Vitamins: Waiting for Data

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Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby TheVat on April 5th, 2018, 12:14 pm 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/03/well/older-americans-vitamins-dietary-supplements.html

As a physician friend of mine used to say, "Americans have the world's most expensive urine."
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby TheVat on October 5th, 2018, 12:45 pm 

And now this, on vitamin D:

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/4/17933880/ ... h-sun-diet

I know a couple members here have hitched their wagon to a different star, regarding vitamin D deficiency prevalence. This Lancet meta-study is worth considering.

This new research builds on previous meta-studies and the large-scale randomized trials that have shown the fat-soluble hormone doesn’t prevent fractures and may not have a role in preventing cancer, but can increase the risk of kidney stones when taken along with calcium.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby SciameriKen on October 5th, 2018, 4:49 pm 

Braininvat » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:45 pm wrote:And now this, on vitamin D:

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/4/17933880/ ... h-sun-diet

I know a couple members here have hitched their wagon to a different star, regarding vitamin D deficiency prevalence. This Lancet meta-study is worth considering.

This new research builds on previous meta-studies and the large-scale randomized trials that have shown the fat-soluble hormone doesn’t prevent fractures and may not have a role in preventing cancer, but can increase the risk of kidney stones when taken along with calcium.


From my work in the lab I'd say when it comes to vitamin D it is likely not about the short term (years for humans) -- but rather, the long-term -- (decades) -- which is something this lancet view doesn't even come close to examining as most human vitamin D trials are <5 years -- probably most <2 years.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby doogles on October 6th, 2018, 3:00 am 

I'm not sure of your motives, BiV, for posting these two articles, but I could not locate any of the original scientific articles cited in them.

However I thank you for giving me an opening to say that my book "Vitamin K or a Wheelchair" has links to a large amount of data in a hundred or so studies to the existence of vitamin K deficiencies and associated conditions. You don't have to wait. Admittedly therapeutic and preventative trials are rare (Whose going to finance them?), but even in some trials that demonstrated significant beneficial effects on bone mineral content, bone marrow density and the incidence of fractures, the authors have regarded the trial doses they used as being low (even though they were almost double the daily recommended allowances.)

As the author of the New York Times article pointed out, Dr. Walter Willett, a professor at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, says it’s reasonable to take a daily multivitamin “for insurance.” Dr. Willett said that clinical trials underestimate supplements’ true benefits because they aren’t long enough, often lasting five to 10 years. It could take decades to notice a lower rate of cancer or heart disease in vitamin takers, he said.

This was a point that SciameriKen made in his post.

And my opinion to some extent is "What does it matter if Americans have the most expensive urine in the world?" However I agree that we must be cautious about the excessive use of any substances. High doses of vitamin D for example are used to induce atherosclerosis in experimental animals.

The new York Times article mentioned the case of Dr Gulati, a physician in Phoenix, who said that her early experience with recommending supplements to her father taught her to be more cautious. She said she’s waiting for the results of large studies — such as the trial of fish oil and vitamin D — to guide her advice on vitamins and supplements. “We should be responsible physicians,” she said, “and wait for the data.”

Unfortunately, we may be waiting a long time because no pharmaceutical company is going to finance research into anything that can subsequently be purchased over the counter with no kickback to the company.

As one example, all of my reading suggests that atherosclerosis is associated with developing dementia. And all of my reading suggests that vitamin K, as an activator of Proteins C and S will reverse atherosclerosis involving up to 50% stenosis as well. My own leg ultrasounds are available in a thread in Personal Theories titled "Vitamin K tablets are required daily" and in my eBook "Vitamin K or a Wheelchair". It shows 50% stenosis of some arteries that became normal after 14 months of vitamin K supplementation, and which resulted in functional reversal of right ankle arthritis, cessation of the use of crutches, as well as improvement in heart and kidney functions. The tracings are there to see, and to the best of my knowledge are the only recorded case of such an extensive reversal of atherosclerosis in the world. The tracings are there to see.

So, getting back to dementia, who is going to finance a trial for dementia along the following lines. Identify a retirement home or two. Find enough people willing to participate in a trial. Subject all to cognitive tests for standard cognition or dementia scores. Select approximately 100 subjects and match them into two groups based on sex, age, and base scores. Put half onto 500 micrograms each of vitamins K1 and K2 and half onto placebo. Assess results after 3 months and 6 months. This would be useful data. How long would you have to wait for data if you were dependent on finance. A negative result would be a positive negative, but a positive result would be useful to everyone on the planet, but of no value to a pharmaceutical company.

The way I understand the bone fragility thing now is that vitamin D transports calcium and enables the gene expression of vital proteins for bodily function. It does NOT have a role in the deposition of calcium into bone. This is the role of matrix-gla-protein and bone-gla-protein (and others), all of which are produced by vitamin D, but cannot become functional until activated by the vitamin Ks. The vitamin Ks have to add carbon and oxygen atoms to these proteins by what is called the 'gamma-carboxylation' of the glutamic acid (an amino-acid) in the proteins.

The thread in this forum and the eBook contain a number of references indicating that there is not enough vitamin K in western diets to promote a healthy lifestyle. We are born without vitamin K; we do NOT manufacture vitamin K; we depend on gut microflora for some, and food for more. But several researchers believe we do not get enough from our food.

I was unable to find any references to toxicity or side effects of vitamin Ks. And in the 1940s, researchers were unable to kill a rat by feeding it the equivalent of two kilograms to an 80 kg animal.

I'm on the side that says "Don't knock the supplements; but don't overdo them."

I would now be in a wheelchair if I had not taken vitamin K supplements.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby TheVat on October 6th, 2018, 11:30 am 

Yes, I think the data on K is pretty persuasive - I take K2 pill every other day myself. The thread is really about discussion of research and where more is needed - the "expensive urine" quote was just meant to stimulate conversation and not that I am an uber-skeptic about vitamin therapies. I quite agree on the problem of depending on Big Pharma to really push this kind of research. This is definitely the place for public-funded research in the public interest.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby wolfhnd on October 6th, 2018, 9:02 pm 

doogles my wife had her thyroid gland removed several years ago. The replacement hormones don't seem to be stabilizing her metabolism. In addition she has severe vitamin D deficiency. I told her she needs to take vitamin K with fat but the doctors seem to be indifferent to her problems.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby doogles on October 7th, 2018, 6:35 am 

Wolfhnd, thanks for the interest but as you can imagine I'm not qualified to give advice on such matters.

But I can express an opinion for whatever value it's worth. I know that if I was diagnosed with a vitamin D deficiency that I would be taking at least 400 IU a day (maybe 800 for starters) as D3 regardless of what anyone said.

The thyroid replacement therapy is outside of the scope of my reading and knowledge, but I think I posted some references recently in the thread on 'Vitamin K Tablets are required daily' to research in dogs showing an association between atherosclerosis and hypothyroidism.

My strong opinion now is that everyone should be taking vitamin K supplements from an early age. They reversed my atherosclerosis in arteries that were 50% to 75% stenosed. I've produced a mass of evidence in the eBook (Vitamin K or a Wheelchair) that as a therapy, we need at least 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and vitamin K2. There is evidence that different tissues may need either K1 or K2. There is evidence that K1 converts metabolically into K2, but I could find no evidence that K2 could convert into K1. Hence I covered both possibilities.

I could find NO literature on the toxicity of vitamin K except for the 1940 attempt to get an LD 50 for a rat, but they could not kill a single one with a dose the equivalent of 2 kg to an 80 kg animal.

As you can imagine I would be taking both of the K vitamins whether I was on thyroid replacement therapy or not. I've listed the brands I've used in the book.

By the way, there are references to early atherosclerosis-type lesions in the arteries of 50% of infants studied, in the arteries of 16 to 19 year-olds, intimal lesions in the aortas of 100% of victims of accidental death aged 15 to 34, and references to high percentages in older humans.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby wolfhnd on October 7th, 2018, 2:18 pm 

Thanks
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby SciameriKen on October 7th, 2018, 8:39 pm 

Just to expand a bit - true severe vitamin D deficiency is often treated with 50,000 IU dose / week for a few weeks. If her doctor didn't give her that id suggest doing 5000 IU daily for a couple months, theb settling around 2000 IU daily. This level puts most humans about 40 ng/ml blood levels - above suffiency - for reference - 100 ng/ml is about the point that is considered too high
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby wolfhnd on October 8th, 2018, 1:49 am 

She has been on 2000 IU for years but has stabilized her blood level at slightly under 20 ng/ml. I'm looking for a relationship between the thyroid problem and the vitamin D problem. Weight gain, lethargy, disrupted sleep patterns and body temperature abnormalities are symptoms following the thyroid removal.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby SciameriKen on October 8th, 2018, 1:29 pm 

wolfhnd » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:49 am wrote:She has been on 2000 IU for years but has stabilized her blood level at slightly under 20 ng/ml. I'm looking for a relationship between the thyroid problem and the vitamin D problem. Weight gain, lethargy, disrupted sleep patterns and body temperature abnormalities are symptoms following the thyroid removal.



The relationship between vitamin D intake and serum vitamin D levels can differ from person to person -- my lab mate needed 5K IU/day to maintain vitamin D levels. There may or may not be a relationship with the thyroid and vitamin D - might just be other factors in her biology. Additionally, does she get much outside time?
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby doogles on October 8th, 2018, 5:05 pm 

Sciameriken, thanks for helping wolfhnd with some practical realities about vitamin D. I've never had to take it as a supplement myself and as you can see, am quite unfamiliar with the variability in dose requirements.

But I would like to throw in the medical hypothesis in Chapter 10 of 'Vitamin K or a Wheelchair' as espoused by Masterjohn (2007; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7706007171). He suggested that a high vitamin D intake could produce so much of the vitamin K-dependent proteins that bodily resources of vitamin K could be over-utilised and become deficient -- thus inducing all the symptoms of vitamin K deficiency. He noted that arteriosclerosis could be reproduced in experimental animals by administering high doses of vitamin D alone. It seems plausible in view of all of the preceding literature.


Atherosclerosis of arteries of course, means a reduction of blood supply to those tissues and organs supplied by the affected arteries

--- Just an added thought. It suggests that taking higher doses of vitamin D may worsen the situation of vitamin K deficiencies
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby wolfhnd on October 9th, 2018, 10:42 am 

I have run across several articles such as the following.


https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vi ... k#section3

I don't have any background that allows me to evaluate the various claims. In addition variability between individuals seems to make generalization dangerous. I will say the best medical advice I have received over the years has come from veterinarian friends and was pretty conservative. Human medicine seems to both me and my wife to have become a nightmare of over prescribed drugs. The popular culture is even worse bouncing from one vitamin fad to another. The vitamin k issue seems different to me but who am I to say. Which leads me to the next problem which is how to get my wife to give it a try.

My wife claims that vitamins upset her stomach. Seems weird to me but her system is notable sensitive. For example I need to take the entire dose for colonoscopy prep but she only needs a quarter of it. Maybe vitamins really do upset her stomach. Caring for old people is a pain in as s :-)
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby TheVat on October 9th, 2018, 12:32 pm 

I wish you good luck, and good data, in you and your wife's quest for health. I hope your wife always take vitamins with a large meal (or the largest meal that she eats), which should provide some buffering of gastric irritation and also provide extra fats to help in absorption of fat soluble vits.

One suspicion I've had about the western diet (this is hypothesis generator stuff, not based on factual material) is that we get too much calcium in our diets after bone growth ends (ages 14-17) and that some D and K issues revolve around this. Humans did not evolve to nurse after age 3, or consume mass quantities of the nursing milk of other species. Examination of Cro-Magnon remains in Europe find some fairly robust people (average height around 5/10 in western Europe), skeletally speaking, in spite of not having milk or other high calcium foods in the diet. I would also note that modern cultures that don't use dairy foods have much lower rates of osteoporosis. It may be that lower calcium diets also means a lower requirement for D and K as well.
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Re: Vitamins: Waiting for Data

Postby doogles on October 9th, 2018, 5:26 pm 

wolfhnd, I had not seen that reference you posted previously, but my book 'Vitamin K or a Wheelchair' confirms every one of these points made in the article, plus more --
Vitamin D toxicity causes hypercalcemia: One symptom of extremely high vitamin D levels (toxicity) is hypercalcemia, a condition characterized by excessively high levels of calcium in the blood (13).
• Hypercalcemia leads to blood vessel calcification (BVC): In hypercalcemia, calcium and phosphorus levels become so high that calcium phosphate starts to accumulate in the lining of blood vessels.
• BVC is associated with heart disease: According to experts, blood vessel calcification is one of the main underlying causes of heart disease (14, 15).
• Vitamin K deficiency is associated with BVC: Observational studies have linked low vitamin K levels to an increased risk of blood vessel calcification (16).
• High-dose vitamin K supplements prevented BVC in animals: A controlled study in rats at a high risk of calcification showed that a high-dose vitamin K2 supplement prevented BVC (17).
• Vitamin K supplements may reduce BVC in humans: One controlled study in older people showed that supplementing with 500 mcg of vitamin K1 every day for three years slowed BVC by 6% (18).
• High vitamin K intake may reduce the risk of heart disease: People who get high amounts of vitamin K2 from their diet are at a reduced risk of blood vessel calcification and heart disease (19, 20, 21).

I've already stated that I have been unable to find any article on side effects of vitamin K. Obviously, if, as Sciameriken suggests, you may just need high doses of vitamin D, then, from the above, vitamin K will tend to protect against high vitamin D effects.

I've been taking a sublingual dose of 500 micrograms of vitamin K2-MK4 for over 4 years now -- just in case I was having absorption problems (it's in the book). These are made by a company called Superior Source. It comes up in Google. At one stage they produced a combination sublingual of 500 micrograms K2:K4, 500 micrograms K1 plus 100 micrograms K2:MK7. I have a vague recall that when I looked at their site, that their products included sublinguals in many vitamins. I'm not sure, but vitamin D may have been one of them. They specialise in sublinguals.
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