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RJG » June 19th, 2018, 4:30 pm wrote:It seems to me that:
3. The President is trying to force the lawmakers (particular the Dems) to sit down and fix the immigration mess once and for all (and maybe sneak in funding for the wall).
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RJG » June 19th, 2018, 2:30 pm wrote:This "appeal-to-emotion" has strong propagandist value. ...maybe it will sway our leaders/lawmakers to do something? ...we can only hope.
It seems to me that:
1. The Dems want to do 'nothing', so as to claim how evil and mean this president is.
2. The Repubs don't know what to do.
3. The President is trying to force the lawmakers (particular the Dems) to sit down and fix the immigration mess once and for all (and maybe sneak in funding for the wall).
Currently there is a stalemate, nobody seems to be willing to move from their position. So the crying babies at the border continue, ...and continue. While the politicians continue their "no-action" bad-mouthing.
Wake up people! ...do your job!
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"an organisation not worthy of its name" and a "cesspool of political bias".
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RJG wrote:It seems to me that:
1. The Dems want to do 'nothing', so as to claim how evil and mean this president is.
2. The Repubs don't know what to do.
3. The President is trying to force the lawmakers (particular the Dems) to sit down and fix the immigration mess once and for all (and maybe sneak in funding for the wall).
Braininvat wrote:RJ, since you have complained about partisan attacks, and personal attacks lacking evidentIary basis, I would here have to request that you also follow those guidelines and refrain from statements like (1).
Braininvat wrote:Many Democrats have supported a humanitarian course with respect to refugees, massively reported by news organizations around the globe, so (1) would be rather difficult to support in any case. Our news forum is not set up for waving a foam finger for one political party.
Braininvat wrote:I would think you would support those bipartisan efforts rather than some of the negative and discriminatory comments from the extreme far Right, lumping terrified mothers in with gangsters, rapists, drug dealers, and so on. We should be supporting bipartisan coalitions that can bring common sense and compassion, rather than let partisans hold innocent people hostage.
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Serpent wrote:What is it you think the minority Democrats could do but refuse to?
Serpent wrote:Why cannot the administration change its own policy?
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RJG » June 19th, 2018, 5:16 pm wrote:RJG wrote:It seems to me that:
1. The Dems want to do 'nothing', so as to claim how evil and mean this president is.
2. The Repubs don't know what to do.
3. The President is trying to force the lawmakers (particular the Dems) to sit down and fix the immigration mess once and for all (and maybe sneak in funding for the wall).Braininvat wrote:RJ, since you have complained about partisan attacks, and personal attacks lacking evidentIary basis, I would here have to request that you also follow those guidelines and refrain from statements like (1).
Are you threatening to ban me again?
Should I also refrain from statements like 2, and 3? ...as they could also be interpreted as condescending by fans/supporters of the Repubs and fans/supporters of the Pres.
Are you a fan/supporter of the Dems? ...and therefore can't tolerate anti-Dem comments? ...but then have no problem with tolerating anti-Trump comments?Braininvat wrote:Many Democrats have supported a humanitarian course with respect to refugees, massively reported by news organizations around the globe, so (1) would be rather difficult to support in any case. Our news forum is not set up for waving a foam finger for one political party.
So then why are YOU doing so!?Braininvat wrote:I would think you would support those bipartisan efforts rather than some of the negative and discriminatory comments from the extreme far Right, lumping terrified mothers in with gangsters, rapists, drug dealers, and so on. We should be supporting bipartisan coalitions that can bring common sense and compassion, rather than let partisans hold innocent people hostage.
This seems to be a bit hypocritical. Shouldn't you REFRAIN from comments such as this? ...as this is an obvious personal attack against those on the extreme far right.
It seems that you cannot see your own bias/bigotry/discrimination. You allow trash talking against those groups that you don't agree with, while condemning (or threatening to ban, in my case) those that have a counter opinion. Hypocrisy at its finest!
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wolfhnd » June 19th, 2018, 5:02 pm wrote:The fact that many people illegally crossing our border are uninterested in adopting traditionally western liberal democratic values means they will have little influence on reform in their home countries. For example only 30 percent of immigrants from Latin America favor the first amendment.
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RJG » June 19th, 2018, 8:47 pm wrote:Just because they are a "minority", does not mean they cannot help, ...right?
But it seems (to me anyways) that Dems have no desire to work with (or help) the Republicans on any important issues.
[Why cannot the administration change its own policy?]
I think they could if they wanted to. Again, I can only speculate that Trump is trying to force the Dems and Repubs to do their job and put forth comprehensive immigration laws once and for all.
We have immigration laws now, but many seem to want to openly disobey them
, hence the chaos we now have.
Either respect and honor current law, or change the damn law. Ignoring and closing our eyes to those laws that we don't like is not a solution.
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RJG wrote:Just because they are a "minority", does not mean they cannot help, ...right?
Serpent wrote:Whom can they help? How can they help?
RJG wrote:But it seems (to me anyways) that Dems have no desire to work with (or help) the Republicans on any important issues.
Serpent wrote:On what basis have you formed this opinion?
Serpent wrote:Why cannot the administration change its own policy?
Sepent wrote:Do you think the issue can be solved once-for-all?
Serpent wrote:Doesn't the situation change over time and require new strategies and responses?
RJG wrote:We have immigration laws now, but many seem to want to openly disobey them
Serpent wrote:Why? Has something happened? Do you know what events or circumstances have influenced the "many" (I'm guessing you mean people) to start disobeying laws which have prevailed in times past?
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The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. The Justice Department under Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.
Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.
Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.
When families or individuals are apprehended by the Border Patrol, they’re taken into DHS custody. Under the zero-tolerance policy, DHS officials refer any adult “believed to have committed any crime, including illegal entry,” to the Justice Department for prosecution. If they’re convicted, they’re usually sentenced to time served. The next step would be deportation proceedings.
Illegal entry is a misdemeanor for first-time offenders and a conviction is grounds for deportation. Because of Trump’s executive order, DHS can deport people for misdemeanors more easily, because the government no longer prioritizes the removal of dangerous criminals, gang members or national-security threats. (A DHS fact sheet says, “Any individual processed for removal, including those who are criminally prosecuted for illegal entry, may seek asylum or other protection available under law.”)
Families essentially are put on two different tracks. One track ends with deportation. The other doesn’t.
After a holding period, DHS transfers children to the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services. They spend an average 51 days at an ORR shelter before they’re placed with a sponsor in the United States, according to HHS. The government is required to place these children with family members whenever possible, even if those family members might be undocumented immigrants. “Approximately 85 percent of sponsors are parents” who were already in the country “or close family members,” according to HHS. Some children have no relatives available, and in those cases the government may keep them in shelters for longer periods of time while suitable sponsors are identified and vetted.
Adding it all up, this means the Trump administration is operating a system in which immigrant families that are apprehended at the border get split up, because children go into a process in which they eventually get placed with sponsors in the country while their parents are prosecuted and potentially deported.
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You see this is my life, it always will be. There’s nothing else - just us, and the cameras, and those wonderful people out there in the dark. Alright Mr. DeMille. I’m ready for my close up. (Gloria Swanson - Sunset Boulevard 1950)
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RJG » June 20th, 2018, 7:15 am wrote:The Dems help is needed to pass laws that would fix this and other immigration messes (DACA, sanctuary cities, etc).
Everyone can bitch about the problems, but there are some that can actually do something and directly solve these problems.
So let me ask you Serpent, -- Why are the Dems reluctant to work with the Repubs to change these laws? ... seriously, what is the 'real' reason?
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Serpent wrote:What laws need to be passed?
Serpent wrote:Why can't the majority Republicans pass these unspecified laws without help?
RJG wrote:Everyone can bitch about the problems, but there are some that can actually do something and directly solve these problems.
Serpent wrote:Specific recommendations? What should be done? Who has the power to do it?
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RJG » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:28 pm wrote:At some point, the "bitching" phase needs to end, and the "solving" phase needs to begin.
Unfortunately, - All 'talk' (bitch) and 'no-action' seems to be the Modus Operandi of many of our elected officials.
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Congress has the power to write/change these new laws, but this requires the help of Dems, who seem (to me) to prefer to "bitch" about the problems, instead of helping to "solve" the problems.
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RJG » June 20th, 2018, 10:28 am wrote:[What laws need to be passed?]
The laws pertaining to the Immigration problem; Amnesty, DACA, Sanctuary Cities, Border Enforcement, Separating babies from mothers, or whatever all the bitching is about.
They don't have enough votes (especially in the Senate).
Not all Republicans see eye-to-eye. With the help of the Dems, and a sufficient number of willing Republicans, they can pass whatever bills they want. But, the real question seems to be -- Do they really "want" to?
[Specific recommendations?]
Congress has the power to write/change these new laws, but this requires the help of Dems, who seem (to me) to prefer to "bitch" about the problems, instead of helping to "solve" the problems.
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SciameriKen » June 20th, 2018, 8:45 am wrote:RJG » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:28 pm wrote:At some point, the "bitching" phase needs to end, and the "solving" phase needs to begin.
Unfortunately, - All 'talk' (bitch) and 'no-action' seems to be the Modus Operandi of many of our elected officials.
In my opinion this should not be a partisan issue. I don't want my country to be one that uses children as bargaining chips to achieve its aims. Its disgusting abhorrent behavior. Trump could direct the attorney general to stop enforcement of this law through executive action - second to that Congress needs to change the law. Ultimately Trump acts on what he thinks his core supporters want - so this change has to begin with Trump supporters.
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SciameriKen wrote:In my opinion this should not be a partisan issue.
SciameriKen wrote:I don't want my country to be one that uses children as bargaining chips to achieve its aims. Its disgusting abhorrent behavior.
SciameriKen wrote:Trump could direct the attorney general to stop enforcement of this law through executive action…
SciameriKen wrote:...second to that Congress needs to change the law.
SciameriKen wrote:Ultimately Trump acts on what he thinks his core supporters want - so this change has to begin with Trump supporters.
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RJG » June 20th, 2018, 11:37 am wrote:
[SciameriKen -- Trump acts on what he thinks his core supporters want ]
This seems to be flawed logic. It sounds like you want to blame (or hold responsible) Trump supporters for what's happening at the border. But if you poll Trump supporters, most would probably agree with you (including his own wife and daughter) that this is not acceptable.
Like I stated earlier, I suspect he is playing hardball, with the intent of bringing this country together on "solving" our immigration problems.
What is stopping the Dems and Repubs from working together to "solve" some of these problems?
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- RJGNo, disagree. The power of "executive action" should not be encouraged, and in my opinion, should be outright illegal. This power opens a can-of-worms, allowing a president to enact further capricious laws/actions at his whim. Dangerous, and should be discouraged (imo).
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Serpent wrote:Then why is he doing it?
RJG wrote:Like I stated earlier, I suspect he is playing hardball, with the intent of bringing this country together on "solving" our immigration problems.
Serpent wrote:How well is that going, so far?
RJG wrote:What is stopping the Dems and Repubs from working together to "solve" some of these problems?
Serpent wrote:As Braininvat has pointed out - twice - they have worked together in the past.
Braininvat wrote:BTW, the AP reports a few minutes ago that Trump will be signing an EO today, to end the child separation situation, allowing parents and children to be detained together. IOW, he will undo the adverse effects of his previous EO. What is your take on this reversal?
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- RJGThis seems to be flawed logic. It sounds like you want to blame (or hold responsible) Trump supporters for what's happening at the border. But if you poll Trump supporters, most would probably agree with you (including his own wife and daughter) that this is not acceptable.
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RJG » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:37 pm wrote:<quote - sciameriken>Trump could direct the attorney general to stop enforcement of this law through executive action…<end>
No, disagree. The power of "executive action" should not be encouraged, and in my opinion, should be outright illegal. This power opens a can-of-worms, allowing a president to enact further capricious laws/actions at his whim. Dangerous, and should be discouraged (imo).
SciameriKen wrote:Ultimately Trump acts on what he thinks his core supporters want - so this change has to begin with Trump supporters.
This seems to be flawed logic. It sounds like you want to blame (or hold responsible) Trump supporters for what's happening at the border. But if you poll Trump supporters, most would probably agree with you (including his own wife and daughter) that this is not acceptable.
Like I stated earlier, I suspect he is playing hardball, with the intent of bringing this country together on "solving" our immigration problems. We can't keep kicking the can down the road. We need to solve this once and for all.
What is stopping the Dems and Repubs from working together to "solve" some of these problems? ...pride/ego? ...political posturing?, …what??
How about doing it for the good of our country!
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RJG » June 20th, 2018, 12:04 pm wrote:[Then why is he doing it?]
[ the intent of bringing this country together on "solving" our immigration problems]
All good things take time.
(example: North Korean peace talks).
RJG wrote:[bipartisan legislation]
But did they "solve" these problems? ...or just kick them down the road?
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