: 11087
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Location: Deep in a lab...


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Watson on March 27th, 2018, 4:16 pm 

It worked for me, and that is another issue. Seems we get subscribed automatically by making a comment. It should be an opt-in process, not an opt-out.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4570
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Watson on March 27th, 2018, 4:17 pm 

It worked for me, and that is another issue. Seems we get subscribed automatically by making a comment. It should be an opt-in process, not an opt-out.
User avatar
Watson
Resident Member
 
Posts: 4570
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Earth, middle of the top half, but only briefly each 24 hours.


Re: Facing Reality

Postby Faradave on March 27th, 2018, 4:19 pm 

Braininvat wrote: The less cute, the better.

Lincoln wrote:Since my thing is science outreach, I turned my attention to venues with more eyeballs.
If the new owner can improve traffic while avoiding some of the pitfalls of many science chat sites, all the better. If it fails, well then it was becoming moribund already.


It's not an ideal world. Sites cost money to operate. The product is pixels, the customer is eyeballs.

Before I got banned (x5 at last count) from PF, I was happy to fork over $45 for (what I thought was) permanent ad-free, enhanced-edit experience. Switches can be provided for as clean an environment as you like.
User avatar
Faradave
Active Member
 
Posts: 1651
Joined: 10 Oct 2012
Location: Times Square (T2)


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Event Horizon on March 27th, 2018, 6:00 pm 

Is this an open Mods thread? Twice now my post just disappearing into the ether is unusual.

I think this is an apex science discussion forum, and the new owner lucked out bigtime. This could evolve into a major serious science hub, though we have time for trivialities too.
I want our intellectual property to belong to the originator(s), and any patents arising from them. I worked like many people in companies that automatically had the rights to any patents and intellectual property. I didn't like it so built my own lab. I wouldn't like to see that happen here.

No pop-ups please.

No political or overt support for anyone by "The Site" or political advertising on the site might also be sensible.
Event Horizon
Member
 
Posts: 143
Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Location: England somewhere.


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Lomax on March 27th, 2018, 7:39 pm 

Braininvat » March 27th, 2018, 8:46 pm wrote:Status/ rewards systems are cheesy and distracting. Your reward for saying something useful, insightful, penetrating, witty, whatever is this: people listen to you, and respond. It's an excellent system that's been around for millennia. Also, members who accumulate merit points or stars or sequins then acquire a halo effect that may conceal errors and omissions. Again, res ipso loquitur: the post speaks for itself. We have words, we can use them to express approval. Or nominate a member for canonization, if need be.

Agree with Serpent's comments. The less cute, the better.

I think it can be done right or wrong. We used to have a system of likes and dislikes, with a user's total balance displayed beneath their avatar. The decline in intellectual standards after this was introduced was immediate and striking. The system didn't last long.

On the other hand our current "likes" system simply gives us a simple way of saying "I agree" or "haha" or "very clever" or whatever, without having to write a post which says such mere things. Something modest like that is fine, and I think it probably even fosters good spirit on the forum.

Conclusion: we need to be careful with reward systems, think them through, be prepared to trial and admit error, and not make them too substantial. We need to think about what norms they encourage. Laptop giveaways will encourage the wrong norms. (But if you're desperate to get rid of one, Ted, I can make space on my desk. Just sayin'.)
User avatar
Lomax
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 3653
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Location: Nuneaton, UK


Re: I just bought this site

Postby kudayta on March 27th, 2018, 9:17 pm 

So on the chat room side of things, which is still connected to this site I think, we don't really much care about the forums anymore. That said, most of the people that come to us from the website are looking for homework answers. We don't do tutoring on the chat room, since DALnet isn't for commercial use. That said, you might want to disconnect DALnet's #science from this website and set up a chat room for tutoring. Might be a good income stream for you.
User avatar
kudayta
Active Member
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ


Re: I just bought this site

Postby kudayta on March 28th, 2018, 10:29 am 

Also, if this is an April Fools joke, it's both funny and well executed.
User avatar
kudayta
Active Member
 
Posts: 1246
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Location: Phoenix, AZ


Re: I just bought this site

Postby jocular on March 28th, 2018, 12:09 pm 

kudayta » March 28th, 2018, 10:29 am wrote:Also, if this is an April Fools joke, it's both funny and well executed.

Sadly problems with uncommunicative owners is not that funny.

Biowizard has seemingly not been in touch about this and the "new" owner doesn't seem to be organizing any hierarchy in the running of the site.

Did you see the link I gave at the outset of this thread?

http://www.tcnoise.com/viewforum.php?f=26

My suspicion was that someone had hacked the site (the username of the OP is linked to some computer gaming site) and maybe locked out the owner....

Presents for posts ,what a laugh!
jocular
Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: 29 Feb 2016


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 28th, 2018, 12:15 pm 

kudayta » March 28th, 2018, 7:29 am wrote:Also, if this is an April Fools joke, it's both funny and well executed.


And early. :-)

BioWizard has been in touch. Everything's okay. There were some later posts in this thread that covered that pretty well. I think some signal got lost in the white noise. Hierarchy, such as it is, won't change, and Zetreque and I (recently restored to admin duties after a relaxing break) will continue to look after day-to-day chores. Other mods will continue to moderate. In moderation, of course. Or not.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby jocular on March 28th, 2018, 12:18 pm 

Braininvat » March 28th, 2018, 12:15 pm wrote:
kudayta » March 28th, 2018, 7:29 am wrote:Also, if this is an April Fools joke, it's both funny and well executed.


And early. :-)

BioWizard has been in touch. Everything's okay. There were some later posts in this thread that covered that pretty well. I think some signal got lost in the white noise. Hierarchy, such as it is, won't change, and Zetreque and I (recently restored to admin duties after a relaxing break) will continue to look after day-to-day chores.

OK I stand corrected.
jocular
Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: 29 Feb 2016


Re: I just bought this site

Postby Braininvat on March 28th, 2018, 12:20 pm 

You'll have to toe the line, if you want the free toaster and set of Tweety Bird drinking glasses.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6227
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: I just bought this site

Postby jocular on March 28th, 2018, 12:22 pm 

Braininvat » March 28th, 2018, 12:20 pm wrote:You'll have to toe the line, if you want the free toaster and set of Tweety Bird drinking glasses.

I am feeling shifty already.
jocular
Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: 29 Feb 2016


PreviousNext

Return to News Discussion Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests