"Suffer The Little Children .."

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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 22nd, 2018, 8:36 am 

RJG » June 22nd, 2018, 7:15 am wrote:[ ...but you did not offer one single practical suggestion toward a permanent solution…]
The solution is for the Dems in Congress to quit the obstruction, and get back to work to fix this immigration mess. But they refuse. Why?

Yes, you have repeated that content-free bit of cant several times.
So, you have a strong opinion and no frickin clue.

1. Of what does the "immigration mess" consist?
2. What are its three main causes?
3. Is is it more of a mess now, than it was 10 ten or 20 years ago?
4. If so, what has changed in the interim?
5. Is there anything the US could do, in terms of foreign and/or domestic policy, in response to those recent changes?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 9:31 am 

RJG wrote:The solution is for the Dems in Congress to quit the obstruction, and get back to work to fix this immigration mess. But they refuse. Why?

Serpent wrote:Yes, you have repeated that content-free bit of cant several times.
So, you have a strong opinion and no frickin clue.

1. Of what does the "immigration mess" consist?
2. What are its three main causes?
3. Is is it more of a mess now, than it was 10 ten or 20 years ago?
4. If so, what has changed in the interim?
5. Is there anything the US could do, in terms of foreign and/or domestic policy, in response to those recent changes?

Nice 'avoidance technique' Serp, ...very snake-like! ;-) (...hence the name "Serpent"??).

So let me try again -- Why do the Dems REFUSE to go back to work to solve these problems? -- Certainly you have a "strong opinion" on everything else, but you ALWAYS AVOID answering this question? ...why is that?

Do you have a "[censored word] clue"?
Last edited by RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 9:32 am 

RJG » June 22nd, 2018, 5:15 am wrote:
Serpent wrote: ...but you did not offer one single practical suggestion toward a permanent solution…

Ha. Did you not read what I wrote?

The solution is for the Dems in Congress to quit the obstruction, and get back to work to fix this immigration mess.

But they refuse. Why?


In debate, this is called a leading question. The respondent must presume we've established that Dem party obstruction is causing the mess, to answer your "why? " But that hasn't been done, and several have presented factual material that point to other causes including an inflexible position in the WH. Since voting records and polls point towards about 38 percent of electorate favoring that inflexible position....

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... order-wall

....then wouldn't "obstruction" be a more applicable term to those trying to insist on measures that the majority doesn't want? Many in the House want a bipartisan compromise. You will need to cite evidence that the right wing base of the POTUS is also willing to compromise with what the majority of Americans want. Otherwise, the obstruction would appear to be coming from them.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 9:36 am 

Nice 'avoidance technique' Serp, ...very snake-like! (...hence the name "Serpent"??).
--.RJG

Last polite warning. Please remove ad hominem (above) from your previous post.

Do not go to feedback.

Do not attack moderator.

Just clean up your post.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 9:40 am 

Braininvat wrote:In debate, this is called a leading question. The respondent must presume we've established that Dem party obstruction is causing the mess, to answer your "why? "

Braininvat you are being (unintentionally?) misleading here with your usage of the words "causing the mess". This question is NOT about "causing" the mess, it is about "solving" the mess.

In the future, I would appreciate you re-read my actual words before twisting them to your view.


Braininvat wrote:Last polite warning. Please remove ad hominem (above) from your previous post.

Are you talking to me, or Serpent?

As my 'suspect' words are just HIS words re-quoted. It would again be HYPOCRITICAL OF YOU to threaten me, while letting the Serpent off the hook for the same exact words. ...agreed?

I added a "smiley face" to the word "snake-like" to show my FRIENDLY jab, and I censored/removed the word "frickin". Let me know if this suffices and meets your approval.

Oh, and don't forget to politely threaten the Serpent too, as you would not want to appear two-faced.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 9:48 am 

You called him a snake, and the imputation was clear. He did not call you a snake, so that quote was not from him re-quoted. You take care of you, and I'll do my job. If you don't like our forum standards then you are free to leave. End of discussion. And you fail to comply with my other post's request for factual citations. I provide poll evidence for what the majority wants. Who is obstructing the solution to that?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 9:53 am 

Again, it is not about "obstructing the solution", it is about "solving the problems". Again, -- Why do the Dems REFUSE to go back to work to SOLVE these problems?

I'm amazed by the extremes everyone goes to AVOID answering this simple question! Certainly strong opinions flow, but then dry up or run away when broached with this question. Which is at the heart of the solution!
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 10:01 am 

Still a leading question as already explained. "Why do Dems refuse to go back to work.... " presumes facts not in evidence. You still make no case for whatever form of obstruction your question presumes. Just doing my job to promote sharp and factual posts. Not answering a question because it is leading, is not avoidance. You need to establish the basis of your question.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 10:03 am 

Braininvat wrote:You called him a snake, and the imputation was clear. He did not call you a snake, so that quote was not from him re-quoted.

His name is Serpent, which is a snake. Calling him "snake-like" was a FRIENDLY jab, and a play on his name.

How about when he tells me "you have no frickin clue!" ...is this acceptable? ...but somehow my friendly jab is not?

Can I tell you (Braininvat) that "you have no frickin clue!" ?? --- without some consequences, if so then I plan to say it to you, if not, then I won't, but then I would expect you to not uphold a double standard.

Please let me know the forum policy on whether I can tell you, or someone else, that "you have no frickin clue!"
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 10:05 am 

Braininvat wrote:Still a leading question as already explained. "Why do Dems refuse to go back to work.... " presumes facts not in evidence.

False. It is obvious to all, and as clearly stated by Chuck Schumer, that the Dems will not work these issues out in congress with the Repubs, as they want Trump to take care of this himself.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 10:19 am 

Who is "all"? Seems not obvious to 60-plus percent of registered voters. You read my cited link, correct? Nor is it "obvious to all" in this thread. So, as Ken said, you'll have to do better. Nor do I see a complete quote from Sen. Schumer, provided with context.

I didn't much care about "frickin clue. " TBH, we mods let some jabs go. You both said it, and I let it go. "Snake" is okay if it's a joke, so long as the recipient of the joke agrees. Pretty simple group dynamics.

But I do need more evidence that Schumer comments equate with obstruction, or represent a true unwillingness to work on immigration ---.in order for you to back up your prior leading question. Good luck. TTYL.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Forest_Dump on June 22nd, 2018, 10:27 am 

As far as I have ever been able to see, the "Mexican border problem" has never been a problem except to a relatively small number of European immigrants who moved down to that region relatively recently and who paradoxically often depend on the cheap labour. One of the facts not in evidence is whether this is anything other than a draconian solution to a minor to nonexistent problem created as a wedge issue by Trump.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 10:40 am 

RJG wrote:It is obvious to all, and as clearly stated by Chuck Schumer, that the Dems will not work these issues out in congress with the Repubs, as they want Trump to take care of this himself.

Braininvat wrote:But I do need more evidence that Schumer comments equate with obstruction, or represent a true unwillingness to work on immigration ---.in order for you to back up your prior leading question.

How about any these:

https://www.politicususa.com/2018/06/20/schumer-rejects-congressional-solution-says-trump-must-fix-the-border-problem.html

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/393069-schumer-rejects-gop-proposal-to-address-border-crisis

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/06/19/surprise-schumer-doesnt-want-make-deal-gop-end-child-separation/

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/06/20/chuck-schumer-ends-charade-admits-dems-dont-want-legislation-they-hold-border-kids-as-hostages-646348
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 22nd, 2018, 10:53 am 

So again... Why do the Dems REFUSE to go back to work to help SOLVE these problems?

Anyone want to venture an answer/opinion to this simple question? ...or is everyone afraid to admit to the elephant in the room?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 22nd, 2018, 11:20 am 

I apologize for the "no frickin clue" comment. It was only my interpretation of RJG's repeated failure to offer any factual answers to the questions I have repeatedly posed, other than repeating the same old vacant-of-intelligible-meaning refrain:
RJG » June 22nd, 2018, 8:31 am wrote: Why do the Dems REFUSE to go back to work to solve these problems? --

In fact, I have previously answered this question: I do not know.
This is why I asked what it is the Democrats are refusing to vote on or sign or co-operate with. Perhaps if I knew what form the alleged obstruction takes, I might venture to speculate as to their reason. But RJG has declined to provide information, which led me to conclude that he has no more fc than I.

In order it to solve a problem, or mess, it seems to me self-evident that one must first identify the problem or at least describe the mess, then consider possible solutions, then estimate one's own capability for carrying out each proposed course of action, calculate the odds of success and risks of failure, and only then debate the merits of each proposed approach.

This, then, is not so much an avoidance technique as one final attempt at clarification.

[ S -- 1. Of what does the "immigration mess" consist?
2. What are its three main causes?
3. Is is it more of a mess now, than it was 10 ten or 20 years ago?
4. If so, what has changed in the interim?
5. Is there anything the US could do, in terms of foreign and/or domestic policy, in response to those recent changes?]

I have no objection to being called snake-like. I've been trying since before recorded history to get humans to use their heads for something besides butting one another. Or a football. Or a wall.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 11:29 am 

The links you (RJG) posted seemed to indicate a disagreement as to who has the immediate power to resolve the separation problem. Schumer stated that Trump had the power to resolve the crisis with an executive order. Since that is what happened (per your sources, the following day), then it is difficult to see how he was wrong or how that would be obstruction. Trump, did in fact, apply his felt-tip to an EO on Wednesday, and the majority party claims that this will resolve the separation crisis.

This is an excerpt from The Hill article you posted:

Schumer’s position immediately raised speculation over how long Democrats would stick to their position if Trump refuses to change his mind.

“Let’s hope we never get to that. Let’s hope the president does the right thing and solves the problem, which he can do. That’s the simple, easiest and most likely way this will happen,” Schumer said.


On the day after this quote, Trump backpedaled on his previous position, and signed an EO just as Schumer said he was able to do.

Given the facts I just presented, you core assertion appears to be incorrect. Are you willing to acknowledge this, based on the events following Mr. Schumer's statements?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 22nd, 2018, 11:31 am 


This was true: rescinding one executive order with another was much faster than sending a problematic bill through the legislative process. Pointing out a more efficient solution hardly counts as obstruction.
The other links appear to be more incendiary coverage of the same comments, by one Democratic senator.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 22nd, 2018, 11:42 am 

Parallel postings. Both indicating the events that followed Schumer's statement. That Trump, in fact, did have the power to change the child separation crisis with his pen. And much faster than Congress could. We already knew this, given that this is one of the major purposes of the executive order as it was set up in Article II of the Constitution and first implemented on June 8, 1789. I would invite members here who have stressed very strongly the importance of the U.S. Constitution in prior postings to start a thread on why Article II should be modified or discarded. That would be a different topic, one for Political Theory.
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Reason: fixing typos
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 22nd, 2018, 1:48 pm 

Resettlement.png
Locations where immigrant children are being held

The Washington Post along with other news sources have been compiling a map of the different locations within the USA to which immigrant children as young as six who have been seized and separated from their families are despatched by the Federal government - This version is a screenshot taken from an MSNBC newscast 'Morning Joe'.

http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/joe-gop-wh-know-something-has-gone-wrong-1261650499789?playlist=associated

It would appear that very young children who were seized at the Texas border are being transferred at random to holding centres up to 2000 miles away in places as far afield as Oregon, Washington State, Michigan, and upper New York State, making it almost impossible for their parents, or any other relief organisation, to locate and reunite them with their parents in any timely manner.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 24th, 2018, 10:00 am 

We all like to "bitch", but few of us seemingly want to "solve" these problems. So let me try to pose the question another way --

1. Are Dems sincere about helping immigrants become legal American citizens? -- please answer YES or NO

2. If the Dems REFUSE to make/change the laws to make this (legal immigration) happen, then does this make Dems 'sincere' or 'phonies'? -- please answer SINCERE or PHONIES.


"Bitching" solves nothing. "Solving" solves problems. Those that are sincere in "solving" problems are those that stop the bitching and start the solving.

Those that wish to perpetuate the bitching are those that really don't want to solve the problems.

Are the Dems "bitcher's" or "solver's"?
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 24th, 2018, 10:30 am 

Please answer YES or NO:
Can you define "the problem" you want solved by your elected representatives?
Please answer YES or NO:
Can you identify the three main causes of "the problem"?
Please answer I DON'T KNOW or I REFUSE:
Why have you repeatedly refrained form answering these questions?

Until such time as you yourself articulate a clear proposition; so long as you keep repeating the same insubstantial complaints, you may count yourself a "harper" or "carper" - either one; I'm that flexible.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 24th, 2018, 10:50 am 

Braininvat » June 22nd, 2018, 8:29 am wrote:The links you (RJG) posted seemed to indicate a disagreement as to who has the immediate power to resolve the separation problem. Schumer stated that Trump had the power to resolve the crisis with an executive order. Since that is what happened (per your sources, the following day), then it is difficult to see how he was wrong or how that would be obstruction. Trump, did in fact, apply his felt-tip to an EO on Wednesday, and the majority party claims that this will resolve the separation crisis.

This is an excerpt from The Hill article you posted:

Schumer’s position immediately raised speculation over how long Democrats would stick to their position if Trump refuses to change his mind.

“Let’s hope we never get to that. Let’s hope the president does the right thing and solves the problem, which he can do. That’s the simple, easiest and most likely way this will happen,” Schumer said.


On the day after this quote, Trump backpedaled on his previous position, and signed an EO just as Schumer said he was able to do.

Given the facts I just presented, you core assertion appears to be incorrect. Are you willing to acknowledge this, based on the events following Mr. Schumer's statements?


Am reposting this, since RJG failed to respond to the facts presented. Please see forum guidelines here...
viewtopic.php?nomobile=1&f=119&t=12180

See the section on general posting guidelines, section 3, part B...

III - When replying to a post, avoid any and all of the following:

a) Misrepresentation of evidence, out of context quotes being used to falsely represent a view for example.

b) Repeated refusal to respond to challenges to one's claims. We are a debate forum, not a soap box.

c) Off topic posts may be removed or split into new threads. Your cooperation in keeping the discussion focused and organized is greatly appreciated.

Also relevant is section 4 under Forum Etiquette.....

IV - General disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. Disruptive behaviors include the following

a) Posts deemed by the moderators to be devoid of any intelligent content.

b) Repeated refusal to cite sources or other evidence to support your claims.

c) Repeated refusal to respond to a moderators request.

d) We do not provide a medium for circular debates which have no end. If a debate has gone on a significant length of time, and the moderators feel that it's going nowhere, they are charged with refocusing the debate, or when that fails, to end it. If a thread is locked, do not start a new thread resurrecting old issues.


Please respond to the multiple previous requests for responses and for evidence to support claims.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 24th, 2018, 10:59 am 

RJG wrote:1. Are Dems sincere about helping immigrants become legal American citizens? -- please answer YES or NO

Serpent wrote:Can you define "the problem" you want solved by your elected representatives?

This (my) question is not about any specific "problem" per se ...my question refers to "sincerity in helping".

Can you not answer with a YES or NO?, ....are the Dems "sincere" or not? ...or are you afraid to admit to the big elephant in the room?

Serpent, if you cannot answer YES or NO then this question is not for you. If so, then please butt out, and keep your inflammatory rhetoric to yourself.


****

BIV, I don't respond to your "threats", thank you. If you wish to ask me a question, and if I wish to respond, then I will. If I don't, then I won't. -- no one here should put up with your BULLY TACTICS. Find another job. Take your bigotry elsewhere.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 24th, 2018, 11:22 am 

There seems to be a serious confusion here. Look at the forum guidelines I posted for you. I asked you to follow them and gave you a specific post (on Schumer) that you ignored. I made no threat. Indeed, I asked only that you follow etiquette rules. And post guidelines.

General note: most breaches of forum rules are answered with warnings, or locking the thread, not banning. This came up in Feedback a few days ago. I think everyone is pretty much up to speed on this, and that I am averse to draconian permanent bans. So let's ease up on the insults of moderatorship OK?

Specific response to previous post: how would one quantify and definitely prove "sincerity" in the 538 members of Congress. This is too vague and unsupported to have any member seize the chat and grind everyone down with determination of sincerity levels on politicians. Please answer the challenges to your prior posts from me and Serpent.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 24th, 2018, 11:36 am 

RJG » June 24th, 2018, 9:59 am wrote:Can you not answer with a YES or NO?, ....are the Dems "sincere" or not?

Not.
No, I cannot answer this question. Reasons:
1. "The Dems" comprises an unknown but large number of diverse people,
2. with none of whom I am sufficiently acquainted to guage their level of sincerity.
3. I don't know what tools are available to them, collectively or individually, for solving this problem.
4. I am insufficiently versed in the nature, intent and content of the legislation with which the representatives are faced
5. nor the state of debate in either house over such legislation.

...or are you afraid to admit to the big elephant in the room?

If you have brought an elephant into a room, please take him or her outside before an unfortunate mishap should occur.
PS It might also be helpful, in improving my own behaviour, to have pointed out exactly which "inflammatory rhetoric I should refrain from in the future.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 24th, 2018, 11:50 am 

Moderator note on partisan statements

It is clear that when bipartisan legislative goals encounter delay, from disagreements between the two major parties, that this is a situation in which both parties have a causative role. As has been factually determined here, 60% plus of Americans do not want a Great Wall or discriminatory immigration laws. CBS, Gallup, Harris, Quinnipac, Monmouth, Pew Research, and other major polling organizations have reached similar figures. Both parties have members of Congress who have taken issue with the administration on its hardline position, and pushed for BOTH executive order and legislative relief.

Therefore, intellectually honest, "good faith" discussions must recognize that allegations of obstruction, or empty rhetoric, or foot dragging must give way to rigorous analysis of factual material and verifiable data on how congressional members vote and advance bills. If this is too much work for anyone, then those members are welcome to step aside and let those with facts and figures proceed.

It should be noted, and responded to, that Trump tweeted Thursday that House members shouldn't bother to advance a GOP immigration bill on which they have been working. And which has had some bipartisan support. This seems not so fortunate for moving forward to legislative relief for our border woes.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby RJG on June 24th, 2018, 1:11 pm 

Braininvat wrote:I made no threat. Indeed, I asked only that you follow etiquette rules. And post guidelines.

The threat was implied. You have banned me numerous time in the past, and on one occasion "permanently banned" me on purely 'bigoted' (yours!) reasoning. So excuse me if I am a bit skeptical of your self proclaimed non-biased-ness.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Serpent on June 24th, 2018, 1:44 pm 

On a completely unrelated and frivolous subject:
I'm finding many of the FIFA matches unenjoyable, because some teams routinely employ the tactic of fouling opponents when they can't intercept legally. The referees are, by and large, tolerant, so as not to impede play too much. But this is not in the spirit of the game I learned as a child.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby Braininvat on June 24th, 2018, 2:47 pm 

RJG » June 24th, 2018, 10:11 am wrote:
Braininvat wrote:I made no threat. Indeed, I asked only that you follow etiquette rules. And post guidelines.

The threat was implied. You have banned me numerous time in the past, and on one occasion "permanently banned" me on purely 'bigoted' (yours!) reasoning. So excuse me if I am a bit skeptical of your self proclaimed non-biased-ness.


Nope. Asked you to follow SPCF discourse guidelines. Prior bans were done by two mods, not just me. Every time you are asked to follow basic rules, on the 3 pages of this thread, you ignore moderator's requests to do so, then call people bigots, inflammatory, bullies, irrational, etc. And then you, as with this above post, still ignore the factual challenge presented to you and simply circle back to your original page one assertion, disregarding contrary evidence. Pretty much everything you claim to detest in other postings is embodied in many of yours. I refer AGAIN to the forum guidelines...

IV - General disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. Disruptive behaviors include the following

a) Posts deemed by the moderators to be devoid of any intelligent content.

b) Repeated refusal to cite sources or other evidence to support your claims.

c) Repeated refusal to respond to a moderators request.

d) We do not provide a medium for circular debates which have no end. If a debate has gone on a significant length of time, and the moderators feel that it's going nowhere, they are charged with refocusing the debate, or when that fails, to end it. If a thread is locked, do not start a new thread resurrecting old issues.


You keep circling back, and also making it necessary for me to repeatedly cut/paste forum guidelines to remind you of what I or Ken have already pointed out....and has been ignored by you. As far as I can tell, you will never admit you are wrong or that your behavior is disruptive to on-topic reasoned discourse. Again, read our guidelines. I cannot see having threads like this continued to be hijacked by someone perched on a soapbox, declaring their impression of Democratic Party one-sided obstruction and "bitching" and so on. When others point to facts that do not support this partisan perspective, you are not entitled to simply cry "bias" and stroll off as if you've scored a point.

To others looking on: please save yourself a pointless trip to Feedback and read this thread so as to understand why I have permanently banned RJG. He is banned for cause, made clear above and in forum guidelines, and will not be back. I respect our Republican members, have supported them having a voice here, and respected their nuanced arguments for many Republican ideas, including smaller federal government and various economic measures. RJG's departure has ZERO relationship to party affiliation. We have many Independents here among US members who have probably - as I have - voted for Republicans at various levels when they are more in tune with their state or county. So, again, this is not about anything except our rules for CIVIL discourse.

If you want a different Admin here let me know. I will step down immediately if a sizeable minority or, obviously, a majority, feels that would be best.
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Re: "Suffer The Little Children .."

Postby toucana on June 24th, 2018, 7:21 pm 

I have been a chatroom operator and manager in a number of different IRC channels, including the DALnet #philosophy channel, for some while.

The SPCF forum moderation is very fair, and very patient on the whole, in my experience.

A visitor who attacked the @s in one of my IRC channels in that way would be gone in a lot less than 60 seconds; typically after one line - but there again, we tend to suffer trolls less gladly.
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toucana
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Location: Bristol UK
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