“Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Reopened October 2019 - includes archived threads from pre-2019

“Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on November 10th, 2018, 4:06 pm 

President Donald Trump landed in France earlier today and promptly cancelled his scheduled visit to the military cemetery near Aisne-Marne, because it was raining.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/10/trump-baltics-balkans-mixup-le-monde-belleau-cemetery-paris

The visit to the cemetery was supposed to be a major ceremonial occasion to mark the centenary of the end of WW1 on Armistice Day, “the day the guns fell silent”, on 11 November 1918.

The visit was also meant to honour the fallen American war heroes of the Marines Corps who died in the nearby Battle of Belleau Wood in June 1918, and who are all buried at the military cemetery in Aisne-Marne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Belleau_Wood

The Battle of Belleau Wood which was fought in June 1918 was the bloodiest engagement of American forces in the whole of WW1, and subsequently became part of the heroic battle history of the US Marine Corps.

Two full US divisions including the 5th Brigade Marines who had only just arrived in France fought a major battle to halt a final massive assault by the German army that was newly bolstered with units returned from the eastern front after the capitulation of Imperial Russia in the wake of the Bolshevik revolution. The German commanders were desperate to launch a major offensive before the newly arrived American forces could fully deploy and consolidate their positions.

After several days of murderous fighting during which the US forces had suffered almost 8,000 casualties (1,811 killed), the American Marines were advised by their French allies to withdraw from their positions in Belleau Wood.

“Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here” replied the American commander. - Lucky it wasn’t raining.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby TheVat on November 10th, 2018, 5:30 pm 

A man has his reasons.

my guesses:

1. Bone spurs ache when it rains

2. Rain messes up his hairdo

3. It's just a bunch of dead people

4. Very bad planning from the stupid French

5. Macron guest rooms have all his favorite cable channels, and French porn is amazing
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Forest_Dump on November 10th, 2018, 7:06 pm 

When Trudeau was there in 2017 for the 75th anniversary of Dieppe he gave a speech in the rain noting that the few minutes of discomfort they were experiencing was nothing compared to the rain of bullets the soldiers had faced during the war.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby edy420 on November 11th, 2018, 2:00 am 

Braininvat » 11 Nov 2018, 10:30 wrote:A man has his reasons.

my guesses:

1. Bone spurs ache when it rains

2. Rain messes up his hairdo

3. It's just a bunch of dead people

4. Very bad planning from the stupid French

5. Macron guest rooms have all his favorite cable channels, and French porn is amazing


6. The rain washes away his orange skin tone. And reveals he is Mexican.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 3rd, 2020, 7:25 pm 

A new article published today in The Atlantic by Jeffrey Goldberg provides some more information on this story from two years ago.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/

When President Donald Trump canceled a visit to the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery near Paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the last-minute decision, saying that “the helicopter couldn’t fly” and that the Secret Service wouldn’t drive him there. Neither claim was true.

Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.


Trump’s understanding of heroism has not evolved since he became president. According to sources with knowledge of the president’s views, he seems to genuinely not understand why Americans treat former prisoners of war with respect. Nor does he understand why pilots who are shot down in combat are honored by the military. On at least two occasions since becoming president, according to three sources with direct knowledge of his views, Trump referred to former President George H. W. Bush as a “loser” for being shot down by the Japanese as a Navy pilot in World War II. (Bush escaped capture, but eight other men shot down during the same mission were caught, tortured, and executed by Japanese soldiers.)
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 4th, 2020, 5:14 am 

President Trump and his staff have denied this story, and have called The Atlantic “a terrible magazine”.

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-denies-calling-dead-us-soldiers-losers-and-suckers-12063179

The problem here is that Trump once made very similar comments in public about Senator John McCain back in 2015 when Trump was seeking the GOP nomination and referred to his Republican critic who was shot down over Vietnam and tortured by the Vietcong by saying he "lost” , and that "he never liked him as much after that, because I don't like losers."

The Atlantic claims that their story is well sourced, and is supported by information from at least four different people within president Trump’s inner circle - You don’t need to do much detective work to figure out who at least one of them might be either.

On Memorial Day 2017, Trump visited Arlington National Cemetery, a short drive from the White House. He was accompanied on this visit by John Kelly, who was then the secretary of homeland security, and who would, a short time later, be named the White House chief of staff.

The two men were set to visit Section 60, the 14-acre area of the cemetery that is the burial ground for those killed in America’s most recent wars. Kelly’s son Robert is buried in Section 60. A first lieutenant in the Marine Corps, Robert Kelly was killed in 2010 in Afghanistan. He was 29. Trump was meant, on this visit, to join John Kelly in paying respects at his son’s grave, and to comfort the families of other fallen service members.

But according to sources with knowledge of this visit, Trump, while standing by Robert Kelly’s grave, turned directly to his father and said, “I don’t get it. What was in it for them?” Kelly (who declined to comment for this story) initially believed, people close to him said, that Trump was making a ham-handed reference to the selflessness of America’s all-volunteer force. But later he came to realize that Trump simply does not understand non-transactional life choices.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby jocular on September 4th, 2020, 6:39 am 

He had this to say as an argument from incredulity.

""To think that I would make statements negative to our military and our fallen heroes when nobody's done what I've done with the budgets, with the military budgets, with getting pay raises for our military," said the president. "It is a disgraceful situation by a magazine that's a terrible magazine"

Doesn't strike me as very convincing -or to the point.

"Fallen heroes" is a trite phrase these days.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby TheVat on September 4th, 2020, 10:27 am 

The Washington Post has also checked the sources for the Atlantic story, and confirmed the quotes.

Today's quiz, for serious students of American politics....

Who said,

At the heart of Donald Trump's statement is a lack of respect for those who have served - a disqualifying characteristic to be president.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 4th, 2020, 12:15 pm 

Who said,

At the heart of Donald Trump's statement is a lack of respect for those who have served - a disqualifying characteristic to be president.

I think it was Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) who was upset by Donald Trump's jibe about his friend John McCain - "Just a loser, not a real war hero" on July 18 2015.

Jeffrey Goldberg incidentally is the the Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic, and you can watch a clip of him talking on the Morning Joe program about how he wrote the article:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu7Gu8wPdsA

MSNBC and AP have both independently confirmed the story as well.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 4th, 2020, 2:04 pm 

I wonder who brought it to the DTS attention. No way he reads that terrible magazine - they use long words full of nasty spelling. I wonder if there is a minion whose regular job includes a daily briefing on any publication that carried a negative reference to the DT, and if so what's the burn-out rate.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 4th, 2020, 5:09 pm 

It's perhaps worth mentioning that The Atlantic was founded in Boston in 1857.

The regular contributors included Ralph Waldo Emerson, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, and Harriet Beecher Stowe amongst others. Chock-full of liberals, abolitionists and subversives - As you can see.

A truly terrible magazine indeed. No wonder DT doesn't read it :-P
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 4th, 2020, 5:47 pm 

Even an NSC correspondent from Fox News is apparently now saying on Twitter that her sources are confirming that president Trump made remarks of this type.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 4th, 2020, 6:33 pm 

But he gave the armed forces lots and lots of tax-payers' (a group to which he stands in the same relation as he does to the military: he's no sucker) money!! True, he raked it back for his pet "infrastructure" project, and his Space Cadets program... But still, they ought to show some gratitude.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 4th, 2020, 8:19 pm 

By a curious coincidence president Trump has now decided Friday to reverse a previous decision to cut the funding for the Stars and Stripes newspaper that has served American soldiers since the Civil War, in an announcement that came hours after the outlet's demise was revealed.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/04/trump-said-his-administration-not-cut-funding-stars-and-stripes/5720089002/

“The United States of America will NOT be cutting funding to @starsandstripes magazine under my watch,” Trump tweeted Friday. “It will continue to be a wonderful source of information to our Great Military!”

In a previously unpublicized memo cited by USA TODAY on Friday, the Pentagon delivered an order to shutter the newspaper and cease publication after Sept. 30.

Press advocates decried the move, arguing it was the latest in a series of decisions by the Trump administration to undermine independent reporting.

The decision to reverse course comes as the White House is facing a firestorm after a report in The Atlantic that details a history of Trump insulting members of the U.S. military who have been captured or killed. The story, citing unnamed officials, said Trump disparaged the military and described America's war dead as "losers" and "suckers" – accusations he has angrily denied.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 4th, 2020, 9:18 pm 

I notice it's "The United States" that changed its mind. He's been saying "we" this and "we" that since the beginning of his reign, but it's never quite so blatantly the royal "We".

I have to admit this particular debacle is a great relief to me. Alienating the military makes him a little less dangerous to the world.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 5th, 2020, 5:30 am 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KjiVtSB-6Q

The chickens appear to be completing their home-runs and doing formation landings this morning.


(ETA - So are the pigs, judging from the FNC contribution at the head of that clip).
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby TheVat on September 5th, 2020, 9:47 am 

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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 5th, 2020, 10:09 am 

Well, now, wait a minute. Those Southern heroes were fighting for their Economy. DT's can understand what was in it for them. (but I'm not sure he understands that they lost.)
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby edy420 on September 5th, 2020, 4:45 pm 

edy420 » 11 Nov 2018, 19:00 wrote:
6. The rain washes away his orange skin tone. And reveals he is Mexican.


Lol, my remarks when I was gullible.

Now that Im genuinely interested, Im having trouble finding evidence. "Multiple sources", "My source", "official confirms accusations" "the source"... ok cool story. Now show me the evidence.

Why not release this information when it was relevant, instead of years later, right before an election. I don't like the fact that the only named source is a reporter. Am I supposed to just take his word for it?
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 5th, 2020, 5:50 pm 

Nobody's been able to prove Trump exists; we only have his word for it.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 5th, 2020, 6:46 pm 

edy420 » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:45 pm wrote:
edy420 » 11 Nov 2018, 19:00 wrote:
6. The rain washes away his orange skin tone. And reveals he is Mexican.


Lol, my remarks when I was gullible.

Now that Im genuinely interested, Im having trouble finding evidence. "Multiple sources", "My source", "official confirms accusations" "the source"... ok cool story. Now show me the evidence.

Why not release this information when it was relevant, instead of years later, right before an election. I don't like the fact that the only named source is a reporter. Am I supposed to just take his word for it?

The anonymous sources for this story are widely reported elsewhere to include Marc Esper (Secretary of Defense), General James Kelly (former DHS and Chief-of-Staff), and General James Mattis (Secretary of Defense 2017-19, CO-USJFC).

Reporters from many different news organisations say they have independently confirmed from their own confidential sources many details contained in the original article by Jefferey Goldberg (Editor-in-Chief The Atlantic) during the last 24 hours. They include James Laporta of AP (who happens to be a Marine veteran himself) and Jennifer Griffin who is NSC (National Security Correspondent) for Fox News Corporation.

https://apnews.com/b823f2c285641a4a09a96a0b195636ed

I would also point out that this thread was started almost two years ago. There is a certain run-up and history to all this. The only real surprise is quite how concerted and effective the push-back to Trump from the US military leadership has been, as opposed to that of the invisible, inaudible, and utterly shameful 'leadership' of the Republican party in Congress.

If you prefer not to believe something so widely asserted by such diverse investigative news sources as the Washington Post and the Fox News Corporation, and insist on being presented with 'evidence' then good luck.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 6th, 2020, 4:52 am 

Just for the record, here is a link to the original Reuters reporting of president Trump’s visit to France in November 2018

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-france-memorial/trump-cancels-ww1-memorial-at-us-cemetery-in-france-due-to-rain-idUSKCN1NF0NU

Two points of particular interest:

i. President Trump claimed that bad weather prevented him from travelling to Aisne Marne
.
Fact —> This contemporary report indicates that there was only light rain, and that General Kelly and other members of Trump’s military staff *did* travel to cemetery by car without the slightest difficulty. Given that the cemetery is only about 50 miles from Paris, and that modern security convoys routinely travel at a mile per minute, there was clearly not the slightest reason for the Commander-in-Chief not to attend this important and symbolic public ceremony, which lends credence to the claim that he simply did not want to go.

ii. Last Friday when The Atlantic published its story, Trump told reporters that he had been so upset at not being able to attend the ceremony back in 2018 that he had phoned up his wife Melania in Washington DC to tell her all about how disappointed he was not to have gone to Aisne Marne.

Fact —> As the report clearly indicates, Melania Trump was with her husband in Paris on that trip. They actually had dinner with President Macron at the Elysee Palace, which renders this particular prevarication utterly absurd.

President Trump is shown to be such an infantile and idiotic liar that no reasonably intelligent person should have the slightest difficulty in deciding who is telling the truth here, and who is not.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 6th, 2020, 9:53 am 

It's going to get crazier and scarier in the next month. Opposition will intensify; witnesses will come forward; old and recent wrongdoings will come to the public's attention.
He's losing the election, losing high-profile supporters, losing the thread of his narrative and his already tenuous grasp on reality. The lies, accusations and executive orders will only be ever more wildly inappropriate, inflammatory and destructive.
Pray that his minions have the courage to refuse.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 7th, 2020, 2:34 pm 

Bloomberg has a report today that president Trump finished up his controversial trip to France in November 2018 by looting valuable pieces of artwork from the house of the US ambassador in Paris and shipping them back to Washington aboard Air Force 1.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-06/trump-ended-2018-france-trip-having-art-loaded-on-air-force-one?srnd=premium&sref=sGsy0HYh

The story unfolded like this: While in Paris with other world leaders to commemorate the centennial of the end of World War I, Trump stayed at the official residence of U.S. Ambassador Jamie McCourt, the palatial Hôtel de Pontalba. The mansion, in Paris’s chic 8th arrondissement, dates to 1842. It has served as a flagship of the State Department’s “Art in Embassies” cultural diplomacy program, and is open to tours.

The president’s planned visit to the Belleau Wood cemetery was canceled.. That left Trump with about six hours of free time in the ambassador’s residence.

The next day, Trump pointed out a Benjamin Franklin bust, a Franklin portrait and a set of figurines of Greek mythical characters, and insisted the pieces come back with him to Washington.

McCourt, the ambassador, was startled, but didn’t object, according to people briefed on the incident. Trump later quipped that the envoy would get the art back “in six years,” when his potential second term in office would be winding down.

The art, worth about $750,000 according to one of the people familiar with the episode, was loaded aboard Air Force One while Trump visited another cemetery before the flight back to Washington.

Apologists might point out that president Trump was at least following a well-known historical precedent of sorts. Reischsmarschall Herman Göring famously ransacked Paris and departed with entire train loads of priceless looted artworks after France capitulated to the Nazis in 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_plunder

Göring’s original ’collection agency’ called the Dienststelle Westen ERR was located in the Museum Jeu de Paume in Paris and supplied around 594 major items for his personal collection back in Germany. Most were never seen again.
Last edited by toucana on September 7th, 2020, 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby Serpent on September 7th, 2020, 2:42 pm 

Any word on where those pieces - I mean the ones Trump appropriated, not the Goering loot - are now?
Oh, I see - seems they were fakes and replicas.
Of course.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 7th, 2020, 3:09 pm 

After White House art curators examined the pieces Trump brought home, the president was told that the Franklin bust was a replica. He joked that he liked the fake better than the original, two people familiar with the episode said.

A true connoisseur. "It takes one to know one" as they say - (Fakes that is).
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby edy420 on September 7th, 2020, 9:48 pm 

Im on a bit of a Trump interview marathon atm. For 20 years hes been talking highly about the military. These claims are incredibly out of character.

That link doesn't say who the anonymous sources are.

Press exec Kayleigh Mcenany says this topic is debunked. She released the emails that show the military pulled the pin, not Trump. She also provides 10 on the record accounts that prove Trump wanted to be there.

One sides lying. Ill just have to take a guess which one.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby TheVat on September 8th, 2020, 9:51 am 

Unfortunately some of his remarks, like those disparaging the military service of Senator John McCain were made in public, with a microphone turned on.

And no, sorry, but mean-spirited slanders are not at all out of character for Trump, as anyone with access to Twitter is aware of.
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Re: “Retreat ? Hell, we only just got here.”

Postby toucana on September 8th, 2020, 5:04 pm 

edy420 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:48 am wrote:Im on a bit of a Trump interview marathon atm. For 20 years hes been talking highly about the military. These claims are incredibly out of character.

That link doesn't say who the anonymous sources are.

Press exec Kayleigh Mcenany says this topic is debunked. She released the emails that show the military pulled the pin, not Trump. She also provides 10 on the record accounts that prove Trump wanted to be there.

One sides lying. Ill just have to take a guess which one

Press exec Kayleigh Mcenany says this topic is debunked. She released the emails that show the military pulled the pin, not Trump. She also provides 10 on the record accounts that prove Trump wanted to be there.

One sides lying. Ill just have to take a guess which one..


Alternatively, you could do a liitle more research, and apply some forensic critical thinking to the matter. Here’s a free starter for you:

President Trump has had three distinguished Marine Corps generals in his cabinet to date

General Jim Mattis - Secretary of Defense (2017-19)
General John F. Kelly - DHS (2017), Chief-of-Staff (2017-19)
General H.R McMaster - NSA (2017-18)

If president Trump really is such an unconditional friend and admirer of the military and the military mind, then do you not think it likely that at least one of these distinguished men would still be employed within his administration after only three years ?

You could paraphrase Lady Bracknell in Oscar Wilde’s play The Importance of Being Earnest and say “To lose one general is a misfortune, to lose all three sounds like carelessness”

More to the point. If president Trump really is such a paragon of loyalty and deference to the Pentagon, then might you not expect at least one of these former military cabinet members to step forward and speak in glowing terms - or at least say a kind word on behalf of their Commander-in-Chief when he is being so severely traduced by the media ?

So precisely where are these encomiums, tributes and glowing endorsements from the generals who know and respect their CIC so well ?

Well, try this extract from an article written by General Mattis who was president Trump’s Secretary of Defense and published in The Atlantic magazine not so long ago on 23 June.

Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society. This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... on/612640/

There are other equally searing public denunciations of this president’s breathtaking veniality, stupidity and utter incompetence in all matters military by quite a number of other senior commanders - notably:

Admiral W.H McRaven - The commander who planned the operation that killed Osama Bin Laden and subsequently wrote an op-ed about Trump in The New York Times beginning “Our Republic is under attack by the president “ (17 October 2019).

General McCaffrey - A distinguished infantry commander who served in the Vietnam and Persian Gulf wars and who later became a TV commentator on military affairs for NBC. On 16 March 2018 he tweeted that President Trump was “A threat to national security and under the sway of Vladimir Putin..”

I’ll leave you to chase these and other references up on your own though, it’s instructive.
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