Palestinian thread

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Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 16th, 2018, 12:22 pm 

Braininvat » May 16th, 2018, 2:55 pm wrote:And the bloody puddles on the Gaza border may also have put off those picky folks in Stockholm.


I have covered the Israel occupation of Palestine since 2012, and this not the only time Israel has meted out wholesale slaughter. I am a member of the BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) campaign and have a facebook campaign too. I report and analyse mostly on Twitter (@LJ_Brodigan1). I get quite exasperated by the international community supporting an illegal war on civilians. No photos I've seen shown any weapons carried by any protesters who actually have a legitimate claim to their own land.

Why does "illegal" occupation and "illegal weapons" have a silent "illegal" and is supported by $10 million US tax dollars a day?

While Hamas is fighting ISIS with Syria, Israel has been proven to be supplying ISIS with armaments. Why do you think that ISIS didn't attack Israel when in the occupied Golan Heights, and apologised for firing rockets at Syrian forces on Syrian land occupied by Israel?

The fact is that ISIS is attacking Israels' enemies. They are also desperate to foment war between Iran and the USA who is basically Israels proxy.

Hamas have said they will accept the 1968 borders since Yassr Arafat was the head of the PLO. Even the MOSSAD agree Hamas is not an existential problem. But Hezbollah is, and is an Iranian proxy. I ought to start a new thread on all this but...https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ma ... ndemnation
I can evidence all of this, it's all in my timeline.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Braininvat on May 16th, 2018, 12:36 pm 

Our support of a Far Right militant regime in Israel is dismaying. The people of Gaza are essentially being held in a prison camp, in vile living conditions. The murder of unarmed civilians (I'm sorry, but throwing rocks does not demand a lethal response) is an ongoing war crime. I'm glad the international community is now paying more attention, after the latest round of slaughter.

Basically, you have people who were kicked out of their villages, their olive groves razed, and then shoved onto a narrow strip of land about one third the area of Rhode Island. They are not even permitted to leave, if they find living conditions intolerable. This is cruelty institutionalized. Israel is no longer a civilized nation.

In the U.S., this sort of treatment was meted out to indigenous peoples, and is now generally considered to be a source of profound national guilt and shame. So why do we look the other way when it happens in Palestine?
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 16th, 2018, 1:07 pm 

Thanks Brainy, I think I ought to just ought to differentiate a couple of things.

Semite: A Jew or Arab indigenous to the region which was entirely Palestinian until the Brits partitioned it in 1948.

Zionist: Zionism is a supremacist cult and has no religious connection to Judaism. Anyone of any religion can be a Zionist.

The Brits abandoned Palestine in 1948 due to intense Zionist terrorism. Many British troops were murdered.

The Israelis then conducted a programme of extermination on the Palestinians called the Nakba.

Zionists engage in what is called the Hasbara, which is a campaign of disinformation and the bankrolling of foreign diplomats and ministers to show Israel in a good light.

Their internal security is operated by their internal secret service Shin Bet.
External security is conducted by The Mossad, which has the dubious accolade as the worlds' most lethal secret service. It has conducted operations in over 120 foreign states.

Hamas/PLO are paramilitaries and activists created as a foil to Israeli aggression.

Israel allows only 4 hours of electricity a day. On a good day.

Israel diverts fresh water from Palestine to Israel, and allows the Palestinians only dirty polluted water.

Jerusalem has been the capital of Palestine for over 2,000 years. Donald Trump just gifted it to Israel.

I better pause there, I could probably write a whole book on it!
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 16th, 2018, 4:46 pm 

This critical declaration is the root of all the strife in Palestine that we see today..

The British also partitioned India to give Pakistan. This did not work well either with millions of dead, and India and Pakistan have fought over 40 wars for the control of Kashmir which got caught in between. Currently, India has control of the territory.

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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 17th, 2018, 7:22 am 

Basically, you have people who were kicked out of their villages, their olive groves razed, and then shoved onto a narrow strip of land about one third the area of Rhode Island. They are not even permitted to leave, if they find living conditions intolerable. This is cruelty institutionalized. Israel is no longer a civilized nation.



When it boils down to the rights, or should I say total lack of rights of the Palestinian Arabs,many of whom were either driven from their homes at gunpoint, or worse still; murdered. I cant see how the leadership of the current state of Israel could ever be considered civilized people. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine started before the state of Israel was even recognized and has continued unchecked, right up to the present.

Given the history of cruel maltreatment of the Jews, It is difficult to comprehend how they themselves can invade a country and drive the population of that country into a ghetto, where they are murdered under any pretense that can be dreamed up. (That story line seems vaguely familiar.) I know the Jews suffered terribly in countries under Nazi rule/occupation during WW2, but, the Israelis are now committing equally heinous and inhuman crimes in order to gain their own lebensraum In my book that makes them no better than the Nazis were. "Yet once again, the whole world turns it head and looks the other way !!!"

The US of A considers itself the worlds policeman, However, it appears to be more like a bent-cop, than an honest broker, when it comes to dealings involving Israel.

I may not be the most politically correct person in the world but neither am I antisemitic. However I do have a strong opinion on the equality of all men, (whatever their race, creed or religion.) If I see injustice I cant stop myself from speaking up about it.
The Palestinians have been very shoddily treated ever since Israel was created, yet are always painted as the bad guys. I don't possess a pair of the rose tinted, "I love the Israelis,(no matter what they do,)spectacles," but it seems a lot of people do wear them.

Oh well, "rant over for now." I've been awake far too long and am finding it difficult to concentrate, so its bed-time for me
Goodnight all.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Forest_Dump on May 17th, 2018, 7:45 am 

Ditto and well said. But I have to admit I tend to be biased towards native people, indigenous rights, etc., and even if you go with religious myths the Palestinians were there before Moses arrived from the desert.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 17th, 2018, 12:32 pm 

I feel much the same. It's nothing to do with religion, it's to do with their psychotic behaviour. At the moment, they're goading Iran into attacking them so the US will attack Iran for them.
If the Israelis lived within their borders, peacefully, and adopted internationally accepted norns, the PLO said they would agree and Hamas would have no reason to exist anymore. They could have peace but war is profitable. Their main export is arms.
The US government is getting a lot of money from AIPAC (Zionist lobbyists), and Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary is a Zionist. It's not that surprising nothing is done.
It's a very unhappy situation IMO. If the international community put a stop to it, it would make the world a much safer place.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 17th, 2018, 3:17 pm 

Following a conversation I had with a Jewish Israeli while I was vacationing in Thailand two weeks ago, then another with an orthodox Jew while In London UK, just last week. I discovered that both were discontent about the way the Zionist Israelis were treating the Palestinians. I must admit that two individuals doesn't amount to much of a control group, but they both said that there are many other Israelis who are unhappy about the way their government treats Palestinians. Apparently any Jew that speaks out against the injustices or shows sympathy toward Palestinians regarding the way they are treated, is branded a self hater. I don't think that Israelis are inherently bad people, but the same cannot be said about the leaders of their regime, which encourages its citizens to treat palestinians with utter contempt. What a shame so many people simply follow their leaders like sheep.

Thank you Event Horizon for making me aware of the BDS campaign I have very strong opinions on this subject, I didn't realize there were so many more like minded souls. "I will certainly be joining the campaign !" This is a story that needs to be headline news, rather than being swept under the carpet.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby doogles on May 17th, 2018, 5:16 pm 

Thank you for starting this thread Event Horizon.

It could be enlightening to me. I have only one friend who is a descendent of an Israeli, and he always evades the question when I ask him what actually happened to the people who were occupying what is now Israel, after the United Nations determined that the region should be taken over by Israelis in 1948.

You did not mention the role of the United Nations in your OP. Did you have a reason for that?

You mention ISIS. When they first appeared some years back, they were referred to as ISIL, which I believed represented Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Isn't the Levant the eastern Mediterranean countries which include Israel? So I was surprised to her that ISIS was acting in the interests of Israel. I've been thinking that they wished to take it over as part of their Islamic State.

A couple of years ago, as part of a thread here about a "letter from the Ayatollah Khomeny to the young people of western countries", I did some research and discovered that although Israelis had been credited with killing 38,000 Muslims since 1948, Muslims themselves were credited with having killed 11,000,000 of their own religion during the same period. I could find the source if anyone wants it. I used this as evidence at the time that Islam was stretching the point when it claims to be a "Way of Peace".

EH, I'm seriously naive about events in that part of the world. Please accept what I've asked here as being in the spirit of objective inquiry.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 17th, 2018, 6:12 pm 

I omitted the UN in the interests of brevity. It's issued 65 or more resolutions against Israel, and Nothing is ever done. The US and Israel forced the UN to withdraw a declaration that Israel is an apartheid racist state. I read it. Iraq only broke a couple of UN resolutions and got pummeled. Double standards?
Regional fighting by ISIS, the FSA, SAA, Hamas, PKK, Russia, America, Britain, France and a host of militias all on the battlefield next door and problems with Iran and its proxies too, Israel is experiencing many challenges. Slaughtering Palestinians isn't gonna solve their problems,
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby doogles on May 18th, 2018, 2:15 am 

EH, Thank you for the partial response. I'm still curious about ISIL and it's connotations about Israel being overtaken by Islam as part of the Levant. As I said, I'm naïve about this Israeli/Palestinian problem.

I had a look at this site on Wikipedia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... ing_Israel .

As an outsider, my reading of the following suggests that either Israel is a genuine problem on an international scale to have so many resolutions moved against it, or else they are being harassed by the equivalent of vexatious litigants. I have an open mind. Can you comment on this report?

"The following is a list of United Nations resolutions concerning Israel. As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by United Nations Human Rights Council. Since its creation in 2006—the Council had resolved almost more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the Council, not counting those under Agenda Item 10 (countries requiring technical assistance).[1] From 1967 to 1989 the UN Security Council adopted 131 resolutions directly addressing the Arab–Israeli conflict. In early Security Council practice, resolutions did not directly invoke Chapter VII. They made an explicit determination of a threat, breach of the peace, or act of aggression, and ordered an action in accordance with Article 39 or 40. Resolution 54 determined that a threat to peace existed within the meaning of Article 39 of the Charter, reiterated the need for a truce, and ordered a cease-fire pursuant to Article 40 of the Charter. Although the phrase "Acting under Chapter VII" was never mentioned as the basis for the action taken, the chapter's authority was being used.[2]
The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a number of resolutions saying that the strategic relationship with the United States encourages Israel to pursue aggressive and expansionist policies and practices.[3] The 9th Emergency Session of the General Assembly was convened at the request of the Security Council when the United States blocked efforts to adopt sanctions against Israel.[4] The United States responded to the frequent criticism from UN organs by adopting the Negroponte doctrine of opposing any Security Council resolutions criticizing Israel that did not also denounce Palestinian militant activity."


I looked up the following Negroponte doctrine, and it appeared to be a fair statement. What am I missing?

"On July 26, 2002, John Negroponte, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations, stated (during a closed meeting of the UN Security Council) that the United States will oppose Security Council resolutions concerning the Israeli–Palestinian conflict that condemn Israel without also condemning terrorist groups. This became known as the Negroponte Doctrine, and has been viewed by officials in the United States as a counterweight to the frequent resolutions denouncing Israel that are passed by the UN General Assembly.
Widely reported summaries of Negroponte's statement (an official transcript of these closed-session remarks does not appear to have been released) have stated that for any resolution to go forward, the United States, which has a veto in the 15-nation council, would expect it to have the following four elements:
• A strong and explicit condemnation of all terrorism and incitement to terrorism;
• A condemnation by name of the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, Islamic Jihad and Hamas, groups that have claimed responsibility for suicide attacks on Israel;
• An appeal to all parties for a political settlement of the crisis;
• A demand for improvement of the security situation as a condition for any call for a withdrawal of Israeli armed forces to positions they held before the September 2000 start of the Second intifada.[1]"
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 18th, 2018, 5:29 am 

I looked up the following Negroponte doctrine, and it appeared to be a fair statement. What am I missing?


You are overlooking the fact that Israel has a huge modern army and air-force, which they are not shy about using on the Palestinians who have no means of defense. The use of sticks and stones, plus crude home-made weaponry by Palestinians, who are objecting to being dispossessed,as the the Israelis steal their homes, is not much of a threat to Israel. Neither is the death of a camel, or goat, in some remote field in Israel, due to a Palestinian home-made-rocket attack, it certainly doesn't justify the deaths of women and children during the retaliatory bombing of the Gaza ghetto... The Palestinians are in a weak position,from which they have absolutely no chance of entering into fair negotiations with the Israelis. The whole situation is completely one sided. That is what you are missing!
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby doogles on May 18th, 2018, 7:02 am 

I'd still like an answer about ISIL that I asked in two previous posts if someone could enlighten me.

My question above Curiosity was whether the Negroponte doctrine was fair at the UN agenda level, because in its own right, it did appear to be so to me.

Your response says that the balance of military power between the two nations is not fair and that the Israelis are guilty of criminal use of force. That may be so and in its own right, I can understand the reaction by the rest of the 'civilised' world.

But I found this overall history of the conflicts since 1948 absolutely disgraceful and abhorrent from both sides. I do like to hear ALL sides of an issue -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict -- Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. I hope you have a glance at it.

Because of the support that the USA has given Israel, it would be refreshing to hear them express condemnation on any occasion they believe that Israel has crossed the line of War Crimes, and it would be equally refreshing to hear condemnation of the local Arab nations every time they indulge in terrorist activities of the types itemised constantly in the above-listed website.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Forest_Dump on May 18th, 2018, 7:52 am 

Doodles

In reference to your question, are you aware of the major division between Shi'ites and Sunnis? They get along like protestants and catholics in Ireland. Iran is primarily Shi'ite and the Taliban and al Queda are also. Iraq under Sadam was Sunni and ISIS grew out of his supporters. So those two extremist sides hate each other more than anything so both were willing and able to make all kinds of strange alliances in order to attack the other. In short, much of the Taliban and al Quida, etc., simply went quiet during the conflict with ISIS and got aid and arms etc to help defeat ISIS. I think a lot of the confusion and ignorance in the US stems from long term cuts in international diplomacy, human intelligence assets in the CIA, etc., and lack of communication and education of people. It has long been pointed out that due to cuts, often the best information the White House gets is from CNN (or now Briebart I suppose) or other governments like Israel but we can hardly expect them to try to be objective.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby toucana on May 18th, 2018, 9:15 am 

Forest_Dump » Fri May 18, 2018 12:52 pm wrote:Doodles

Iran is primarily Shi'ite and the Taliban and al Queda are also.

No. The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان‎ ṭālibān "students"), are a Sunni Islamic fundamentalist movement, not a Shi’ite one. They derive many of their core beliefs from the extreme Wahhabi (Arabic: الوهابية‎, al-Wahhābiya ) movement that originated in the Najd district of Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabi were named after an austere and extremely conservative religious reformer called Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703–1792).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

The Taliban and ISIS both belong to what is known as the Salafist tendency in Islam, specifically the jihadist wing of Salafism which rejects all forms of bid’ah (بدعة‎; ) or ‘innovation’ in religious doctrine, and seeks to return to the purity of the first three generations of Islamic scholarship and teaching that followed immediately after the lifetime of the the prophet. Salafism (السلف الصالح as-Salaf as-Ṣāliḥ) is associated with Egypt and with the Sunni tradition, not the Shi’ite one which is mainly found in Iran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Al-Qaeda are also a militant Sunni movement with close connections to the Wahhabi traditions of Saudi Arabia. The founder Osama Bin-Laden was born there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 18th, 2018, 6:29 pm 

IS have various pockets all over the place. Even Pakistan and Afghanistan. ISIL stood for IS in Libya. ISIS is the Syrian contingent. They came to force in a major way when Iraqi soldiers fled leaving masses of American kit behind. They all belong to a caliphate, are nihilistic and determined. Fortunately for Israel, IS leaving it alone, and captured stocks of arms from ISIS include Israeli weapons and munitions. If I find the photos I'll post a link.

https://t.co/qT8jgYJS5k
https://t.co/JrAND2JBgx

For Daesh read ISIS
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 18th, 2018, 8:46 pm 

Although it is legitimate to criticize the Israeli state, I'm anxious this does not become an Israel-bashing thread. I sometimes annoy zionist trolls by saying Israel is just a separatist region of Palestine, or posting maps of the region from biblical times, but no-one asks for them to troll me. People get very sensitive about this sort of discussion.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby doogles on May 18th, 2018, 10:43 pm 

Thanks for those comments on ISIL EH.

You've helped me rationalise my own understanding of the acronym. I note where you interpreted the 'L' as Libya. When I first saw 'ISIL', my check revealed that it represented the term 'Levant', which in old terms, represents the eastern Mediterranean States, including Israel.

I checked here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_S ... the_Levant , which states that "The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, ...)"

It adds that "Like "Anatolia" or "Orient," "Levant" refers to the area of the rising of the sun, from the perspective of the western Mediterranean. The Levant is the eastern Mediterranean area now covered by Israel, Lebanon, part of Syria, and western Jordan."

It goes on to say that there are variations in the meaning of 'Levant' these days and even the 'L' in ISIL.

I just couldn't get my head around one of your statements that some of ISIS' aims suited Israel, if Israel was on the list of areas they wished to usurp as an Islamic State. Apparently the modern interpretation of 'Levant' does not include Israel.

Like you, I would not like this thread to indulge in either Israeli- or Palestinian-bashing, but the list of clashes in the link I provided in my last post, suggests that the hostilities have become entrenched as generational.

It's a sad state if affairs and it's hard to believe that our species is still attempting to solve some problems with violence and bloodshed in the 21st century.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 18th, 2018, 11:18 pm 

Obviously when things develop that should be noted, we ought to make sure we can qualify it with supporting articles, rulings or reportage wherever possible.

I have an opinion that Israel is like a terribly abused child that has grown into an abuser, but can't see through the denial. It needs help.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby toucana on May 19th, 2018, 4:43 am 

The second S of the acronym ISIS came from the Arabic word al-Sham (الشَّام) which was used as an imprecise epithet for the ‘Levant’ or ‘Greater Syria’: it’s also the traditional Arabic name for Damascus (Greek - Δαμασκός ) the capital city of Syria.

The long-form version of the group’s name adopted in 2013 was ad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah fī 'l-ʿIrāq wa-sh-Shām (الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام‎) usually translated as ‘Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham’. At first many people referred to the group by an Arabic acronym of this name - Daish (داعش‎) , or Daesh - but this happens to resemble other Arabic words Daes ( ‘one who crushes something underfoot’) and Dāhis (‘one who sows discord’). The group regarded the use of this acronym as derogatory and and declared its use punishable by flogging or cutting out the tongue.

The values of ISIS are strongly opposed to those of Zionism and the very existence of Israel itself, but the leaders of ISIS regard the destruction of their own critics and opponents within the Islamic world as a greater priority. They are much more concerned with destroying what they regard as heterodox and heretical forms of Islam such as the Yazidi and Alawi communities, than in attacking Israel.

The governing party within Syria for many years has been led by the Assad family who are members of the Alawi sect rather than orthodox Sunni muslims. The Alawi are a somewhat mysterious religious group whose doctrines align to some degree with those of Shi’ite muslims, which is why the revolutionary government of Iran has supported the Assad regime so strongly against the Salafist Sunni insurgency led by ISIS.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby doogles on May 19th, 2018, 5:46 pm 

Thanks Toucana.

That has reinforced the information I gleaned from this site yesterday -- http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Ab ... ain.3.aspx .

And you have added to my understanding of the constant violence that seems to be a part of life in the Middle East.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 19th, 2018, 5:49 pm 

I've covered most of the recent wars and..um..conflicts in the ME and around the world, including Israels 51 day war on Gaza. But the battlefield in Syria is one of the most hellish complicated wars I've ever seen.
Take a few 1st world states, a dash of Daesh, Syrian government troops, Hezbollah and Hamas. The Free Syrian Army, The YPG and Peshmerga. Give it a few minutes on hot and sprinkle with hundreds and thousands of local militias, Leave to foment. Garnish with Israel.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 19th, 2018, 7:59 pm 

Things like this don't help. I did say syria was an unholy mess. It's very hard to keep track of it all.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/ji ... nt=English
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 24th, 2018, 6:27 am 

Why does "illegal" occupation and "illegal weapons" have a silent "illegal" and is supported by $10 million US tax dollars a day?


The answer is quite simple... "Because the economy of the US would be in big trouble without the Petro-dollar... Saddam threatened to withdraw from the Petro-Dollar, as did Gadaffi, which ultimately resulted in both their deaths, (courtesy of the American department of dirty tricks.) Bashar al Assad would also be dead if the Russians had not been assisting and giving him guidance.

If all the Arab nations got together and decided to sell their oil for a different currency the value of the dollar would plummet and it would probably lose its status as the worlds reserve currency "Ouch that would hurt!"

The unconditional support offered to Israel, means that if the US can provoke the Arabs into attacking Israel the US could then use the rescue of their ally as an excuse to militarily defeat the Arab regimes and install pro US puppet governments in their place. this would ultimately save the Petro-Dollar

The attempted demonising of Iran by Trump, is blatant warmongering, But fortunately he isn't clever enough to deceive the rest of the world, who can see exactly what he is trying to do.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Sivad on May 25th, 2018, 6:14 am 

What a shit show. It's that wingnut Israeli government, they need to get rid of those hardliners. It's awful what they're doing to the Palestinians, but I still don't see how a one state deal would be viable? The Israelis would be done for. Israel is the one free republic in that entire region. If the populations are integrated the country will go extreme Islamist pretty quick. It seems like an impossible situation with no good solutions, but still, we can't condone civilian massacres. It's just an ugly clusterfuck I guess.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 26th, 2018, 5:00 am 

I don't think there is any kind of quick fix for the conflict. The Israelis want the whole of Palestine and are intent on slowly but surely stealing it. The Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations mostly don't accept the existence of Israel and would have exterminated the Zionists by now if it wasn't for for the US support of the Israeli state.
Giving the Jews a homeland, seemed a good idea at the time, but they were supposed to live alongside the indigenous Palestinians, not systematically ethnically cleanse,murder/displace them.

The US regime should come clean about why they wont criticise Israel, no matter what illegal acts or atrocities Israel commits. The US just wants to sustain the Petro-Dollar and doesn't care how many Arabs/Jews have to die in order for that to happen.

The Arab states getting their act together and uniting would be good for the Arabs and the rest of the world, but the US has so alienated itself from most of the Arab states that it would be the kiss of death for the Petro-Dollar.

The US currently seems quite content to just keep on instigating strife in the middle east. However I think the Arabs are (With Russian counselling.) finally seeing the "big" picture and are beginning to wise up.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 26th, 2018, 10:53 pm 

Back in time, we had a mandate to govern and then partition Palestine. Then the Nakba happened, the Israelis were highly nationalistic and attacked the British, and the British withdrew under a hail of Bullets.
People felt very badly for the Jews, and we promised them a homeland to incentivise them to assist in the fight against Hitler and his Nazis in WWII.
I am happier thinking that Israel is a separatist province of Palestine. Palestine is more than a state really, it's a region.
The Hasbara is the Zionist promotion and disinformation campaign of Israel. They even have a Wiki for Jews that makes no mention of Palestine, so I hear. They are actively trying to take all the land and erase Palestinian history, among other things. It is rather like Hitlers' attempt to expunge all the Jews and erase their history and culture.
These particular Zionists, Jewish or not, I refer to as ZioNazis.
The Jews have a deep terror of being wiped out over the last few thousand years. But it's this paranoia that might be what gets them killed.
I am worried by them, and I'm worried for them. It's complex.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 27th, 2018, 7:05 am 

I am worried by them, and I'm worried for them. It's complex.


I share your sentiments... The majority of Jewish people are decent peace loving people,who I wish no ill. Unfortunately the silent majority of any nation, seldom get to be the ones formulating the political/military direction of their nation.

Hitler was not a good person... But, that doesn't equate to... "No Germans are good people", any more than Netanyahu inciting the IDF to commit atrocities means all Israelis are evil.

In fact I am particularly impressed by the conduct of the orthodox Jews who have adopted an extremely strong anti Zionist stance. The orthodox Jews among others condemn the policy of ethnic cleansing and theft of property which is being perpetrated by the Zionist regime in Palestine/Israel. What a shame the voices of these decent people is stifled by those who hold the reins of power.

Referring to the situation as complex, is more than just a slight understatement... I wouldn't like to predict the ultimate outcome of this ongoing saga, I can't however see it ending well for any of the parties concerned.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby Event Horizon on May 27th, 2018, 10:51 am 

IMO, the best thing would be for the UN to send in a force to protect Jews from Arabs and Vice versa. Then The Jews could live within their own borders in relative safety, and likewise the Arabs. But unfortunately the US has a UN veto, and all sanctions have been vetoed. But a buffer-zone would protect many lives from the incidental slaughter the IDF like to engage in, and Israel from knifemen.
I even had a discussion with the MOSSAD, and they conceded that Hamas were not an existential threat to Israel. I said Hezbollah was a serious threat operating out of Lebanon, and the Mossad agreed with that too. It just doesn't play to their "We are always the victim" narrative, and it would diminish their excuse to sweep the Arabs from Palestine.
One curious thing is I am reading a book on the *th army in the ME, and Palestine was often mentioned. Israel had yet to exist. The Zionists detest this history even though I'm told the Torah Prohibits an Israeli state.
If ever there was a can of worms, these problems consist of a bucket full.
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Re: Palestinian thread

Postby curiosity on May 27th, 2018, 5:15 pm 

UN troops keeping the peace in the middle east ? The US dare not countenance that. Hell if it actually worked there could be peace in the whole region.
If the US were to stop meddling in the affairs of the Arab world, the Arabs might even learn to live in harmony with each other.
That wouldn't bode well for the continued existence of the Petro-dollar though. So, the US regime will resist it ever actually happening.

Manipulating a regime change in a single country isn't easy...
So manipulating simultaneous regime change in a whole group, such as the Arab nations, would be almost impossible, even for the US, especially if all the nations concerned are on good terms and are aware of the bigger picture.
Divide and conquer only works if your opponents don't understand the overall game plan.

After all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, regarding the suspected meddling by the Russians, in the American election, I could hardly believe hearing the US spokesman openly bragging that the US had been successful in getting Libya's Col Gadaffi murdered and that Korea's Kim Jong Un would likely suffer the same fate, if he doesn't do as the US demands, ("Now That's what I call meddling!!!")
Is the right of national sovereignty and the peoples right to self determination, reserved exclusively for Americans, or are all the worlds nations entitled to those rights?
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