Are black and white colors?

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Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on July 25th, 2017, 7:03 am 

I was just reading a page about color theory and the interesting claim was made that depending on the kind of color theory in use, black and white may not be colors. For example, black is an absence of color while white is a mix of colors. But equally, while white might be a mix of colors, it is also an absence of colors (you cannot mix colors to produce white).

However, isn't the more correct answer that black and white ARE colors? After all, colors are simply an internal convention for describing a state of excitation of retinal neurons (OK, there's more to it than that, but you get my drift).

So all visual subjective experience represents a variety of "colors" and any object reflecting any mix of frequencies (including all or none) therefore creates a color experience. Black is the lack of neuronal response to EM radiation, white is a generally equal distribution of excitation, and other colors fall somewhere into this spectrum of neuronal responses by our retinas (again I'm simplifying!).

Technically then, all EM wavelengths up to maybe 400nm cause a "black" experience, as do all wavelengths above say 700nm, and mixes of wavelengths cause the familiar experience of spectrum colors.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby uninfinite on July 25th, 2017, 7:37 am 

Marks and Spencers do underpants in a range of colours "including black and white." Case closed - I think you'll find!
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Watson on July 25th, 2017, 9:49 am 

I suppose it depends on the theory, and the colors, or source of the color. From an artist's point of view, I see both black and white as the absence of color, and as a paint they only serve to shade or tint the colors on the palette. But even the Titanium White that I use as "white" is actually a muddy off-white, which can be frustrating if it is contrary to the white I'm looking for. Like an off white, towards the cerulean blue would appear a bit brighter.
And house painters put a drop of black or blue in the can of ceiling paint to soften the stark white, and dampen the reflective quality of the painted surface.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on July 25th, 2017, 4:03 pm 

I should point out that I meant biologically speaking. Various kinds of color theory address pigments and so on in terms of the physical media, I was more coming at it from a biological perspective. If "colors" represent through a biological process, then in that sense we could describe color in terms of what neuronal responses result in what colors. I imagine, from a fairly naive knowledge of the biology, that colors are instantiated from a statistical sampling process in the brain - which proportion of cells respond to what wavelengths, which means that black and white serve to represent certain actual physical properties of neuronal responses (ie the range of possible responses range from no response to all cells responding equally, though I realise that's a simplification).
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby dandelion on July 30th, 2017, 2:55 pm 

This has been mentioned a number of times before at this site, including by me, but thought I'd add it again here since it involves perceptions of black and white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby someguy1 on July 30th, 2017, 3:48 pm 

uninfinite » July 25th, 2017, 5:37 am wrote:Marks and Spencers do underpants in a range of colours "including black and white." Case closed - I think you'll find!


I spent much time evaluating the evidence.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on July 31st, 2017, 6:05 am 

Are black and white colours ?
To my way of thinking... No more or less so, than any of the recognised and accepted colours in the "visible" spectrum.
Colours are biologically produced representations, of close yet different wavelengths of the electromagnetic spectrum. They don't really exist as a property of light.

Our senses have allotted colours to both the absence or full compliment of wavelengths in the visible spectrum, plus all the wavelengths within that very narrow band of the EMS we know as the visible spectrum , any wavelengths shorter or longer than those in that band are invisible to us.
If false colours, or even monochrome, are allotted to wavelengths that are either side of our perception, X-ray images can be manufactured on one side of that portion of the spectrum and radio telescopic images on the other side.

We perceive black when none of the wavelengths in our visible spectrum are observed and white when wavelengths of all the primary colours are detected simultaneously.
while white might be a mix of colors, it is also an absence of colors (you cannot mix colors to produce white)

I can understand why it is impossible to make the colour we perceive as white by mixing pigments that absorb different wavelengths of light, because as soon as any of the primary colours are absorbed by those pigments and thereby removed from the equation, the resulting perceived colour cannot be white. However if you make a pie chart, with equal slices of the primary colours , cut it out, put a stick through the middle of it, then spin it like a top. you will perceive the disk as being white.

Black and white are biologically detected, biologically representations, of either an absence of detectable frequencies of light, or the sum of all frequencies of visible light.
Primary colours are biological representations of specific frequencies. However, at the end of the day, because all colours are biologically produced representations I believe that black and white should also be considered as colours.

The best answer is..... "There is no indisputable answer !" its all down to a matter of opinion.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on July 31st, 2017, 4:06 pm 

I had to dash off before I completed the previous post, In which I had meant to touch on the subject of synesthesia. Our sense of vision suggests to our brain that the sky is blue. yet to some individuals blue is perceived as a frequency of sound.
I can't help but wonder what black and white might "sound" like.

Got to go now, as I have a 115 mile commute to work. fortunately about two thirds of it is on three lane highway, but it's still a bit of a bind. (Especially the 115 mile return leg during rush hour.) Hmm, life can be a bitch at times.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Braininvat on July 31st, 2017, 6:05 pm 

I would rent a hovel composed of plywood and used axle grease over commuting 115 miles. You have my sympathy, but not my unqualified support for your fossil fuel intensive lifestyle. Not that this is relevant to anything. Just razzing you a little.

I think there's a strong argument that natural language is sufficient to impose boundaries on meaning, in this case. White is not a color, but rather a blend of all of them. Black is an absence. Color should, at least in this delineation of semantic boundaries, refer to specific ranges of wavelength that we denote with color words like red, green, purple, and so on. I guess I'm going for a Correspondence theory of meaning, in this case, i.e. green corresponds to light of wavelengths from 480nm-540nm (just made that up, don't take that as accurate) as they impact my optical system. This is where all you smart people start yelling stuff like "But what if an alien saw the same thing as we see when we see green, but they were seeing a different set of wavelengths down in the infrared?" To which I would say that correspondence, in this case, is specific to a place and species and members of that species with normal vision. Correspondence doesn't have to be universal, right? Everything has a domain of meaning in which it makes sense and we can agree on the meaning.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 1st, 2017, 1:21 pm 

Hi BIV, I'm well aware of the general consensus of where black and white fit, or should I say "don't fit" into what we refer to as the visible spectrum of light. (As most obviously you and Graeme are too.)
However it could well be, that none of the colours in the visible spectrum are actually properties of white light, instead they are likely produced by biological and neuronal activity in our brain which then allots these manufactured colours to specific wavelength of light. If all colours in the visible spectrum are actually produced by our biological and neuronal instruments of sight, then our brains interpretations of black and white should be considered as colours too.
This is what Graeme M was alluding to in his OP and is something I too have considered in the past

I was just thinking how nicely this thread would tie in with the concurrently running thread, titled... "Is it reality that we perceive," as the subjects are closely related.

Regards, Graham.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Braininvat on August 1st, 2017, 5:55 pm 

I see what you are getting at. Definition seems to depend on where the locus of its causal elements is located. If we put that locus in the brain, then we could certainly define B/W as colors, since the neural processes of handling the incoming light would be kindred to each other. If the locus were with the photons that are arriving at the eye, then their most salient feature would be wavelength and the differing energies that differing wavelengths have. IOW, there is a genuine physical account of what's "out there" that can honestly say "there is an objective physical quality of light at 620 nanometers that causes humans with normal vision to say, hey, I see red!" OTOH, there is no wavelength, by itself, that causes anyone to say they see white. But, if our definition is neurological, then we can indeed say, "there is a set of neural firings along specific pathways that will result in someone saying they see white." And so, from that perspective, it is another experience in the family called Seeing Colors.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Dave_Oblad on August 2nd, 2017, 12:17 pm 

Hi All,

One could also ask if Magenta is a color. It doesn't appear in a rainbow but we all see the color in some flowers for example. Magenta is a mix of Blue and Red on opposite ends of the visible light spectrum. It is a Color but not a single color frequency.

Color.jpg
Color addition chart

It is also interesting that there exists multiple colors that are both real and not real. Yellow for example. It has a specific frequency (around 575 nm) and can be produced by a sodium gas bulb. But yellow on most computer monitors is a mix of Red and Green pixels and is not a true yellow light.

So some colors are Real (red) and some are Interpretations (magenta).

What I've always wanted to know.. is the Color in my Minds-Eye the same as yours.. for the same color?

Meaning.. I look at the sky and I see blue. But if I could look into your Mind.. I might find the color you mentally assigned to Blue input stimulation would be my definition of Red. Is there anyway to know?

Regards,
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 6th, 2017, 6:14 pm 

Hi Dave,

(Just in case you're wondering, I have to spell "colour" this way, as the American English version looks so wrong to me.)

What I've always wanted to know.. is the Color in my Minds-Eye the same as yours.. for the same color?

Meaning.. I look at the sky and I see blue. But if I could look into your Mind.. I might find the color you mentally assigned to Blue input stimulation would be my definition of Red. Is there anyway to know?


Even if our personal perception of colours differs. We will still agree on the names given to those colours regardless of whether the same colour is being perceived or not
You and I have both learned from an early age that the sky appears to be blue, so no matter what colour we actually see, we will know that colour as blue. The same principle applies to the colour yellow, again no matter what colour we actually perceive, we will call that colour yellow because we know from experience that the colour which matches that of bananas and lemons is yellow. I realise you already understand this principal, which is why you are asking if anyone has an answer to this rather interesting question.(To which I would also like an answer.)
I don't personally believe that there is a definitive answer to the question, but if anyone has one, I would very much like to hear it.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Dave_Oblad on August 6th, 2017, 7:18 pm 

Hi Curiosity,

As I see it (pun) our eyes produce 3 stimulation signals for Red, Blue and Green. These electrical signals have no innate colour. Call them A, B, and C. For colours in between, we get percentage or strength information of each signal for A, B, and C mixed. So in my minds eye.. I have assigned a specific color to C as the one I see when looking at a Blue sky. But someone one else could just as easily assign signal C to what I would have called Green or Red.

I know you get that.. but I wonder how many others have also pondered about such?

Regards,
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 7th, 2017, 7:18 am 

Hi again Dave
"Just to add another layer of confusion..."

The majority of us humans are (as per your diagram) trichromats, but an evolutionary throwback that mainly occurs in women, gives some members of our species tetrachromatic vision.
Instead of having the normal count of three types of colour receptive cells, these individuals have a fourth type of cell which can detect an additional colour. (a colour which most of us are blind to) What that colour looks like, or how mixing that colour with those colours that I can perceive, then alters the perception of those colours, for the person who can actually see the extra colour. Is I suppose a question I will will never really know the answer to.

Sight is a wonderful, if somewhat complicated sense, which uses a high percentage of our brains power to run. constructing an image using reflected wavelengths of light is an impressive accomplishment of mother nature and the way our visual organs are also able to add colour to the representations; derived from the way substances trap certain wavelengths of light and convert them to heat, whilst rejecting and reflecting other wavelengths, boggles the mind.. Perhaps our time would be better spent thinking about the easy stuff, like space-time for instance. lol

"Keep on contemplating!"
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby neuro on August 7th, 2017, 12:44 pm 

Whatever the definition of "color", if it is rigorous it will also include black and white.
Though we often refer to RGB, because this is also the way we perceive colors, a color is better interpreted in terms of hue, saturation and luminance.
Hue defines the dominant region (wavelength) of light spectrum, i.e. where the band of wavelengths is centered.
Saturation defines the bandwidth, from a pure color to gray.
Luminance defines the total power.
When color saturation tends to zero, we move to a gray-scale; here white will be the limit for maximal luminance (maximal excitation of a film, or of retinal photoreceptors, or whatever is the sensor), black will be the limit for no signal (not enough photons to be detected by the film, the photoreceptors or whatever).

The statement above that white is not a mixture of colors is incorrect: if you mix colored lights of all wavelengths you get white. One, as a child, has the impression that a mix of colors cannot but make things darker and darker, down to black, but this is because when you use color pencils you keep subtracting (not adding) color, in that you absorb some wavelenghts and keep reducing the light that will be reflected by your drawing.

As for the subjective perception of colors, Dave, the computation is so complex, already in the retina, that subjective perception may certainly be different among subjects, especially when contrast between neightboring colors is considered.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 9th, 2017, 6:32 am 

I'm glad that there is some agreement that black and white are "colors" if considered from a biological perspective. That just makes sense to my understanding of color perception.

But now I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that everyone's perception of colors is identical (providing that they have typical visual systems).

By this I mean that when I see red, you too see red. And so too does everyone else. I agree there should be differences in actual physical responses to relevant wavelengths, but their instantiation as colors carry no inherent quality at all. In fact I am going to suggest color is likely to be entirely learned.

My proposition is that a color has no actual quality to it. I do not think we can offer a sound definition of red, for example, that carries objective weight and does not utilise a physical description of wavelength, frequency, retinal cell response etc. All we can do is describe red in either metaphorical senses (red as a rose) or comparative terms (that rose is red, not yellow).
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 9th, 2017, 6:46 am 

By the way Curiosity, isn't it the case that tetrachromats do not perceive an additional color, rather that they have greater discrimination within existing wavelengths? So they discern two different shades where trichromats see one, for example. My guess too is that as Neuro points out, differences in number and distribution of cells and the subsequent computations mean that individuals vary in their ability to discriminate between various shades of color (no idea what the correct term here is - is it just color, shade, hue, what?). So while the broader population agree on what is red or blue, showing that same population say 1000 different shades of blue might result in some people discerning more or less of these than others.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Braininvat on August 9th, 2017, 9:43 am 

Graeme M » August 9th, 2017, 3:32 am wrote:I'm glad that there is some agreement that black and white are "colors" if considered from a biological perspective. That just makes sense to my understanding of color perception.

But now I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that everyone's perception of colors is identical (providing that they have typical visual systems).

By this I mean that when I see red, you too see red. And so too does everyone else....


Agree. For me, neurological similarity in humans would suggest (Ockham's razor) phenomenal similarity. And the way our emotional responses to colors (red is exciting, warning, appetite stimulating, and so on) are quite congruent would also suggest we are seeing the same red, phenomenologically speaking.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 10th, 2017, 10:44 pm 

[quote][/quote]By the way Curiosity, isn't it the case that tetrachromats do not perceive an additional color, rather that they have greater discrimination within existing wavelengths? So they discern two different shades where trichromats see one, for example. My guess too is that as Neuro points out, differences in number and distribution of cells and the subsequent computations mean that individuals vary in their ability to discriminate between various shades of color (no idea what the correct term here is - is it just color, shade, hue, what?). So while the broader population agree on what is red or blue, showing that same population say 1000 different shades of blue might result in some people discerning more or less of these than others.

Unfortunately whether tetrachromats , perceive colours which trichromats cannot, is an unanswerable question.
Colours are associated with particular frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, If we don't have a cone cell that reacts with a given frequency, then we are blind to that frequency, so we see "nothing".

We can't "see" at radio wave frequencies, but if we construct a machine which uses false colours (Which in this instance include black and white) to represent radio wave frequencies, that machine can produce a viable image from those radio wave frequencies . This is the concept behind radio telescopes; with x-ray machines using the same basic principle to produce x-ray images.

I can only offer an opinion, which is...
little practical gain in evolutionary terms, would come from evolving an additional type of cone cell that did no more than add a few shades to colours we already perceive. Whereas being able to perceive colours we were previously blind to, could for some reason be advantageous. I'm putting my money (metaphorically) on tetrachromats perceiving colour/colours us trichromats are blind and oblivious to.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 11th, 2017, 12:27 am 

Curiosity, I may have misunderstood what I've read. I gathered that the extra cone cell isn't sensitive to additional wavelengths outside of the typical range trichromats perceive. It's just a genetic effect like having an extra finger - it doesn't actually do anything different.

What that means is that the extra cell's response profile may be the same as, or slightly different from, an existing "typical" cell. In that way, its sensitivity might hit a maximum slightly one side or the other of one of the existing cone cells. As a result tetrachromats might not perceive anything different from a trichromat.

If you imagine that the extra cone cell simply responds to wavelengths in the same range as a standard cone cell or even has a maximum sensitivity just a few nm off that then that person won't see anything different from me. But if the response curve fits neatly between two existing typical cells, then they will perceive subtle variations in colors that I won't.

This is a good summary:

https://theneurosphere.com/2015/12/17/t ... e-colours/
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 11th, 2017, 7:47 am 

I did some digging and here's an interesting article in terms of my comment above about differences in detailed color perception across a population. Given the article I linked above suggests that a fourth cone might have different response curve distributions across the population of tetrachromats, it makes me wonder how much this might be so for the standard trichromats and what that means. Anyway, in the test linked below I'm not sure that I can discriminate some colors or whether I am using the dividing lines, but I get around 32-34 separate colors. No idea if this is a real test that shows anything but it's intriguing!

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/25-peopl ... ana-derval
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 13th, 2017, 3:47 pm 

Most sincere apologies for not responding sooner Graeme, its due to my having to provide cover for a sick work colleague, plus a mix up in an others vacation dates. This unfortunate situation left me with a very heavy workload over the past two weeks.

Starting work at stupid o'clock in the morning, then finishing at ridiculous o'clock at night, Is hardly my idea of fun and left me feeling rather the worse for wear. Things are looking brighter after a good nights sleep though and I am looking forward to another well earned rest tonight.

Getting back to the matter in hand... I have no doubt that you are aware of a medical condition called synesthesia, in which the affected persons senses seem to be cross-wired, which leads in some cases to them being able to hear in colour.
If colour was a property of light rather than a construct of the brain, which is linking frequencies of light to constructed colours, this would not be possible.
An interesting experiment to conduct is, to sit in a darkened room, turn on a high wattage lamp and look directly at it for a minute or two. If you then turn out the light, sit in the now dark room and blink your eyes rapidly, you will see a succession of vividly coloured after-images. Interestingly if you turn of the high wattage light and switch on a low wattage light, then look at a light coloured surface while blinking rapidly, you will once again see the succession of coloured after images, but in the second scenario the "colour"? of the last after-image will be black.

If, "as I believe", colours are constructs of a sentient beings brain, rather than properties of light, I see no reason why, as yet unknown colours, cannot be allotted to frequencies of the electromagnetic spectrum above or below what we refer to as visible light. All that would be needed is cone cells capable of detecting and reacting to those extra higher or lower frequencies, which could then send a message to our brain, telling it to construct the as yet unknown colours.



Regards, Graham.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 13th, 2017, 11:07 pm 

Hi Graham, sorry to hear things are a bit tight! Like you I love it when I can get a decent night's sleep, it makes all the difference.

Yes, I completely agree - colour must be a totally constructed artefact (although we could also talk about just what that in itself means), as must all other elements of subjective experience. All feelings of the world do not exist in the world as such.

Re synesthesia, I am not sure that the affected person actually hears in colour or sees in sound, more that they have a subjective experience of the other modality. For example, on hearing a certain sound, a synesthate would experience the sound and the colour purple. Or see numbers in particular colours. If they actually heard in colour then I suspect they'd be effectively deaf!

My point re the kinds of colour experienced by tetrachromats is that as far as I know, the fourth cone cell doesn't respond to colours above or below the standard range of wavelengths to which the human eye is tuned. So they just get to distinguish more shades of known colours. My suspicion is that without some kind of adaptation further downstream in the visual system, it would be impossible for a subjective experience of an unknown colour, even if the cone cell could respond to say a much lower wavelength.

By the way, your use of language suggests you are Australian, yes?
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Dave_Oblad on August 14th, 2017, 6:46 am 

Hi all,

Back in the late 60's I experimented a bit with LSD. I can attest to the cross wiring of the senses. A white surface could shift through geometries of many colors, sounds had a smell and sometimes triggered color shifts or had a funny taste. One time everything black colored looked cherry red and kinda glowed. I don't recommend experimenting with LSD.. it can be very disturbing if one accepts their sensory inputs as real. For example, one moment my skin looked like an orange peel and a moment later looked like it was covered in ants. Bushes would reach for me as I passed them.

Of course, my friends and myself didn't trust ourselves to drive.. so we just strolled down to a nearby park and watched the tree's crawling about. Time was also totally out of whack.. cars seemed to creep by on the road and then sometimes flashed past in a blaze of colors. Sometimes my head felt like it was floating without a body underneath.

But back to colors.. during the day the blue sky transitioned through many shades of color, sometimes purple and sometime pink then green even. This is why I find the concept of seeing a color is so subjective.

Gotta hit the sack. I threw out my hip last week moving stuff in my garage.. Now I can barely walk.. and I have to pack up my house in a week or so to move to Arizona. Lousy timing for an injury.

I will probably have to disappear for a few weeks at the end of this month until I get settled into a new place.

Wish me luck..

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby Graeme M on August 14th, 2017, 7:00 am 

Good luck with the move Dave. Why on earth Arizona?

I really like this sentence: "so we just strolled down to a nearby park and watched the tree's crawling about"...
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 14th, 2017, 7:56 am 

Excellent Graeme, Someone who really does understand.

Although I know what I meant to say, I wasn't fortunate enough to gain a proper education, so even though I am in fact English, I don't use my native tongue as well as I possibly should. So, in any conversation with me it is sometimes necessary to read between the lines. I am aware, as you quite rightly state, that synesthetes experience pairings of their senses. For instance; they may hear the word nine and simultaneously experience the colour blue. A rather interesting aspect to this is, that many synesthetes link the same, or very close colours, to specific words. ( I'm not even going to go there... but if you have any thoughts on why that might be, please do share them.)

I spent quite a lot of time investigating the homing ability of pigeons and discovered that pigeons, which do have extra types of cone cells, (compared to humans,) can most likely see UV light as a separate colour. Being able to see UV as a separate colour would be essential in order for a pigeon to locate the position of the sun and possibly even the stars, on a cloudy or overcast day.
I of course agree that any additional colour a person or creature could perceive, would when added to the existing colours create many more shades of those existing colours.
I also understand why only wavelengths in what we refer to as the visible spectrum are used to generate our sense of sight. Focusing UV or IR wavelengths through a lens onto our retinas, would not be a wise idea and would likely damage the tissue of the retina. so instead these wavelengths get filtered out. Avians have a structure in their eyes called a pecten, which is theorised among other things, as being a cooling system for the eye, This purpose would tie in nicely with my own theory and be necessary to avoid tissue damage, if UV was indeed being focused on the retinas of their eyes.

I am wandering way off topic here, So I will sign off now. If you have an interest in the homing instinct/sense of birds, we could maybe discuss it further in another post, I must admit that I am completely bewildered by the way avian s manage to synchronise their body clocks with such split second accuracy. (An accurate clock is an essential component of any navigational system.) "Maybe another persons point of view could solve, or help to solve this mystery!"

Regards Graham.
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 14th, 2017, 7:56 am 

Excellent Graeme, Someone who really does understand.

Although I know what I meant to say, I wasn't fortunate enough to gain a proper education, so even though I am in fact English, I don't use my native tongue as well as I possibly should. So, in any conversation with me it is sometimes necessary to read between the lines. I am aware, as you quite rightly state, that synesthetes experience pairings of their senses. For instance; they may hear the word nine and simultaneously experience the colour blue. A rather interesting aspect to this is, that many synesthetes link the same, or very close colours, to specific words. ( I'm not even going to go there... but if you have any thoughts on why that might be, please do share them.)

I spent quite a lot of time investigating the homing ability of pigeons and discovered that pigeons, which do have extra types of cone cells, (compared to humans,) can most likely see UV light as a separate colour. Being able to see UV as a separate colour would be essential in order for a pigeon to locate the position of the sun and possibly even the stars, on a cloudy or overcast day.
I of course agree that any additional colour a person or creature could perceive, would when added to the existing colours create many more shades of those existing colours.
I also understand why only wavelengths in what we refer to as the visible spectrum are used to generate our sense of sight. Focusing UV or IR wavelengths through a lens onto our retinas, would not be a wise idea and would likely damage the tissue of the retina. so instead these wavelengths get filtered out. Avians have a structure in their eyes called a pecten, which is theorised among other things, as being a cooling system for the eye, This purpose would tie in nicely with my own theory and be necessary to avoid tissue damage, if UV was indeed being focused on the retinas of their eyes.

I am wandering way off topic here, So I will sign off now. If you have an interest in the homing instinct/sense of birds, we could maybe discuss it further in another post, I must admit that I am completely bewildered by the way avian s manage to synchronise their body clocks with such split second accuracy. (An accurate clock is an essential component of any navigational system.) "Maybe another persons point of view could solve, or help to solve this mystery!"

Regards Graham.
curiosity
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Re: Are black and white colors?

Postby curiosity on August 14th, 2017, 8:20 am 

Oops, My mouse is about ready for the bin. The right click has become sticky... It seems I cross posted with you Dave.
Hmm... Seeing is believing. "Sometimes"
curiosity
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