Lies of the mainstream media.

Reopened October 2019 - includes archived threads from pre-2019

Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby hyksos on October 19th, 2019, 12:25 am 

I think there was a golden age of journalism around the time that Jon Stewart was hosting the Daily Show. Jon Stewart correctly identified the fact that Fox NEws and surrounding outlets were no longer reporting facts, but spinning narratives. However, in 2019, the narrative spinners are found equally on "both sides of the dial" as it were. The more liberal side of mainstream television news media (CNN, MSNBC, HLN, NBC) are now guilty of spinning narratives, and practically equally guilty as Fox News. In the last few days, I got to see Chris Hayes lie to my face about Turkey and Syria. That is what motivated me and prompted me to write this article.

I will list three major lies that the MSM claimed to me on TV. Starting from the most recent first.


1 Turkey is committing "ethnic genocide"
This claim was made bald-faced by Chris Hayes, on his evening news and politics show. Like other highly liberal media outlets, the claim of Turkish genocide of the Kurds inside Syria is bent and twisted into a narrative to demonize Trump. Hayes spices up his fabricated narrative by showing a completely non-contextual, bizarre video of dusty Kurdish children getting off of a bus.

This "genocide" is not going on at all. Trump did not "greenlight" it. This is fabricated media spin. It's more than spin. It is an out-and-out lie.

I will expand if anyone bites.

2 Russian Intelligence Services colluded with the Trump Campaign
This lie was perpetuated ad nauseum by Rachel Maddow on her evening news and politics show , TRMS. She perpetuated it for something like 18 to 20 months. While Maddow and MSNBC have largely backed down from this claim, presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren has in recent days been repeating it while stumping the trail. In a cackling, indignant voice Warren says "I read the Mueller Report -- all 438 pages -- and it clearly outlines collusion." Well Elizabeth, I read it too, and it clearly outlines the exact opposite. Russian Intelligence had no interest in cooperating with anyone from the Trump campaign, even when they would have invited and loved such cooperation. Since they were not cooperating, they certainly were not colluding.

Now don't me get wrong. I love Warren and my politics align with hers very strongly on issues. But she needs to stop with this crazed conspiracy theory.

I will expand if anyone bites.


3 Trump Supporters attacked people outside of a Trump Rally

The event in question took place in Chicago on March 11, 2016.

If you recall, this was prior to the election of Hillary VS Trump. The ethos in America at this time was that Donald Trump was openly promoting white nationalism, racism, and even fascism. For these reasons, his rallies began to attract giant protests outside of the halls. By March, Trump rallies were drawing in highly-coordinated protest groups such as ANTIfa and Black-lives-Matter , BLM.

For some reason, this particular protest in Chicago was extra angry. BLM and Antifa escalated their anger to shreaking, throwing things. The protests became worse through the evening as BLM and Antifa started to engage in vandalism of property and burning cars. At the height of the frenzy, BLM and/or Antifa had drawn burning debris across an overpass, shutting down traffic in one direction.

Due to the escalating violence across the street from the rally hall, the rally itself was cancelled. ALl the Trump supporters then started to leave the area, and most of them had parked in a multi-leveled parking garage. It was there that the BLM and Antifa protestors began to accost the Trump supporters as they went to their cars. This may or may not have led to a violent incident in the parking garage.

Rachel Maddow shown helicopter footage of this event on her show. She then proceeded to look into the camera and claim that "Trump supporters were attacking people." Like angry neo-nazis were stomping down the street and attacking poor little grandmas. The reality was the complete utter opposite. Anti-Trump protestors were accosting (and possibly attacking) those who came to attend.

For all intents, Maddow had lied bald-faced into the camera. Again, I will expand this if anyone bites.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby toucana on October 20th, 2019, 10:33 am 

hyksos wrote:
Warren says "I read the Mueller Report -- all 438 pages -- and it clearly outlines collusion." Well Elizabeth, I read it too, and it clearly outlines the exact opposite.

Really? You are definitely ahead of the curve, because the Mueller Report hasn’t yet been published in anything like its full form. All that has appeared in public is a bowdlerised version that was gutted by the Attorney General William Barr. Until the full version of the Mueller report is released, along with the critical Grand jury evidence that is currently witheld, you might be wiser to refrain from passing any opinion about what the SC actually found and documented in evidence.

Meanwhile you could usefully pass some time reading this document which is the Report of The Select Committee on Intelligence United States Senate on Russian Active Measures Campaign And Interference in the 2016 U.S. Election Volume 2: Russia’s Use Of Social Media With Additional Views.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf

The document which is an unusually detailed bi-partisan Senate report cannot be dismissed as ‘MSM Lies’ . Even allowing for all the redactions in this report, it paints a chillingly detailed picture of the work carried out by the ‘Internet Research Agency’ (IRA or Агентство интернет-исследований, in Russian) better known colloquially as the ‘Troll Farm’ based in St Petersburg during the 2016 US election

This was a Russian media company linked to Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin who ran it on behalf on the Kremlin and the Russian intelligence services as an online influence propaganda arm. As the report indicated, the IRA was a flat-out black-ops disinformation agency that relentlessly trolled on behalf of then candidate Donald Trump from December 2015. The IRA systematically lied, trolled, and impersonated American actors on every single social media platform during the 2016 US election. In the words of the Senate report’s own findings (II-U).
(U) The Committee found that the IRA's :lnformation warfare campaign was broad in scope and entailed objectives beyond the result of the 2016 presidential election. Further, the Committee's analysis of the IRA's activities on social media supports the key judgments of the January 6, 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment, "Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections," that "Russia's, goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton,· and harm her electability and potential presidency." However, where the Intelligence Community assessed that the Russian government "aspired to help President-elect Trump's election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him," the Committee found that IRA social media activity was overtly and almost invariably supportive of then-candidate Trump, and to the detriment.of Secretary Clinton's campaign.

On 16 February 2018 a US grand jury empanelled by Special counsel Robert Mueller indicted 13 Russian nationals and 3 Russian entities including the IRA based on the evidence that went into this Senate report.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/russians-indicted-in-special-counsel-robert-muellers-probe.html

Two other items for your consideration.

1. On 27th July 2016 during a campaign rally in Miami, Donald Trump publicly called on Russia to obtain and publish 30,000 ‘missing’ emails from his opponent Hillary Clinton’s private server. This was the infamous ‘Russia if you are listening..” speech. It is now a matter of record that Russian intelligence officers began making their first attempts to hack 76 email accounts of Hillary Clinton and her campaign staff on the same day that Donald Trump publicly asked them to do so. Probably within an hour or so of that speech. (The information comes from the same sources used in the Senate report referenced above).
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/russia-hack-clinton-emails-mueller-probe-indictment-trump-latest-a8446626.html

2. On 10th May 2017 President Trump held a closed-door meeting with Russian Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak - a meeting that American reporters were firmly excluded from incidentally (the press pictures came from a Russian photographer). This meeting is now absolutely notorious for the following reasons:-
- It took place just one day after President Trump had fired FBI director James Comey.
- Trump boasted to the Russians about firing Comey and told them that “The heat is now off”
- Trump told the Russian diplomats that he ”Didn’t mind Russia interfering in US elections”
- Trump casually disclosed an ‘eyes only’ Israeli intelligence report about ISIS to the Russians.

Can seriously still maintain in the light of this information that you don’t believe there is any evidence of co-ordination or collusion between Donald Trump’s 2016 US election campaign and the Kremlin ? I don’t think so, and nor do many others
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby hyksos on October 21st, 2019, 2:57 am 

Can seriously still maintain in the light of this information that you don’t believe there is any evidence of co-ordination or collusion between Donald Trump’s 2016 US election campaign and the Kremlin ? I don’t think so, and nor do many others

Yes. I absolutely can. The Mueller Report details how both massive amounts of money and manpower were being thrown at digging dirt on Hillary Clinton. It gives names and amounts of money paid to each individual. If any of those multiple people with money and time and manpower had a "red line" to the Kremlin, they would have used it in an instant. They did not use it. They failed at every turn and pass to find dirt, including the 30K emails they so desperately wanted. There is no other conclusion to draw than that the Russian INtelligence Services wanted nothing to do with them. Russian agents were not cooperating with the campaign's fully-funded and operational mud-digging operations. Since cooperation was not taking place, collusion (a stronger form) was not taking place either.

Meanwhile you could usefully pass some time reading this document which is the Report of The Select Committee on Intelligence United States Senate on Russian Active Measures Campaign And Interference in the 2016 U.S. Election Volume 2: Russia’s Use Of Social Media With Additional Views.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sit ... olume2.pdf

The document which is an unusually detailed bi-partisan Senate report cannot be dismissed as ‘MSM Lies’ . Even allowing for all the redactions in this report, it paints a chillingly detailed picture of the work carried out by the ‘Internet Research Agency’ (IRA or Агентство интернет-исследований, in Russian) better known colloquially as the ‘Troll Farm’ based in St Petersburg during the 2016 US election

This was a Russian media company linked to Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin who ran it on behalf on the Kremlin and the Russian intelligence services as an online influence propaganda arm. As the report indicated, the IRA was a flat-out black-ops disinformation agency that relentlessly trolled on behalf of then candidate Donald Trump from December 2015. The IRA systematically lied, trolled, and impersonated American actors on every single social media platform during the 2016 US election. In the words of the Senate report’s own findings (II-U).

Yes. Russia interfered in the 2016 election. Correct and true. But that's not collusion.


On 27th July 2016 during a campaign rally in Miami, Donald Trump publicly called on Russia to obtain and publish 30,000 ‘missing’ emails from his opponent Hillary Clinton’s private server. This was the infamous ‘Russia if you are listening..” speech.

Frankly, Toucana, you are being hoodwinked by media spin.

Donald Trump did indeed say, on camera :

"Russia, if you are listening please produce the 30,000 emails, our press would reward you mightily."

He said this not as an invitation to collusion. He said this because his campaign did not have those emails. They didn't have them because nobody was handing them over to his highly-paid secret teams that were trying to get copies of it. The MSM spun that sentence and tried to have the public interpret it as an invitation to collusion. It was not. It was a statement of frustration on Trump's part. He was asking Russia to produce those emails because his campaign goons were unsuccessful at getting a copy of them.

Read the Mueller Report. Nothing in there describes "hotlines" or secret "red lines" to the Trump campaign. Everything that was hacked by 'Guccifer 2.0' was released via wikileaks, not through some alleged secret channels with the Trump campaign nor their paid goons.


On 10th May 2017 President Trump held a closed-door meeting with Russian Foreign minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak - a meeting that American reporters were firmly excluded from incidentally (the press pictures came from a Russian photographer). This meeting is now absolutely notorious for the following reasons:-
- It took place just one day after President Trump had fired FBI director James Comey.
- Trump boasted to the Russians about firing Comey and told them that “The heat is now off”
- Trump told the Russian diplomats that he ”Didn’t mind Russia interfering in US elections”
- Trump casually disclosed an ‘eyes only’ Israeli intelligence report about ISIS to the Russians.

Yes. Donald Trump is oddly cozy with Russian government, and seems to want to please them in terms of foreign policy. Trump is bizarrely obsessed with dictators and other strongmen, Putin being one of many. But again, what you have described here were policy meetings, not secret collusion activities.

Just so we are not off on the wrong foot, I am a Bernie Sanders voter. I have close friends who were literally working for his campaign in 2015/2016, and the photos to prove it. I don't own any MAGA hats and if Trump is impeached it wouldn't move a hair on my arm. Nevertheless, I am a champion of truth and factual veracity to the point of obsessiveness. I think we need to steer this thread away from MSM talking points , (which you are currently listing ad nauseum) and get into the contents of the Mueller Report. I do believe that if you read it, you will draw the same conclusions I did.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby toucana on October 21st, 2019, 7:42 am 

Okay, let’s try and do the joined-up thinking bit.

For the sake of argument, let us make the extraordinarily generous assumption that Donald Trump had absolutely no conception that the Kremlin and the Russian intelligence service were all lobbying hard on his behalf during the 2016 US presidential election campaign.

Admittedly this is a rather large jump to make given that his son Donand Trump jnr, Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort, and son-in-law Jared Kushner had all agreed to meet a female Russian lawyer called Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Towers NYC on 9 June 2016 on the assumption that she would provide dirt on Hillary Clinton coming directly from the Russian government - (“I love it” quoth Donald Jnr in an email at the time) - But nonetheless, let’s just assume that Donald Trump had no sinister knowledge of, nor intent to accept clandestine Russian help in his campaign.

The problem is that Donald Trump once he was elected president did begin to learn exactly what the Russian intelligence services had been up to during the 2016 campaign, because both he and his transition team all began receiving very detailed briefings from the FBI, the NSC, the JCS and the DNI from December 2016 onwards as to what had been going on behind the scenes.

FBI director James Comey had the interesting task of explaining that the president-elect himself had been a target of interest owing to concerns raised by the Steele dossier amongst other sources. The substance of everything else that subsequently turned up in that Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report about the IRA Troll factory and Russian influence peddling would have been communicated to Trump in person well before he set his hand on the bible and swore to uphold the constitution of America at his inauguration in January 2017. Whatever state of blissful ignorance Trump might have been in BEFORE that moment, he was certainly not unaware of what Russia had been doing during the 2016 campaign AFTER the presidential transition security briefings were concluded.

Which brings us to the events of May 9th and 10th 2017. When president Trump walked into the Oval office with Sergey Lavrov and Sergei Kislyak the day after firing FBI director James Comey and told them that he didn’t mind the Russian government meddling in US elections, then president Trump did so in the full knowledge of everything that the IRA Troll Factory had been doing to polarise American politics and to throw the 2016 election in his direction. (Bear in mind that the Intelligence Community report on Russian intereference in the 2016 election which was the predecessor of the Senate Intelligence Committe report had already been released in January 2017. There is no way on earth that Trump and his advisers could have been unaware of it).

President Trump effectively, welcomed that inteference and gave it his personal blessing in the presence of the Russian foreign minister and Russian ambassador to the USA. That is not just collusion, it is treason writ large and clear to many. There has never been a moment quite like it in US history, and hopefully there will never be one like it again.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby hyksos on October 21st, 2019, 12:35 pm 

For the sake of argument, let us make the extraordinarily generous assumption that Donald Trump had absolutely no conception that the Kremlin and the Russian intelligence service were all lobbying hard on his behalf during the 2016 US presidential election campaign.

Admittedly this is a rather large jump to make given that his son Donand Trump jnr, Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort, and son-in-law Jared Kushner had all agreed to meet a female Russian lawyer called Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Towers NYC on 9 June 2016 on the assumption that she would provide dirt on Hillary Clinton coming directly from the Russian government - (“I love it” quoth Donald Jnr in an email at the time) - But nonetheless, let’s just assume that Donald Trump had no sinister knowledge of, nor intent to accept clandestine Russian help in his campaign.


I'm not going to do "generous assumptions" and "large jumps". Nope. NOt today. What we will do is go over the Mueller REport page by page. We will see -- in blinding black-and-white text -- that Russian Intelligence Services (FSB) had absolutely no contact or cooperation with the Trump campaign, even when the paid army of goons would have welcomed it with open arms.

If the paid army of goons had a red line with the Kremlin, then they would have used it and used it early. They did not. Because there was no red line.


Whatever state of blissful ignorance Trump might have been in BEFORE that moment, he was certainly not unaware of what Russia had been doing during the 2016 campaign AFTER the presidential transition security briefings were concluded.


Awareness is not cooperation.
Awareness is not collusion.



Which brings us to the events of May 9th and 10th 2017. When president Trump walked into the Oval office with Sergey Lavrov and Sergei Kislyak the day after firing FBI director James Comey and told them that he didn’t mind the Russian government meddling in US elections, then president Trump did so in the full knowledge of everything that the IRA Troll Factory had been doing to polarise American politics and to throw the 2016 election in his direction. (Bear in mind that the Intelligence Community report on Russian intereference in the 2016 election which was the predecessor of the Senate Intelligence Committe report had already been released in January 2017. There is no way on earth that Trump and his advisers could have been unaware of it).


Correct. Trump welcomes interference against his political rivals from overseas. That's correct. No argument there.



President Trump effectively, welcomed that inteference and gave it his personal blessing in the presence of the Russian foreign minister and Russian ambassador to the USA. That is not just collusion, it is treason writ large and clear to many. There has never been a moment quite like it in US history, and hopefully there will never be one like it again.


I disagree with yoru defn of "collusion" there. Collusion implies secret contacts and direct moving of information between actors. Not WIKILEAKS DUMPS which anyone with an internet connection can scrape. It implies direct clandestine delivery. The Mueller Report does not include a single incident of transfer of information from a Russian state actor to a Trump campaign goon. Not a single one. In fact, it is chapter after chapter of the paid dirt diggers continually failing to find anything.


treason writ large


Likely. What is most disturbing is that we have cluster of republicans surrounding Mitch McConnel. This cluster of Trump ring-kissers seem to be telling the American people something like : "Foreign interference in an election is criminal when the other party does it." and/or "Foreign interference is not a crime when that interference is welcomed."

The more cud-chewing MAGA hat House reps may even be going as far as "Trump can do whatever he wants because he is King."
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby toucana on October 21st, 2019, 8:10 pm 

Your slavish addiction in attempting to construe the Mueller report line by line, and to lecture me on what you think it contains would be more useful if the said Mueller had actually been published in any complete form.

As previously noted in this thread, it has not. What has appeared in public so far is a highly redacted precis that was susbtantially gutted by a completely corrupt Attorney General called William Barr who seems to be acting as president Trump's personal attorney, rather like the abominable Roy Kohn of infamous memory.

As and when the Mueller report is published in a reasonably complete form, along with the supporting Grand jury evidence that went with it, then I will consider discussing it. Right now I'm not even interested in William Barr's corrupt little mash-up, because I know it is tainted, incomplete and worthless.

You do seem to have gone out of your way to avoid following the very simple syllogistic argument I offered; namely that even if Donald Trump was unaware of Russian attempts to assist his campaign before he was elected in November 2016, he most certainly knew about them after January 2017 because the FBI and DNI briefed him extensively and in great detail about it during the transition period. And yet Donald Trump went out of his way to welcome the Russian Foreign minister and ambassador in a private meeting in the Oval office on 10 May 2017 and effectively applauded them for their efforts by saying that he didn't mind Russia meddling in US elections.

Your attempts to to play semantics about what 'collusion' means are redundant, because if you read what I wrote you will see that i actually accused president Trump of treason rather than collusion.

Why treason? Well if you re-read the Senate Select Committee On Intelligence report that I cited you wil see that they unequivocally define Russia's interference in the 2016 US presidential election as 'Information Warfare' and that please note is a committee of the US Senate saying that, not the MSM.

If members of the Senate are prepared to adopt that language then so will I, and would refer you to the definitions of treason that are normally recognised in the USA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_States

Most epecially:
or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby hyksos on October 21st, 2019, 10:06 pm 

As and when the Mueller report is published in a reasonably complete form, along with the supporting Grand jury evidence that went with it, then I will consider discussing it. Right now I'm not even interested in William Barr's corrupt little mash-up, because I know it is tainted, incomplete and worthless.


This is bogus. The Mueller Report is not a "tainted incomplete worthless" document at all. This is totally disingenuous.

And per your William Barr rant, I am not merely rehashing "talking points" at you that I heard on a podcast or a blog. I am talking to you as a man who has read the Mueller Report and I am reporting its contents to you directly, without interpretation by any pundit of any stripe.

You do seem to have gone out of your way to avoid following the very simple syllogistic argument I offered; namely that even if Donald Trump was unaware of Russian attempts to assist his campaign before he was elected in November 2016, he most certainly knew about them after January 2017 because the FBI and DNI briefed him extensively and in great detail about it during the transition period.

You have completely gone out of your way to avoid reading a single page of the Mueller Report. The excuses you are presenting for excusing yourself from any responsibility of reading any part of it (redacted or not) are falling on deaf ears.


Why treason? Well if you re-read the Senate Select Committee On Intelligence report that I cited you wil see that they unequivocally define Russia's interference in the 2016 US presidential election as 'Information Warfare' and that please note is a committee of the US Senate saying that, not the MSM.

If members of the Senate are prepared to adopt that language then so will I, and would refer you to the definitions of treason that are normally recognised in the USA:


That's fine. I agree with all of this. But we already went over this. The ring-kissing Republicans in the Senate are trying to sell something to the American people that goes : "If foreign interference in an election is welcomed, it is not a crime." Again, the House Reps are going back to their little districts to tell their constituents that King Orange can do whatever he wants because he is King.

In no shape or form am I republican MAGA hat. I am not happy to find out that the Trump campaign had no contact with Russian state actors in 2016. But my motivation on this forum is not to be the loudest political pundit, but to spread truth even when it hurts.

As far as my emotional state goes , I feel betrayed -- stabbed in the back -- by portions of the MSM.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby hyksos on October 21st, 2019, 10:14 pm 

Since I have breached the topic of the MSM, I'm going to add to my ongoing list of Lies of the mainstream media

Rachel Maddow has been both hinting at and sometimes explicitly claiming that the 2016 election was "stolen" from Hillary Rodham-Clinton. Consequently , Donnie is an illegitimate heir to the oval office. This is another fabricated narrative of the MSM. And I am totally aware of what blue-haired street-protesting demographic it appeals to. We are who are are on this forum, but there does exist a constituency out there who goes down the street with picket sign in tow, shouting "NOT MY PRESIDENT".

Donald Trump won the 2016 election because people voted for him. Not because it was "stolen" for him by Russian troll farms. The demographic that sailed him into the White House were white males between the ages of 45 and 60, who predominantly live in rural areas of Pennsylvania, Michigan, Missouri and Wisconsin. And this is a topic which should probably be expanded upon in a another thread. In any case, Donald Trump is duly elected POTUS. I don't say these things because they make me happy. I say them because they are true.
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Re: Lies of the mainstream media.

Postby TheVat on October 22nd, 2019, 12:46 pm 

Donald Trump won the 2016 election because people voted for him. Not because it was "stolen" for him by Russian troll farms. The demographic that sailed him into the White House were white males between the ages of 45 and 60, who predominantly live in rural areas of Pennsylvania, Michigan, Missouri and Wisconsin. And this is a topic which should probably be expanded upon in a another thread.


It was. Nearly three years ago, there were several threads here. Most of us have moved on. IIRC, there were some interesting chats about the history of the electoral college, its roots in Southern slaveholding, the concept of the faithless elector, the disproportionate power of more thinly-populated states, the problems with the winner-take-all system (which is used in 48 of the 50 states, IIRC), etc. I think it was generally agreed that the EC problems were not specific to the 2016 election, and IIRC some positive points were made regarding the vast majority of democracies in the world that presently use direct voting.

So, I would respectfully ask that you do a thorough search on the site before starting another thread on a topic that was heavily discussed here. I am sorry I don't have time today to hunt for the old threads.
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