I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

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I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 10th, 2020, 7:45 pm 

Almost... We all know trump's modus operandi is to fetch his lawyers and send them off to war (and threaten anyone he can if it helps his cause in any way).

So why isn't Biden returning fire? I suspect he's just waiting it out thinking none of this will happen, and that's likely true. But regardless of how defensible Biden's position already is, why shouldn't he return fire? Sue trump and his lawyers for something, anything? Defacement and lying about Biden and his team? Something to show that he's not going to roll over! At this point, it seems like Biden is just taking lots of flak and not returning anything, which is a sign of weakness to many, especially trump supporters. I think it would help his cause just to be out there responding to this, especially in a court.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 10th, 2020, 10:24 pm 

Dave_C » December 10th, 2020, 6:45 pm wrote: At this point, it seems like Biden is just taking lots of flak and not returning anything, which is a sign of weakness to many, especially trump supporters. I think it would help his cause just to be out there responding to this, especially in a court.

Act like Trump in order to win over Trump supporter? Do you really that would work?
He's got much more important things to do than waste his own supporters' money and esteem by throwing trumptrums. The toddler from hell must eventually exhaust himself and be dragged off stage. Then maybe the grownups can get on with salvaging what they can the country he's trashed.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 1:13 am 

So why isn't Biden returning fire?


Because you don't take on a psychopath, Dave, it's that simple. Unless you're one yourself, of course.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 11th, 2020, 8:03 am 

If someone claims Serpent or Charon is a pedophile, and they spread that false information around using twitter, news, internet, etc... do you have any recourse? Are you a psychopath to defend yourself?
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 9:51 am 

Defend yourself against what?
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 11th, 2020, 11:07 am 

Dave_C » December 11th, 2020, 7:03 am wrote:If someone claims Serpent or Charon is a pedophile, and they spread that false information around using twitter, news, internet, etc... do you have any recourse?

Not really. People can lie about one another pretty much any way they want. There has never been an effective defence against calumny except the truth, and the truth can't be forced on people; they have to recognize it for themselves. Social media renders lies and character assassination more potent now than they have ever been, and there is no currently legal way to stop it.
As for trump, anyone who still believes him after the stinking piles of obvious lies in his wake, will certainly not be dissuaded by a denial, nor a slew of witness testimony, nor any proof.

Are you a psychopath to defend yourself?

How? His fans don't recognize a psychopath when they see one in action, and they would enjoy nothing more than watching a cock-fight rigged in favour of the bird they bet on. My supporters, if I have any, know my character and would not like to see me engage in such a spectacle.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 11th, 2020, 12:35 pm 

Defamation is one possibility:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/defamation
Defamation
Primary tabs
Overview
Defamation is a statement that injures a third party's reputation. The tort of defamation includes both libel (written statements) and slander (spoken statements).

Elements
To prove prima facie defamation, a plaintiff must show four things: 1) a false statement purporting to be fact; 2) publication or communication of that statement to a third person; 3) fault amounting to at least negligence; and 4) damages, or some harm caused to the person or entity who is the subject of the statement.

1) False reporting of illegal manipulation of ballots.
2) Twitter
3) Fault/negligence seems obvious
4) Damage of character, damage to election, etc...
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 11th, 2020, 12:37 pm 

Trump has been sued and is in the process of being sued for defamation already, for example:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... entnewsntp
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 1:07 pm 

The crime isn't telling lies in public, it's when the lie adversely affects and damages someone's life - but the damage has to be proven to be the direct result of the lie. A case for defamation can also be pursued if the lie is only likely to cause damage, even if it hasn't at that point.

Defamation cases are notoriously difficult to prove. There was a case some time ago about precisely this example, someone being called a 'pedo' on Twitter. I was never quite sure about it myself for several reasons and, personally, it still leaves quite a bad taste in the mouth. For one thing, the court said the claimant wasn't well-known enough to be seriously defamed even though he'd been formally honoured as a hero both in Thailand and the UK for his actions.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... tish-diver
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 11th, 2020, 1:24 pm 

Dave_C » December 11th, 2020, 11:37 am wrote:Trump has been sued and is in the process of being sued for defamation already, for example:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... entnewsntp


And how is that benefitting anyone? What is that achieving?
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby TheVat on December 11th, 2020, 1:35 pm 

The forms of defamation that are causes of action in law are libel and slander. Libel, if written; slander, if spoken. Both require that a false statement is made which damages a person's reputation and livelihood or is likely to. Most of the suits brought against Trump, of these types, are designed to publicly push back against Trump's false characterization rather than to win in court, AFAICT.

My lawyer friend says that Biden, being known as a man of good character and reputation, has little need to bother contending with any verbal flatulence that emanates from the "president." To respond to Trump is to give him more oxygen - he thrives on drama and attention. Plus it's a waste of legal fees. The odds of actually winning a monetary compensation for damages are tiny. Does anyone think, if that were not the case, that Trump would spend so much time, day in and day out, slandering people?
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby TheVat on December 11th, 2020, 1:48 pm 

Also want to add: anyone who thinks that chest-pounding and attacking people are signs of "strength" is likely beyond the reach of facts and reason. I find it weirdly ironic that so many in the working class have been somehow able to equate Commander Bone Spurs' cowardly blustering and state of near-perpetual hysteria over any slight or affront to his Greatness with strength. The working class that I know, both through family and from living in working class neighborhoods, has always equated strength more with quietness, economy of speech, and a calm demeanor. What a former US president once called "grace under pressure."
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 11th, 2020, 3:39 pm 

These are all great points, and I don't disagree. But this is an anti-trump echo chamber. We're going to all agree of course. I've had the pleasure of sitting in a trump echo chamber at work during lunch. I mean to say I do love these guys but they're just echoing each point the president makes. Perhaps it's a waste of time to argue with trump, but I see trumpeteers being bolstered by his rhetoric. And without anything from the other side (not talking about news which obviously is telling the story for Biden) the trump echo chamber just gets louder. I honestly do think there could be some benefit if Biden were to be more vocal. Perhaps defamation lawsuit isn't the right answer, but then I think even supporters of honesty and integrity have to admit that trump's bs has helped him and injured others.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 11th, 2020, 7:10 pm 

The Trumpeteers don't listen to the news and they certainly won't listen to anything said by Biden or his team or his advocates; there is a good chance they wouldn't even know about any response. The real bottom line, however, is:
They simply don't care.
They don't care that he lies. They don't care he's a lardass pretending to be a hardass. They don't care that he's guilty of financial crimes, sex crimes, war crimes and crimes against Nature. They don't care that his policies don't work, that he's wasting or pocketing their donations, that he's profiting from the propaganda gear and hate-wear they dress in, that he's destroying their environments, schools and communities. You can't get through to them, because
They do not care.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby edy420 on December 11th, 2020, 8:15 pm 

Talk about election fraud?

Biden is adamant that Trump is delusional, and has no evidence. What fraud, nothing to see here. If Biden addressess it, then it becomes a reality.

I'm anticipating the fireworks display when the supreme courts final decision is made. It will be quite a show, the world is watching.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 8:20 pm 

Most of the suits brought against Trump, of these types, are designed to publicly push back against Trump's false characterization rather than to win in court, AFAICT.


In that case they're as bad as he is.

Why are those lawyers pursuing cases without evidence? If they're the smart lawyers they're supposed to be, they know full well they'll get nowhere. So why? For the money? Tell me.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 8:24 pm 

this is an anti-trump echo chamber. We're going to all agree of course.


I like to think we're merely being rational. And actually we don't always agree.

I honestly do think there could be some benefit if Biden were to be more vocal.


Put yourself in his position. Sounding off about you-know-who is just playing his game. It reduces you to the same level.

We should all read this, written in 2017, long before all the current furore and not directly about it. Just see how many familiar boxes it ticks.

https://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/lo ... 13891.html
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby charon on December 11th, 2020, 8:27 pm 

edy420 » December 12th, 2020, 1:15 am wrote:Talk about election fraud?

Biden is adamant that Trump is delusional, and has no evidence. What fraud, nothing to see here. If Biden addressess it, then it becomes a reality.


If the judges address it, as they all have done so far, it becomes a fact. That includes the latest Supreme Court verdict.

Sorry, no fireworks, just another big yawn.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 11th, 2020, 9:45 pm 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/supreme-court-rejects-texas-effort-overturn-election-fatal-blow-trump-n1250883
Don't you just hate court appointees who don't act like they've been bought?
Just another damp squib in the Trump pyrotechnical arsenal.
Really, it's the only way to deal with a recalcitrant child. Let him drum his litle heels, scream his little lungs out and hold his breath till he turns purple -- just keep saying "NO" gently, but firmly, until he gives up or falls asleep. Then trundle him off to bed.

Yes, I'm very much aware that he won't stay in his crib and will throw things and make as much racket as possible.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby toucana on December 12th, 2020, 7:13 am 

I rather enjoyed the comments by CNN analyst Daniel Dale who said “I don’t normally have to fact check legal briefs.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/11/politics/trump-turmoil-supreme-court/index.html

But such was the level of incoherent and illiterate nonsense to be found in the amicus curiae briefs attached to the latest unsuccessful appeal to SCOTUS, that critics were well witihin their rights to suggest that they might as well have been written in wax crayon by a 10 year-old still attempting to master joined-up writing.

Some of the better solecisms included:
- A GOP brief from a hitherto unknown state of the union called ‘Lousiana’ (sic)
- One from an entity calling itself the “The New Sate(sic) of Nevada”
- Briefs from “New California” and “New Nevada” that repeatedly misspelled the name of Gavin Newsom the current Governor of California.
- Another GOP brief that wrongly assigned Rep. Jeff Van Drew to South Carolina. (He actually represents 2nd district New Jersey).

Here are seven of the more egregious falsehoods noted by Daniel Dale that were included in these filings:

i. CLAIM —> “No candidate in history - Republican or Democrat - has ever lost an election after winning both states (Florida and Ohio)”
This is false. Richard Nixon won both Florida and Ohio in the 1960 presidential election and still lost to JFK. In any event who cares ? It has only anecdotal relevance, and is of no evidential significance.

ii. CLAIM —> “In Wisconsin the largest cities all deployed hundreds of unmanned, unnsecured absentee ballot drop boxes that were all invalid means of returning absentee votes under state law”
Untrue. The drop boxes in question were bolted to the ground, tamper-proof, secured at all times. And they were also monitored with CCTV video surveillance by officials 24 hours a day.

iii. CLAIM —> “The policies of of Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania created a greater prospect of fraud. As an example, “leaving ballot boxes in public parking lots invites fraud”
This is without any foundation. Secure drop boxes have been used in these states for many years without the slightest difficulty, or any evidence of enhanced levels of electoral fraud.

iv. CLAIM —> “The prohibition of local independent observers at polling stations in Byelorussia was a factor demonstrating that the election there was not free and fair”
This statement by secretary of State Mike Pompeo might be of interest to a historian documenting the electoral history of Eastern Europe, but unless Byelorussia somehow became the 51st state of the union, it has no earthly relevance to the conduct of the 2020 US presidential election. Not one of the numerous claims by Trump supporters alleging that GOP observers were banned from polling stations was upheld in court. In fact the exact opposite happened. Time and time again Trump lawyers once they were in standing in front of a judge reversed all the claims they had earlier made in front of the press cameras, and meekly conceded that GOP observers had been present after all.

v. CLAIM —> “Pennsylvania’s Secretary of State issued guidance purporting to suspend signature verification requirements. In direct violation of the law”.
False - The Pennsylvania Supreme Court had prevously ruled 7-0 that nothing in state law required the signature verification procedures suggested.

vi. CLAIM —> “In Michigan the Secretary of State illegally flooded the state with absentee ballots applications mailed to every registered voter, despite the fact that state law strictly limits the ballot application process”.
Absentee ballot forms are freely available online in Michigan for anyone to download.

vii CLAIM —> “Trump won 18 of the 19 so-called ‘bellwether counties - counties whose vote almost always goes for the candidate who won the election”.
This happens to be true. But so what ? Demographics change. A state that was a trend marker in 1880 may not be one in 1980, and one that was a bellwether between 1980 and 2000 may not be so 2020. From an evidential point of view this is simpy nugatory.


The SCOTUS threw out the case brought by Texas AG Ken Paxton in an unsigned ruling late on Friday evening without even allowing it to be filed because, “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state carries out its elections”.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-idUSKBN28L2YY

Two of the court’s conservatives, Justice Samuel Alito and Justice Clarence Thomas, said they would have allowed Texas to sue but would not have blocked the four states from finalizing their election results.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Dave_C on December 12th, 2020, 8:42 pm 

This is the direction I think we need to go - call the coup attempt for what it is.

Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-N.J.) has called on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to bar 126 GOP representatives from the House, arguing that their support for the failed, baseless Texas lawsuit seeking to hijack the presidential election violated the Constitution.

...
Pascrell accused the House members who signed an amicus brief supporting the action — including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) — of violating the Constitution by seeking to nullify Americans’ votes and instead choose a “dictator.” He cited Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, enacted after the Civil War and designed to keep traitors out of government.

The section prohibits anyone who had gone to war against the union or given aid and comfort to the nation’s enemies from running for federal or state office.

The Pennsylvania brief responding to the Texas lawsuit referred to its “seditious abuse of the judicial process.”

Pascrell said in a tweet accompanied by a statement on Friday: “Today I’m calling on House leaders to refuse to seat any Members trying to overturn the election and make Donald Trump an unelected dictator.”

The “text of the 14th Amendment expressly forbids Members of Congress from engaging in rebellion against the United States,” he tweeted. “Trying to overturn a democratic election and install a dictator seems like a pretty clear example of that.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bill-pas ... d5d30408eb
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 12th, 2020, 11:10 pm 

That's all fine. Biden, as president elect, needs to stay out of it. As soon as he attains official status and wields administrative power, he can take whatever action he deems appropriate at that time.

So --- are the armed camo-shirts going to surround the representatives on Jan 6th and force them to throw out the electoral college votes? I imagine the NSC is compromised, but some security agency must have worked out all the possible scenarios, rated them for probability and made plans to counteract them, right?....
....Right? ...
..... right...?
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby toucana on December 13th, 2020, 7:12 am 

Image


I am not sure he ever does that much reading to start with, but if he ever did crack a book on this topic and started researching it properly, president Trump would probably make one or two unsettling discoveries:

i. When organising a coup, it usually helps to have the senior military leadership of the country on your side, or at least under your control. Calling senior generals (and their deceased-in-combat sons) ‘suckers’ and ‘losers’, and denouncing trusted military advisers as ‘enemies of the people’ is counter-productive.

ii. You need to be in control of the nation’s ‘mainstream media’ (MSM), even if you are temporarily adopting positions against some of its content for tactical reasons. Denouncing all journalists as ‘enemies of the people’ is once again likely to be unproductive. Throwing a tantrum, calling Fox TV “part of the left wing media”, and then theatrically ordering your loyal followers to watch OAN and Newsmax instead actually reduces the catchment of your chosen messaging instead of expanding its reach - (btw have you ever actually watched OAN and Newsmax ? We know that your supporters are weird - but *that* weird ??).

iii. If you intend to overthrow democracy and become a successful fascist dictator then you not only need some catchy branding and stylish fashion accessories (perhaps Ivanka could help here ?) - you also need either a credible bribe and/or a credible threat. - Yelling “Four More Years!” is sort of betwixt and between. Is that meant to be a threat or a bribe ? Because it doesn’t really cut it either way.


Anyway, best of luck with your reading Donald, and remember - “It ain’t over till the fat baby squeals”.

p.s - If you wish to read the article that came with the cartoon, it’s on:
https://themoderatevoice.com/coups-for-dummies-cartoon-column-and-video/
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 13th, 2020, 11:49 am 

thank you
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby edy420 on December 13th, 2020, 12:42 pm 

charon » 12 Dec 2020, 13:27 wrote:
Sorry, no fireworks, just another big yawn


Trump has said he would concede to a fair election. In his latest statement, he out right said Biden cheated... So he's unclear if he will concede.

Listening to General Mike Flynns latest speech, a few key phrases caught my attention. It sounds like he's rallying troupes, getting them riled up for war. A member of the crowd even yelled back, "we're at your disposal!'

I think the fireworks have just been lit.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby TheVat on December 13th, 2020, 1:54 pm 

It's a pretty small crowd that takes Flynn seriously. Even Trump fired him, 24 days into his job as National Security Advisor.
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Re: I could almost forgive Trump for his coup d'etat attempt

Postby Serpent on December 13th, 2020, 2:31 pm 

It's easy to dispose of a few hundred deplorables: just throw them at the city police or state militia or secret service.
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