"Suffer The Little Children .."

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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 20th, 2018, 3:08 pm 

SciameriKen wrote:I doubt it -- I'd say this is the Trump supporters fault to the extent that they have created an environment where Trump felt this action was a good idea. His base needs to be vocal when it's not or else things can spiral quickly.

You seem to be basing your view on the (backwards) assumption that Trump is somehow a 'puppet' to his fans/supporters".

I think it more likely that Trump writes his own script (pulls his own strings), and because of this, has generated a large fan base.

With your logic, then should we also blame the Cavs fans for LeBron's inability to win a NBA championship?

Just because Trump has fans/supporters does not necessarily mean that these fans/supporters control (or are responsible for) Trump's actions.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby SciameriKen on June 20th, 2018, 4:43 pm 

RJG » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:08 pm wrote:
SciameriKen wrote:I doubt it -- I'd say this is the Trump supporters fault to the extent that they have created an environment where Trump felt this action was a good idea. His base needs to be vocal when it's not or else things can spiral quickly.

You seem to be basing your view on the (backwards) assumption that Trump is somehow a 'puppet' to his fans/supporters".

I think it more likely that Trump writes his own script (pulls his own strings), and because of this, has generated a large fan base.

With your logic, then should we also blame the Cavs fans for LeBron's inability to win a NBA championship?

Just because Trump has fans/supporters does not necessarily mean that these fans/supporters control (or are responsible for) Trump's actions.


I wouldn't say he is a puppet -- I am saying the relationship is cyclical - The base wants things - Trump Acts - The base responds - Trump acts on the response - and so on. Its a general rule - but almost all of Trump's actions and positions are aligned with his base. Additionally, Trump does things that he thinks his base wants such as antagonizing the NFL about the anthem. Trump does not necessarily have to believe in the actions he is undertaking - for example, witness testimony from Jerry Jones, Cowboys Owner, seems to indicate that Trump is purely antagonizing the NFL because it was a "lifting" issue - meaning its good for his poll numbers with his base.

Trump is a weather vane and the strongest wind is his base. Does it mean the base is in absolute control? No - but I'd say it is the case 95% of the time.

I have no clue where you are going with the Lebron analogy -- I'll just say they lost because Lebron, though probably the best player ever, is a horrible general manager.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 20th, 2018, 4:49 pm 

If they stopped applauding, he'd stop preforming.
It's not the political support he craves; it's the spotlight.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 20th, 2018, 5:57 pm 

SciameriKen wrote:Trump is a weather vane and the strongest wind is his base.

Again, I think this is just your perception/opinion of the situation, which I (respectfully) think is incorrect.


SciameriKen wrote:Does it mean the base is in absolute control? No - but I'd say it is the case 95% of the time.

And from my perception/opinion, I would say the base influences Trump maybe 5-10% at most. As it seems that Trump is not afraid to buck anyone, including those who are part of his supposed base. Many republicans don't even support him, but yet Trump seemingly could care less. He seems to be the least "pandering" president we have had in quite awhile.


SciameriKen wrote:I have no clue where you are going with the Lebron analogy -- I'll just say they lost because Lebron, though probably the best player ever, is a horrible general manager.

We finally agree on something! :-)


Serpent wrote:If they stopped applauding, he'd stop preforming.
It's not the political support he craves; it's the spotlight.

Well, he is a unique bird, that is for sure. At times he seemingly needs the attention/adulation, but then at other times, he seems to care less how he is perceived. For example, he seems to have very little concern or care about, looking and talking 'presidential'.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 20th, 2018, 6:58 pm 

As North Korea has somehow wandered into this thread, it might be worth noting that the wheels look like they are about fall off this "historic agreement” in no uncertain manner.

Reuters reported yesterday that White House deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin who led the US advance team for President Trump’s summit with Kim Jong-un in Singapore has abruptly resigned.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-hagin/white-house-deputy-chief-of-staff-resigning-white-house-officials-idUSKBN1JF30Z

Hagin, 62, is a veteran of Republican presidencies, having had roles in the administrations of Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush. He has been one of the most experienced advisers at the Trump White House.

He also organized Trump’s first foreign trip to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Belgium and Italy a year ago, and his tour of Asia last November. In spite of WH attempts to suggest otherwise, this was not a scheduled departure.

Meanwhile NBC are reporting on Twitter:
“Secretary of State Mike Pompeo abruptly canceled a planned Wednesday briefing for all U.S. senators on a deal with North Korea that President Donald Trump has hailed as a breakthrough — even while the details remain vague.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews

Something has gone very wrong here. There doesn’t appear to be anyone in the Trump administration who knows what Trump and Kim verbally agreed to. Now the Deputy who helped make the summit happen is suddenly quitting, and the big briefing about the meeting has suddenly been canceled.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 20th, 2018, 8:06 pm 

Touc, are you rooting for things to go wrong??
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 20th, 2018, 9:16 pm 

RJG » June 20th, 2018, 7:06 pm wrote:Touc, are you rooting for things to go wrong??

He's reporting, as he always does, reliably and promptly.
His personal feelings have never, afaik, affected the outcome of the events he reports.


What were you expecting from those talks?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 21st, 2018, 2:43 am 



MSNBC anchor Rachel Maddow struggling to read an AP report about 'Tender Age' concentration camps for babies in Texas.



Corey Lewandowski derisively saying 'Womp Womp' about a 10 y/o girl with Downs syndrome on Fox News.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby BadgerJelly on June 21st, 2018, 4:01 am 

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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby SciameriKen on June 21st, 2018, 9:52 am 

RJG » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:57 pm wrote:
SciameriKen wrote:Trump is a weather vane and the strongest wind is his base.

Again, I think this is just your perception/opinion of the situation, which I (respectfully) think is incorrect.

SciameriKen wrote:Does it mean the base is in absolute control? No - but I'd say it is the case 95% of the time.

And from my perception/opinion, I would say the base influences Trump maybe 5-10% at most. As it seems that Trump is not afraid to buck anyone, including those who are part of his supposed base. Many republicans don't even support him, but yet Trump seemingly could care less. He seems to be the least "pandering" president we have had in quite awhile.


The difference is that my perceptions/opinions are driven by facts. All republicans are not his base - therefore it is not an argument to say Trump could care less about them. What is your rationale for your line of reasoning?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 21st, 2018, 10:29 am 

"Republicans fall in line...."
... or else they're FYERRED!!! At the very least, ousted, ostracized, extirpated from their tribe. They're a patriarchal, authoritarian, strictly hierarchical organization. Even Trump's most bitter rivals came around to bend a knee at his coronation.
But now, they're falling away again: he's broken too many taboos. This latest attack on the Republicans' most central shibboleth - The Family - may have been that last one too many.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 21st, 2018, 11:37 am 

SciameriKen wrote:The difference is that my perceptions/opinions are driven by facts.

What "facts"? ...your facts are assumptions, and your logic is flawed.

Your "fact" that 95% of Trump supporters/fans control Trump's actions is just pure biased speculation; pure "assumption".

And your "logic" is not rational. You are attempting to (falsely) equate 'admiration' with 'causation'.You want to somehow blame (and hold responsible) Trump fan/supporters as the cause of Trump's actions. 'Admiration' and 'causation' are NOT the same thing. Your attempt to spin them as the same is seemingly disingenuous (...or maybe just unintentionally 'emotionally' driven).

Using your flawed logic, then the town of Cleveland should punish/blame the fans/supporters (of LeBron) because of LeBron's actions (failure to bring home a trophy).

Being a fan/supporter of X does NOT logically equate to 'causation' of X. And therefore casting blame on said fan/supporter (of X) is wholly 'irrational'.


SciameriKen wrote:What is your rationale for your line of reasoning?

My rationale is that your reasoning is not based on sound logic.

No offense, but maybe your reasoning is based on your emotional (indoctrinated) 'dislike' of Trump and his fans/supporters??? (...'honesty' is needed to answer this one, ...put the emotion aside for a moment to see if this is true).
Last edited by RJG on June 21st, 2018, 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 21st, 2018, 12:14 pm 

Scoreboard today:

From Toronto Star this morning:

WASHINGTON—Acting to silence a fierce domestic and international outcry over his separation of children and parents at the border, U.S. President Donald Trump issued an order Wednesday to detain families together — but indefinitely.

Trump’s push for the extended detention of children generated a fresh round of denunciation. The vague language of the order made it unclear how he would actually proceed. And an administration official told the New York Times that they would not make any effort to immediately reunite the 2,000-plus families that have already been separated.

Still, the decision was a significant reversal from a president who loathes to be seen backing down, especially on illegal immigration, and who had repeatedly lied that he was powerless to end the separations if Congress did not pass a new law.

“We’re going to have strong, very strong borders, but we’re going to keep the families together. I didn’t like the sight or the feeling of families being separated,” Trump said upon signing the order.

Trump relented under pressure from not only Democrats but from Republicans, who were being inundated with outraged phone calls and had grown worried about potential harm to their midterm campaigns.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby SciameriKen on June 21st, 2018, 1:50 pm 

RJG » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:37 pm wrote:
SciameriKen wrote:What is your rationale for your line of reasoning?

My rationale is that your reasoning is not based on sound logic.

No offense, but maybe your reasoning is based on your emotional (indoctrinated) 'dislike' of Trump and his fans/supporters??? (...'honesty' is needed to answer this one, ...put the emotion aside for a moment to see if this is true).


Do better please. Show me one example where Trump went against his base -- just to clarify what his base is since you may be confused on who we are talking about based on your previous post (and no its not all republicans) - his base is the FOX news viewer.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 21st, 2018, 2:58 pm 

SciameriKen wrote:Do better please. Show me one example where Trump went against his base -- just to clarify what his base is since you may be confused on who we are talking about based on your previous post (and no its not all republicans) - his base is the FOX news viewer.

WOW, you may not realize it, but you are exposing your bigotry here. Stereotypically lumping a group of people as the ("evil") puppet master of Trump. ...yikes!

Please tell me which one of these evil FOX viewers is "pulling Trump's strings", and giving him his marching orders? ...I bet it is that cranky neighbor dude next door, ...or maybe it is that sweet old lady that lives down the street? ...please tell me! Which one is it? I DEMAND YOU TELL ME !! ..so that I can go hang them from the highest tree! ...terrible people they are! ...yeah, yeah!

(Note: the above paragraph is sarcasm, to help Ken see the folly of his views)

Ken, your emotion (maybe some hate/bigotry?) is clouding your ability to see the illogic of your own position. -- FOX viewers don't control Trump anymore than Lebron viewers control LeBron.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby SciameriKen on June 21st, 2018, 3:22 pm 

You can't do it can you? Just one example?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 21st, 2018, 4:09 pm 

SciameriKen wrote:Show me one example where Trump went against his base… ...You can't do it can you? Just one example?

Seriously? ...okay, if you wish, I'll humor you with one.

1. Just yesterday, Trump signed an "executive order" against my very wishes. How rude! Especially since I specifically told him to force the Dems and Repubs to work together to 'pass a law' to make family separations illegal. He went against his base; me, a loyal fan/supporter.

2. During the NBA playoffs, I begged and screamed for LeBron to take the 3-pointer, but no, he decided to pass the ball to Kevin Love instead. Tsk tsk [head shaking]. He went against his base; me, a loyal fan/supporter.

I suspect you can talk to any fan/supporter of Trump (or LeBron) and they can tell you similar stories. And as much as you would like to believe otherwise, ain't none of us Trump's "puppet master".

I further suspect that you are looking for an "enemy to hate", so as to vent your emotions of Trump being president, but you can't go blame or logically justify the viewers of FOX news, or the fans/supporters of Trump as the "enemy". The real enemy is within you, the devil inside us that makes us hate.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 21st, 2018, 4:39 pm 

Jacket.jpg
FLOTUS embarking for Texas earlier today

When FLOTUS Melania Trump set off from Andrews airforce base earlier today to visit detention camps holding migrant children in McCallen Texas, she made a bold fashion statement by wearing a downmarket $39 green canvas jacket from Zara with a large white graffiti-style message scrawled prominently on the back saying I REALLY DON'T CARE, DO U ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5871221/Melania-Trump-wears-jacket-REALLY-DONT-CARE-U-visit-immigrant-children.html

When pressed to explain why the FLOTUS had been wearing such a singular fashion choice on this particular trip, her spokesperson Stephanie Grisham said
'It's a jacket. There was no hidden message.

Quite so.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby SciameriKen on June 21st, 2018, 4:48 pm 

RJG » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:09 pm wrote:
SciameriKen wrote:Show me one example where Trump went against his base… ...You can't do it can you? Just one example?

Seriously? ...okay, if you wish, I'll humor you with one.

1. Just yesterday, Trump signed an "executive order" against my very wishes. How rude! Especially since I specifically told him to force the Dems and Repubs to work together to 'pass a law' to make family separations illegal. He went against his base; me, a loyal fan/supporter.

2. During the NBA playoffs, I begged and screamed for LeBron to take the 3-pointer, but no, he decided to pass the ball to Kevin Love instead. Tsk tsk [head shaking]. He went against his base; me, a loyal fan/supporter.

I suspect you can talk to any fan/supporter of Trump (or LeBron) and they can tell you similar stories. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, ain't none of us Trump's "puppet master".

I further suspect that you are looking for an "enemy to hate", so as to vent your emotions of Trump being president, but you can't go blame or logically justify the viewers of FOX news, or the fans/supporters of Trump as the "enemy". The real enemy is within you, the devil inside us that makes us hate.


Have I displayed emotion one way or another? I don't recall using all caps or bolding anything or even using exclamation marks?

In any case - I'd hate to ask you for another example - but your present one doesn't count since Trump had to backtrack against the overwhelming pressuring of people who think ripping kids away from parents is a bad idea - which is basically everybody.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 21st, 2018, 6:11 pm 

SciameriKen » June 21st, 2018, 3:48 pm wrote:In any case - I'd hate to ask you for another example - but your present one doesn't count since Trump had to backtrack against the overwhelming pressuring of people who think ripping kids away from parents is a bad idea - which is basically everybody.

Psst! I'd recommend rephrasing that to read: had to backtrack in response to the overwhelming pressuring of people who think ripping kids away from parents is a bad idea - which includes his base and FOX watchers

... plus religious supporters, https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/trump-immigration-religion/index.html plus business https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/06/20/airlines-refuse-fly-immigrant-children-separated-parents/718654002/
RJG -- I specifically told him to force the Dems and Repubs to work together to 'pass a law' to make family separations illegal.

Yesterday, you seemed to think that emotional blackmail would succeed where bipartisan goodwill had failed; that ending this brutal policy would only "kick the problem down the road"
but you did not offer one single practical suggestion toward a permanent solution, other than to stop being tolerant of refugees.
Which sounds very much like Trump's own position on all three counts. Did he get it from you or did you get it from him or is this one of those feedback cycles SciameriKen mentioned?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 21st, 2018, 8:00 pm 

"I Really Don't Care Do U? "
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 21st, 2018, 8:15 pm 

"I try not to, but some things still get my goat."
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 21st, 2018, 8:23 pm 

Jacket_tweet.png

She wore it on the way back home too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WbErl_oZ1s

Shortly afterwards the Trump communication team put out the Tweet above.

Like many people, I must admit my first assumption was that the 'message' must have been a Photoshop hack. But no, apparently it was not.

Welcome to the planet Zog.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 21st, 2018, 10:05 pm 

toucana » June 21st, 2018, 7:23 pm wrote:Welcome to the planet Zog.

Zog has left the planet.
He took one look at CNN, got back into his saucer, riveted the portholes shut and blasted off.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby wolfhnd on June 21st, 2018, 10:54 pm 

If you want to understand Trump listen to Scott Adams.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 22nd, 2018, 5:44 am 

Surreal.jpg

What apparently bothered some critics was the fact the jacket in question was from *last* year's Zara collection.

They felt that FLOTUS, as a professional model, should have known better than to wear something so passé.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 22nd, 2018, 6:21 am 

There are multiple allegations, and a new lawsuit in California claiming that government contractors in Texas are forcibly injecting traumatised immigrant children in detention centres with powerful antipsychotic drugs, and doing so under the pretence that the children are being given 'vitamins'.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/20/1773819/-New-lawsuit-claims-Texas-contractor-has-been-injecting-immigrant-kids-with-antipsychotic-drugs#view-story

Forensic psychiatrist Mark. J. Mills told Reveal it was an outrage to see these drugs used in the U.S., like they once were in Russia.
“You don’t need to administer these kinds of drugs unless someone is plucking out their eyeball or some such. The facility should not use these drugs to control behavior. That’s not what antipsychotics should be used for. That’s like the old Soviet Union used to do.

CNN has a lengthy editorial detailing similar allegations:

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/21/us/undocumented-migrant-children-detention-facilities-abuse-invs/index.html
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 8:15 am 

Serpent wrote: ...but you did not offer one single practical suggestion toward a permanent solution…

Ha. Did you not read what I wrote?

The solution is for the Dems in Congress to quit the obstruction, and get back to work to fix this immigration mess.

But they refuse. Why?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 22nd, 2018, 8:23 am 

wolfhnd » June 21st, 2018, 9:54 pm wrote:If you want to understand Trump listen to Scott Adams.

Yes, that was informative. Several You Tube appearances and this Atlantic piece.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/a-cartoonists-nihilistic-defense-of-donald-trump/537297/
I'll just go take my after-breakfast clozapine now.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Forest_Dump on June 22nd, 2018, 8:28 am 

Might help to rethink what the so-called immigration mess really consists of and if it even exists. From what I have heard, a lot of the job losses have been due to technological progress. Many business owners seem to want immigrants to fill jobs locals don't want to fill. Historically, many or most of the problems in North America have been caused by European immigrants, refugees, etc., over the past 200-300 years. Any thoughts about sending theit descendents back to those countries that have since become more stable?
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