Can a vacuum have a speed?

Discussions on classical and modern physics, quantum mechanics, particle physics, thermodynamics, general and special relativity, etc.

Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 10th, 2017, 4:29 pm 

That's the question, can a vacuum have a speed. A vacuum is defined as emptiness so can something that is nothing be moving. But as I corrected the question, can a substance (space) that is just an electromagnetic medium move if it's sealed or does the external electromagnetic medium (space) ignore the seal and the two become one. My last question is when do the two become one if you have initially filled the tube with air and it slowly leaks out until there is a vacuum inside the tube. So it goes from the air in the tube having a speed to the space in the tube not having a speed, it just fixes to the background space and the tube effectively disappears or at least its sealed ends do.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 10th, 2017, 4:41 pm 

This is a good question, Ralf!
ralfcis » 10 Mar 2017, 22:07 wrote:Ok as we go to an even more rarified medium, from glass to air to helium to hydrogen to partial vacuum, all the while getting closer and closer to the permittivity and permeability values of space, at what point is the contained medium no longer able to have a speed?

As soon as you reach whatever you define as "close enough to a perfect vacuum for all practical purposes". ;)

Academically, as soon as the observed speed of light is exactly c in all directions and in every inertial frame watching it. Practically, as soon as you can no longer observe any difference between the speed of light and c in any direction and from any inertial frame.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 10th, 2017, 4:49 pm 

That is a good answer Jorrie! It ties together so many things especially the relationship between the speed of light and the nature of space itself.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby vivian maxine on March 10th, 2017, 4:53 pm 

ralfcis » March 10th, 2017, 3:29 pm wrote:That's the question, can a vacuum have a speed. A vacuum is defined as emptiness so can something that is nothing be moving. But as I corrected the question, can a substance (space) that is just an electromagnetic medium move if it's sealed or does the external electromagnetic medium (space) ignore the seal and the two become one. My last question is when do the two become one if you have initially filled the tube with air and it slowly leaks out until there is a vacuum inside the tube. So it goes from the air in the tube having a speed to the space in the tube not having a speed, it just fixes to the background space and the tube effectively disappears or at least its sealed ends do.


On the last point, if you have a leak, can you have a vacuum? I suppose, if the leak is small enough. And, perhaps if there is no - or not much - air around the outside. Otherwise, wouldn't it crumple and self-destruct?

If I am sitting comfortably and motionless in a car and the car is moving, do I have speed? I say no but I'm outnumbered by those who say yes. Relativity? According to an outside observer? Yes. Inside the tube/car, no.

Is that the same with what is in your tube? If it's only movement is the tube, how can it have movement of any other kind? And my other question (maybe I missed the answer): Can light - or a magnetic wave - move in a vacuum? Or does " the impossibility of slowed light in a vacuum" mean it can not?

Later.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 10th, 2017, 5:01 pm 

Jorrie,
This also answers my question about the Michelson Morley experiment. I always said it was BS that the main conclusion was light doesn't have a medium and dispelled the existence of aether. I now understand it always had a medium but the existence of it was irrelevant to the result of how light and the medium played off each other to yield the constancy of the speed of light to all frames.

But if the universe was filled with an aether that slowed light, no one would know the capabilities of light speed in a vacuum. However, an aether universe would still reveal the velocity combination law which would point to a speed limit of the universe higher than the speed of slowed light even though the Michelson Morley experiment would have shown the earth's movement through the Aether. I believe that was the result of the Fizeau experiments.

Well, that's one question answered.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 10th, 2017, 5:05 pm 

Viv,
When you let air out of a balloon, does the air pressure around the ballloon go up or does the air quickly disperse in the room?

Yes your tube would have to be rigid like a space shuttle for example.

Your question about motion is what most people don't understand about relativity. You are stationary in your car. The people watching you from outside are also stationary relative to their frame. But even though you're both stationary relative to your own frames, you're moving relatively to each other. Both of you are aging at the same rate whether you're moving relative to each other or stationary. But if your car is moving relatively to them and your car comes to a stop, you will age slower than them in the time between when you come to a stop and they see that you have stopped. If you were moving relatively to them, then they had the same relative velocity to you. It's only when you made a change in that shared relative velocity that during the speed of light delay between you and them that you two no longer shared the same relative velocity and that had to be compensated for by you aging slower during that time.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby vivian maxine on March 10th, 2017, 5:38 pm 

And it is all relative. :-)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 10th, 2017, 5:45 pm 

The way relativity puts what I just told you, almost no one can understand.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby vivian maxine on March 10th, 2017, 5:48 pm 

ralfcis » March 10th, 2017, 4:45 pm wrote:The way relativity puts what I just told you, almost no one can understand.



No doubt
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 10th, 2017, 7:18 pm 

Hi Vivian,

Dave_O wrote:So, if that tube is a Spaceship, moving at say 50% the Speed of Light, the sound inside would pretty much still travel inside at the speed of sound.

The speed of sound inside the spaceship would still be normal because it would be measured from inside the spaceship. Relativity is about hiding our velocity through Space-Time and keeping things to measure Normal within their personal framework. I was avoiding dragging in dilated clocks and length contraction, as those just confuse the issue. This is why I said "pretty much" as set in bold above.

Jorrie wrote:I think you have already read the threads where Dave's premises were falsified, so we are not going there again.

Also note that Jorrie doesn't see the difference between something being falsified vs not agreeing with the status quo. Meaning.. if one doesn't agree with Relativity then they are automatically falsified in his view.

But back on track:

ralfcis tube has a hard vacuum inside it, so any feature of light inside the tube will be identical to what would happen outside the tube. If we put air inside the tube, then yes.. light will be slower inside the tube than outside the tube, assuming the outside is still a hard Vacuum.

The speed of light has a maximum speed in a hard vacuum. Anything other than a hard vacuum will affect the speed that light can travel though an alternate medium, including Air, Glass, Water etc.

But per the OP, no.. a vacuum can not have it's own speed.

But.. just for fun:

Our Galaxy has it's own Neighborhood Vacuum/Space-Time and a distant Galaxy also has it's own Neighborhood of Vacuum/Space-Time. But given the Expansion of the Universe, one might argue these two Space-Time Neighborhoods are accelerating apart at an increasing Speed, relative to each other.

Would that not mean that these two Space-Time Neighborhoods have different Speeds Relative to any place between them.. other than dead center between them?

Under these circumstances, one might conclude that a Vacuum can have a Speed, since all Speeds must be Relative to Something.. other than themselves of course.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 11th, 2017, 1:43 am 

ralfcis » 10 Mar 2017, 23:05 wrote: Both of you are aging at the same rate whether you're moving relative to each other or stationary. But if your car is moving relatively to them and your car comes to a stop, you will age slower than them in the time between when you come to a stop and they see that you have stopped.

This is one of the cases where your quantitative answer is the same as SR's, but the explanation differs. SR says that when Viv's car stops next to one of the spectators along the road and they compare clocks, the fact that she has aged less than the spectators is immediately known to that spectator, even if all spectators do not know it yet.[1] While the rest wait for the message to arrive, Viv ages at the same rate as the spectators. This explanation is more logically consistent than yours.


More on this to follow...

[1] We obviously assume that the spectators, stationary along the road, have synchronized their clocks to yours.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 11th, 2017, 1:53 am 

Dave_Oblad » 11 Mar 2017, 01:18 wrote:
Jorrie wrote:I think you have already read the threads where Dave's premises were falsified, so we are not going there again.

Also note that Jorrie doesn't see the difference between something being falsified vs not agreeing with the status quo. Meaning.. if one doesn't agree with Relativity then they are automatically falsified in his view.

Note that Dave on the other hand, seems not to see that not agreeing with observation = falsified. ;)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 11th, 2017, 3:21 am 

Hi all,

And Jorrie seems not to see that I have "Never" disagreed with observation, just interpretations ;)

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 11th, 2017, 5:08 am 

Hi Dave,

I can't figure out the nuances of "Never" ;) So does your interpretation of relativity let you agree with Lincoln's observation of the one-way speed of light? AFAIK, you still did not give us your interpretation of his second, simple one-way method. BTW, this type test has been done with a real atomic clock.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 11th, 2017, 7:37 am 

Jorrie, Jorrie, Jorrie,
I don't want to go off topic discussing our differences here, let's take it back to the Ralfativity thread because this is physics and you'll shut this important thread down for discussing Ralfativity here. I will say, though, that you are transferring the time delay problem of distance separation between observers onto creating a whole line of observers that hold on to the immediate information and then transfer it back. The idea that just because all those observer's clocks say zero means they are sharing a common present is just wrong. Either way it's that delay of information during which relative aging occurs. Potato, tomato.

I woke up this morning and I saw more of the amazing consequences of what was discovered here. Since I can't infer your silence as agreement to what I'm about to say, I'm going to number the revelations and I'd like a list of yays or nays or not quites to each number.

1. We'll just call the vacuum discussed here, "space". Space has 0 spatial velocity component with a c temporal component relative to light and all frames in the same way light has c spatial velocity component with a 0 temporal component relative to space and all frames.

2. Space does not equal time, it is the opposite of time.

3. Space has 0 spatial velocity component relative to space so when space expands it is still going at 0 spatial velocity component.

4. Just like any frame's spatial velocity component relative to light is c, any frame's temporal component relative to space is c.

5. What 4 means is we are always moving through time relative to space at c and we are always moving through space relative to light at c. I'm getting confused now. What am I talking about?

6. The fabled zero absolute velocity that Einstein said doesn't exist is in fact the zero spatial velocity component relative to space.

There are more but let's not dilute the discussion.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby vivian maxine on March 11th, 2017, 7:52 am 

Good morning, ralfcis. Better than waking to snow on the ground when everything is in bloom. Winter's last hurrah?

Please tell me what or where the "velocity combination law" is. I cannot find it. I find a velocity addition law. Is that the same? Thanks.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 11th, 2017, 7:55 am 

I''m in Canada. Up here it's 20 below and nothing but snow.

Yes, the same. I'm just an amateur so I often get in trouble for not knowing terms.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 11th, 2017, 8:36 am 

ralfcis » 11 Mar 2017, 13:37 wrote:Since I can't infer your silence as agreement to what I'm about to say, I'm going to number the revelations and I'd like a list of yays or nays or not quites to each number.

It is a definite "no" to all six. I fail to see even one "not quite" among them. :(

If this sets the trend in this thread, it runs a real risk of relegation instead if "revelation". ;)

PS: Ralf, I suspect that the real reason for writing controversial 'revelations' like these is that they earn clicks. Science does not work by clicks.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby vivian maxine on March 11th, 2017, 8:40 am 

ralfcis » March 11th, 2017, 6:55 am wrote:I''m in Canada. Up here it's 20 below and nothing but snow.

Yes, the same. I'm just an amateur so I often get in trouble for not knowing terms.


Thank you. I'll go back to "additions" and see if that tells us what it is.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 11th, 2017, 8:47 am 

So you said a vacuum has no speed yet you disagree with #3 where the speed of an expanding space relative to space is zero. How are the two not identical. For a second, I thought we were sharing a beautiful moment together; apparently not.

Yes I like to keep the conversation going but that's not why I post, from your perspective, click worthy posts. I'm in it for the truth and that doesn't often come out. But when it does, I pounce on it before it disappears like candy floss in a raccoon's hands washing it in a puddle.

P.S. I should take it as a compliment that you think I really know better.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 11th, 2017, 9:06 am 

Ralf, yes I really think you know better than writing such nonsense in the Physics section.

Attaching any speed to space, even zero, is nonsensical.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 11th, 2017, 9:10 am 

I didn't mean to, imprecision on my part. I mean the spatial velocity component was zero and the time component was c. Everything moves at c always, including space. It's c's components that do the work of accommodating other velocities.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 11th, 2017, 9:14 am 

This is why I'm really not allowed to do physics on the weekends. Once I'm on, I never get off. Masking my activities with porn only works for so long.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 11th, 2017, 5:34 pm 

Hi Jorrie,

Jorrie wrote:AFAIK, you still did not give us your interpretation of his second, simple one-way method. BTW, this type test has been done with a real atomic clock.

I'm sorry, are you referring to the thread where I disproved Lincoln's experiment by formal methodology and his scientific rebuttals were like: "That's silly" or "Your Kung Fu Physics is weak" and various slurs like "Rank Amateur" directed at me.. without once ever addressing my specific points?

Where Lincolns last concept exploited the idea that one could sync two clocks and very, very, slowly separate them without the Universe detecting the clocks changing positions? Where I was going to suggest it might help to hide such from the Universe if he turned off the lights and perhaps distracted the Universe by saying: "Hey Universe.. look over there!"..?

You know, the thread that got locked before I could tear up that last dodge to alter the original premise?

Is that the thread you are referring to?

Perhaps it's best to let that thread remain a shining example of how a legitimate challenge is met with obfuscations, ad hominem slurs, and finally.. censorship via lockout.

Besides.. bringing up that thread here.. would be a deviation from the OP of this new thread.. so best leave sleeping dogs lie ;)

So.. back on Topic:

Can a vacuum have a speed?

Jorrie wrote:Attaching any speed to space, even zero, is nonsensical.

Given that a Galaxy is within its local Space-Time Vacuum and its Velocity within its local Space-Time Vacuum is a specific Velocity.. and.. given what we can detect, via Doppler Shift, that said Galaxy is moving away from us at a specific Velocity far, far, greater than its local Velocity within in its own local Space-Time Vacuum neighborhood could possibly be.. then perhaps.. a Space-Time Vacuum can have its own Relative Velocity from other remote Space-Time Vacuums .. due to Universe Expansion.

Since Velocity is always Relative to something and Velocity Differentials are very different based on distance separation of test cases.. does this qualify that Vacuums (Space), separated by distances, can have their own private differential velocities?

I have to give this some thought..

Best Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 12th, 2017, 4:45 am 

Dave_Oblad » 11 Mar 2017, 23:34 wrote:Since Velocity is always Relative to something and Velocity Differentials are very different based on distance separation of test cases.. does this qualify that Vacuums (Space), separated by distances, can have their own private differential velocities?

Taking 'vacuum' to mean the classical (non-quantum) empty Minkowski space, the answer is simply no. If we go to galactic scales and take 'vacuum' to mean de-Sitter empty space, the answer is that it depends how we choose coordinates, because no inertial frame can span those distances. The spacetime is then curved and there exists no generalized concept of speed over curved cosmological spacetimes.

In cosmology we speak of the recession rates of galaxies, clusters, etc, defined as the co-moving distance to the galaxy multiplied by the Hubble constant. There is no upper limit, like 'c' on recession rates, because it is not a speed. But this is cosmology and far off-topic here. In any case, although it is impossible to observed the recession rate of distant space per se, we can sensibly speak of a galaxy that is co-moving[1] in its local space having a recession rate relative to us.

Without going into a lot of very technical details, it is impossible to describe this adequately, but we have some good cosmological threads on this forum if anyone is interested. Ralf asked a question in the realm of SR and that's the topic we should stick to.

-J

[1]Co-moving means astronomers on that galaxy would observe isotropic CMB radiation, on average.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby ralfcis on March 12th, 2017, 7:57 am 

So the stuff I said before is wrong because of the stuff you said here. Unfortunately I don't know any of the rules that this stuff is based on so I can't understand what you said here because I don't understand why. The explanation why is probably too complex so I just have to accept space has no speed under any possible definition or condition in SR. period. right?

P.S. I also moved the discussion about relative motion we started here into the ralfativity thread in personal theories.
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 12th, 2017, 9:03 am 

Hi Jorrie,

Well put. But I have a question regarding the following statement:

Jorrie wrote:Co-moving means astronomers on that galaxy would observe isotropic CMB radiation, on average.

By CMB radiation, are we talking signal strength or Doppler shift. By Doppler, the CMB is far from being isotropic. It is anisotropic by definition.

Wiki wrote:The high degree of uniformity throughout the observable universe and its faint but measured anisotropy lend strong support for the Big Bang model in general and the ΛCDM ("Lambda Cold Dark Matter") model in particular.

Case in Point:

CMB_Dipole.png
CMB Doppler spread of the Local Sky.

We know by observation of our local sky that the Doppler Shift indicates what direction and how fast we are moving (towards the Blue and away from the Red).

We know that most of our absolute velocity is towards a Location dubbed "The Great Attractor" and our Galaxy has a rough velocity of 1.3 Million Miles Per Hour towards it. We will get there in about 15 billion years (give or take..lol).

You know Jorrie, I truly truly truly hate to be the proverbial thorn in you side. You were my first and Primary Teacher regarding Cosmology and Relativity. I only took off on my own path of Absolutism when I realized how many Paradoxes are embedded in Classical Relativity. The CMB has finally given us poor Absolutists a leg to stand on.

Highest Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby BurtJordaan on March 12th, 2017, 9:39 am 

Dave_Oblad » 12 Mar 2017, 15:03 wrote:By CMB radiation, are we talking signal strength or Doppler shift. By Doppler, the CMB is far from being isotropic. It is anisotropic by definition.

The parameter of the CMB that we actually observe is energy density of the radiation in certain frequency channels, which is then converted to a specific blackbody temperature (2.73K) for the source. The small bulk anisotropy of the observed temperature is related to our peculiar velocity relative to the comoving reference frame, because the Milky way is not a comoving galaxy.

The comoving galaxy that I referred to would see the same 2.73K temperature in all directions. The comoving frame is a useful reference frame for cosmological purposes. Unfortunately for Absolutists, our movement relative to it does not provide us with anisotropic light propagation.

Fortunately for all of us, the observed speed of light is the same for signals coming in with the movement and against it, otherwise the GPS system would have been next to worthless...
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Dave_Oblad on March 12th, 2017, 10:23 am 

Hi Jorrie,

I could launch a counter-rebuttal to the idea that the GPS is a good example of Relativity.

That facts are that the GPS system works because of a Massive amount of learned tweaking. The idea that Gravity is centered in the planets center was a real big mistake. Earths Gravity was far from being Uniform. Then there is the matter of how fast is light (radio) when a satellite is overhead vs on the horizon.. considering atmospheric thickness and density differentials.. and the need to add Doppler data to fine tune it even further.

Bottom line: The GPS system works because we forced it to work.. by long periods of measurements, adjustments and tweaking (which is being continuously updated and altered). If such tweaks were counter to Relativity, then Relativity had to take a back seat to getting the darn thing to work correctly on a practical level.

Don't get me wrong.. I am among many that have used the GPS as a shining example that supports Relativity. But are we being completely honest? That's really hard to say.

Anyway, GPS is off Topic.. so best not go there from here.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Can a vacuum have a speed?

Postby Braininvat on March 12th, 2017, 11:14 am 

Perhaps it's best to let that thread remain a shining example of how a legitimate challenge is met with obfuscations, ad hominem slurs, and finally.. censorship via lockout.


Sorry you feel that way, Dave. You seem to be able to post freely on your personal theories all over SPCF. I'm not sure how you can feel "censored" in this regard. The main reason threads get locked is to end an endless loop where parties, each entrenched in their position, keep restating those positions and declining to accept any points of correction from the opposing party. If you feel that a reputable physicist who works at FermiLab is not properly designing an experiment, interpreting data, or considering all lines of evidence, then by all means start a thread on that. However, if your critiques emanate from your own personal theory and are built on hypotheticals rather than the evidence accrued from a century of experiments, then it would have to be posted in Personal Theories. Having categories at a message board, and guidelines for those categories, is not censorship. It is simply a necessity for rational and focused and informed discussion.
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