What is spacetime made of?

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What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 20th, 2011, 8:03 pm 

What physical space itself is actually made of is of course a very interesting question. What time itself is actually made of is a much easier question to answer because time itself does not objectively exist physically in the first place, as I have already discussed many many times on the forum.

Most scientists believe time spatially exists "everywhere" in the physical universe and this is not true. This also has lead them to the wrong conclusion that everywhere a physical space exists time must also exist ergo spacetime. I am not saying spacetime is an illusion, at least in a mathematical or scientifc sense, because it does work at least in regards to GPS systems and the like, but this same spacetime has no objective physical existence anywhere because only physical space actually exists in objective physical reality. So what is space"time" actually made of? Space and only space. Time is not actually "interwoven" with the space like many believe.

I actually got kicked out of the SCF forum years ago for talking about this exact same subject because I personally believe that I was making way too much sense discussing this same topic at least from a philosophical viewpoint, and that is of course the reason why I had to grit my teeth and did not actually participate to any great extent in the current discussion about the same subject.

I was also told at the same time that someone can't make any philosophical comments in SCF and yet I see people making philosophical comments in the current thread; or for example, the "maybe spacetime is(or is made of) nothingness" comment in the current thread ??? And that is also the same reason that I am starting the exact same type of thread on the PCF side .

A personal disclaimer: And despite the possibility of my sounding personally arrogant; I have been down this road many times before on both sides of forum(and other science forums in the past); You should know that the question of what is time is by far the most difficult question in the history of science, and I consider myself personally an expert on at least the philosophical side of the same subject(I have personally spent 16 years working on this same subject, and have two personal copyrights on the same subject. I was also the first old or modern philosopher in history to ever actually figure out the "what is nothing existing question", and I also have one copyright on this)

If someone responds to my post, and I can tell that they did not understand what I was saying about a particular issue basically because they did not personally bother to think a great deal about what I was trying to say on the same issue, I may not even bother wasting my personal time in trying to respond to your lazy response or question.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby owleye on December 21st, 2011, 2:21 pm 

Despite your protestations that this is a topic you've explored for years on many different forums and that on that basis you will not entertain comments from lazy respondents, it would be helpful to me if you would provide something useful to orient me on what you mean by space-time? Is it (as it appears to be in reading your post) your contention that space-tiime doesn't exist? If so, I suppose the question of the topic answers itself in that case. You seem to indicate that time doesn't exist, presumably because, for one, it's not like space, and for the other the time we believe exists is only observed as that which as elapsed when material objects change in some way. Space, however, unlike time, does exist despite that it, too, is only observed as differences in position taken up by objects. Unlike time, objects exist based on their being within it. Only the present exists -- thus, references to the past or future are merely imaginings. It is rather ostentatious that someone would say that if I'd left the house 5 seconds earlier I wouldn't have missed the train. These are just imaginings, so aren't worthy of consideration. Never mind that we teach our children to make sure they don't miss the school bus.

In such a universe, space is permanently fixed, infinite in extent in three dimensions, and objects are placed within it, appearing to move or change in accordance with rules set down by the laws of nature, which, unfortunately require a time coordinate to make sense of them.

These lazy ramblings are what I get from reading your post. If I don't hear a response I'll assume you've written me off, which is ok, since if you haven't any interest in convincing me of something then I can move on. It's no big deal.

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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 21st, 2011, 5:56 pm 

Owleye,

Thank you for responding Owleye. No, I am not saying spacetime does not exist at least to man, or this is an illusion at least in a mathematical sense; Spacetime is a mathematical model that man invented that combines space and time into a single entity.

What I am actually trying to say in all of this is yes, space exists physically, but time "itself" does not also exist physically in any way, so it is a mistake for anyone to believe the two can be combined into a physical entity called spacetime.

When I make a distinction here between time existing and time "itself" existing, I am basically saying that there is no distinct thing in the universe that is "itself" only made up or composed of only time "itself" existing anywhere in the universe. Man calls a number of different things time or time existing somewhere(or the movement of a clock for example) but none of the same things are ever time "itself" existing anywhere; This is always something else existing itselfsomewhere(or again a clock) never time "itself" existing anywhere(this distinction is really really complicated and very hard to understand and it took me years to completely understand this)

Another mistake man makes is this idea that time or time "itself" exists everywhere in the universe when time was again something that man invented here on earth(as I have explained many many times on the forum).

Could I ask you a few questions? Do you personally believe that spacetime is a physical entity? If you do, what is space physically made of, and what is time physically made of, or ergo, what is spacetime physically made of then? (I am not feeling very well today, so my posts and responses may be rather short)
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby NeoTheseus on December 22nd, 2011, 9:14 am 

Greetings all,
This is my very first posting, so please bear with me. My thought on this subject is this here. I believe for ease of discussion that spacetime can be lumped together. However, I do agree that they are district and very different.

I believe that space, which is 3 diminsional, exists WITHIN time. The persistent question though remains; what is time. I also believe that time may be the synchronous movement, changing, or metabolism of this observed reality. For instance, we can consider the new car compared to the rusted car decades later, or at least one big snowstorm later. Another instance, as seen in the Old Testament, time being measured from the reign of one king to the next. Another example, which is a lot more simple and base, one generation or one reproductive cycle to the next.

If we were to take this a level higher, if there is a supreme being, does this entity exist within time or outside of time? If s/he exists within time, wouldn't that make time supreme? If this being exists outside of time, how necessary is time when it comes to existing? Also, can man exist outside of time?

I don't know if this posting cleared up anything, but I think that these things are clear: 1. Time is very different than space. 2. Time is not a substance, so can not be measured within the 3 diminsions of space. 3. Time is passage. The means or markers of this passage can be whatever one desires. It can be the sun, moon, stars, generations, or life cycles. It is a way for us, in this realm of existance, to put any meaning to the things and events arounds us.

Critiques invited. Humbly submitted...
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby Fuqin on December 22nd, 2011, 9:46 am 

Hi Roj I used to think time was merely an abstraction (not physical) however it occurred to me in view of gravitational time dilation that it really is a physical thing or better put a force or a field that both effects matter and is effected by matter ,give this a read it’s not very long
Time dilation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
Experimental_confirmation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation#Experimental_confirmation
Now if time can be effected it must have some substantive property’s , saying that time is perhaps not physical might be similar to saying gravity isn’t physical , in layman’s terms that’s kind of true you can’t observe it directly, you can only measure it and experience it.
Hope that’s some help :)
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby moranity on December 22nd, 2011, 9:51 am 

it seems to me that "spacetime" is a tool for predicting the "path" of change.
We know that when change occurs it follows certain patterns, for instance two objects will tend to approach each other, all other things being equal. "Spacetime" is the tool we use to predict the effects of this tendency
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby Fuqin on December 22nd, 2011, 10:58 am 

NeoTheseus
1. Time is very different than space.

Hmmm I don’t know about that, space is often thought of as am empty container that one might be able to extract all of the energy and matter from, but apparently that’s not the case if you did space would collapse, I believe although I may be mistaken that space is a potential field, filled with virtual particles, as such space and time are interdependent ergo (space/time). If you can imagine for example a universe ( a space) without any light gravity or mass it will still take you time to traverse it. I try to think of it this way space and time are two expressions of a single phenomenon.
2. Time is not a substance, so can not be measured within the 3 diminsions of space.

Actually and as above it necessary for space to exist in order to measure time
3. Time is passage. The means or markers of this passage can be whatever one desires. It can be the sun, moon, stars, generations, or life cycles. It is a way for us, in this realm of existance, to put any meaning to the things and events around us.

Well I get where you’re coming from but if you read the wiki links I posted youl get why its not so abstract and however you mark it, its behaviour will remain consistent ,per light year in seconds per hour in Kilometres or miles , per full moon in cubits or if your Klingon kellicams per kilaan or 22.5 standard minutes.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 11:42 am 

Also greetings to you NeoTheseus, and welcome to our forum,

Nothing literally exists in time, or inside of time, including of course God, space, and you and me. And yes, you are right in your statement that time is not a substance of any kind.

What is time? Time is basically a synchronized measuring system that man invented that measures the rotational and orbital motion of the earth around the sun in it's annual journey around the same, using clocks watches and calendars that are synchronized to the same rate of motion(the very short version)
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 12:02 pm 

Hi Fuqin, how are things "down under"?

I believe you were actually right in your initial thoughts on the subject of time, or it is not a physical substance of any kind. I believe "time dilation" was always a big mistake, and may soon go the way of the possible illusion of e=mc2.

While I am on the same subject, why am I the only one on this science forum who seems to actually be aware of the very recent huge controversy regarding e=mc2?(duh?)
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 12:07 pm 

moranity wrote:it seems to me that "spacetime" is a tool for predicting the "path" of change.
We know that when change occurs it follows certain patterns, for instance two objects will tend to approach each other, all other things being equal. "Spacetime" is the tool we use to predict the effects of this tendency


Moranity,

What do you think spacetime is made of?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby Fuqin on December 22nd, 2011, 1:15 pm 

Down unders good, normally it’s too hot to leave the house this time of year; it’s more like autumn and we have record rain falls and so on.

Please consider this, as I said you wouldn’t call gravity physical but it’s an overtly real phenomenon, time is likewise , just something to consider ;)
While I am on the same subject, why am I the only one on this science forum who seems to actually be aware of the very recent huge controversy regarding e=mc2?(duh?)


Do you have a link to this controversy?
you may not be aware but its customary to support your ideas with some kind of reference.
I know there is a potential paradigm shift owning to some quantum theories but I’d have to do a couple of months reading just to get the basics, and without some modicum of knowledge about this I really can’t see how this affects gravitational time dilation any more than Emc2 effects newtons universal law of circular motion, they have Experimental confirmation and that’s well good enough for me.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 1:59 pm 

Fuqin wrote:Down unders good, normally it’s too hot to leave the house this time of year; it’s more like autumn and we have record rain falls and so on.

Please consider this, as I said you wouldn’t call gravity physical but it’s an overtly real phenomenon, time is likewise , just something to consider ;)
While I am on the same subject, why am I the only one on this science forum who seems to actually be aware of the very recent huge controversy regarding e=mc2?(duh?)


Do you have a link to this controversy?
you may not be aware but its customary to support your ideas with some kind of reference.
I know there is a potential paradigm shift owning to some quantum theories but I’d have to do a couple of months reading just to get the basics, and without some modicum of knowledge about this I really can’t see how this affects gravitational time dilation any more than Emc2 effects newtons universal law of circular motion, they have Experimental confirmation and that’s well good enough for me.


Fuqin,

Check out http://www.inquisitr.com

Also do a general google search on e=mc2 might be wrong?(I don't know how to post links on the forum) Please get back to me after you have had a chance to do this. This was also a very big story on the internet news a few weeks back. This observation that e=mc2 might be wrong actually happened at CERN!
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 2:05 pm 

Thank you to whoever posted that link for me, but I can't find the specific topic I was talking about from this link?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby owleye on December 22nd, 2011, 2:43 pm 

ronjanec wrote:Owleye,

Thank you for responding Owleye. No, I am not saying spacetime does not exist at least to man, or this is an illusion at least in a mathematical sense; Spacetime is a mathematical model that man invented that combines space and time into a single entity.


This is quibbling. Your 'exists for me' idea of space-time, if it be merely a mathematical construct -- a model -- for describing something, then what you seem to be saying is that what it is a model of is a fiction. Right? There is no reality to what space-time models. This is your position. It's not real -- no independent existence.

ronjanec wrote:What I am actually trying to say in all of this is yes, space exists physically, but time "itself" does not also exist physically in any way, so it is a mistake for anyone to believe the two can be combined into a physical entity called spacetime.


So you say. You will note that I at least introduced a couple of possible ways for this to be understood on your behalf, whereas you merely tell us in bald terms what's real and what's not. Fair enough, I suppose. When it comes to discussions of what exists, we have to start somewhere, I suppose. Let me note that I have my doubts that you have any insight on what current science has to say about these topics.

ronjanec wrote:When I make a distinction here between time existing and time "itself" existing, I am basically saying that there is no distinct thing in the universe that is "itself" only made up or composed of only time "itself" existing anywhere in the universe.


What I find interesting about material things we might think of as real -- say the sun, the moon and the planet we call Earth, is that their existence is a matter of historical record -- i.e, however brief we consider such things existing, they to have existed for some elapsed period of time. Some amount of time has to have elapsed in order that we would count these things as real. There is no such thing as an existing thing if its existence is taken as having no time element associated with it. Such things must have persisted if only for a fleeting instant of time in order to say it existed.

Then again, your 'distinction' will think this is quite proper. Such things aren't composed of time "itself". While their existence depends on an elapsed time, time, itself, is not an entity that is taken up by such things. Time, itself, is not something that can be incorporated, because, in your view, there's no substance to it. Given this way of thinking about time and time, itself, one might turn this analysis on space, and space, itself, to see if the same can be said of it. As Lomax has noticed a time or two, he finds that most folks find it more difficult to deny the existence of space, itself, than time, itself, despite what Kant had to say about all this. I suspect part of this is due to how the brain creates a space for objects to appear to us -- and the importance that our visual field, ignoring, for example, the significance of a more time-centered aural field, one from which language itself originated.

ronjanec wrote:Another mistake man makes is this idea that time or time "itself" exists everywhere in the universe when time was again something that man invented here on earth(as I have explained many many times on the forum).


I've not read anything you've written where you've presented this idea. Despite this, I get the strong impression that what you claim of "man's" mistake is no more than a straw man. I don't know of anyone who takes up the position that time, itself, in the way you depict it, much less invented it, except possibly you in the argument you wish to demonstrate your insights. It's easy to make a case against a straw man. For example, I've been fighting for years against folks who believe the earth is flat.

ronjanec wrote:Could I ask you a few questions? Do you personally believe that spacetime is a physical entity? If you do, what is space physically made of, and what is time physically made of, or ergo, what is spacetime physically made of then? (I am not feeling very well today, so my posts and responses may be rather short)


Well, I don't know. I tend to think of space and time as relations, not things. With respect to space-time, I believe its significance is that it helps explain matter in motion, motion itself being relative, not absolute.

Note that modern science (in consideration of relativity theory) has pretty much abandoned the idea of 'substance' (in the sense in which I believe you are making use of it, as that which composes things). From that standpoint, according to how you seem to be thinking of existence, modern science would not consider anything as having any existence, at least according to this paradigm. What that means is that particle physics is merely a term of convenience to help assist in explaining what goes on. Electrons, photons, bosons, and the like, which are deemed to be particles, are instead inventions that assist in explaining what is observed. In its place, relativity theory suggests that existence can best be understood as events.

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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 2:45 pm 

Fuqin and everyone,

Again, if you do a google search on e=mc2 might be wrong, the first link in the thread will specifically discuss;

"Physicists working at CERN, believe they may have discovered Neutrinos traveling faster than the speed of light"; If the discovery is validated, it would mean Albert Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity marked as e=mc2 would be incorrect"

Hopefully, Al's "time dilation" nonsense, may also be headed for the same garbage can that e=mc2 might be headed to in the near future. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby Fuqin on December 22nd, 2011, 2:57 pm 

Thanks for that roj interesting, although all I can find are news articles , and you have to be careful about what journo’s make of what science is doing, that said some are saying it will blow the theory out of the water ,I wouldn’t like to put money on that happening , it will change the paradigm but how much and in what way I’m not sure ,on that note, many more of them are saying that according to Emc2 this makes time travel possible again sensationalist me thinks ,this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6EuN1kI7Bc&feature=related
I think he is a Physicist and a science populariser at the end of his commentary he offers an interesting solution and that is extra dimensions which have been theorized about but not proven , basicly the nutrenos are taking a shortcut through another dimension a 4th one if you like, if this is so then Emc2 still holds true for the 3 dimentional current model with regard to the time travel possibility according to Emc2 the faster you go the slower time goes ,( another time dilation effect) which puts your theory of abstract time in a rather precarious position ,I’d say Lincoln would be in the thick of this and I’d be interested to see what he has to say about this eventually.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 3:12 pm 

Owleye,

Can you please be honest with me about something? Is your extremely rare response to one of my threads just an excuse to try to belittle me in some way, or criticise me in some other way? I could be wrong about this, but it definitely sounds like this at least from your initial tone in response to my posts in this thread.

I have a number of times offered to apologize to you if I have somehow offended you in any way in the past, and you never ever even gave me the courtesy of a response.

If that is your mission here, and you do not respond again to my request, then at least I will have saved myself the bother of wasteing my time in trying to respond to your objections or "questions" about this particular subject.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 3:27 pm 

Fuqin wrote:Thanks for that roj interesting, although all I can find are news articles , and you have to be careful about what journo’s make of what science is doing, that said some are saying it will blow the theory out of the water ,I wouldn’t like to put money on that happening , it will change the paradigm but how much and in what way I’m not sure ,on that note, many more of them are saying that according to Emc2 this makes time travel possible again sensationalist me thinks ,this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6EuN1kI7Bc&feature=related
I think he is a Physicist and a science populariser at the end of his commentary he offers an interesting solution and that is extra dimensions which have been theorized about but not proven , basicly the nutrenos are taking a shortcut through another dimension a 4th one if you like, if this is so then Emc2 still holds true for the 3 dimentional current model with regard to the time travel possibility according to Emc2 the faster you go the slower time goes ,( another time dilation effect) which puts your theory of abstract time in a rather precarious position ,I’d say Lincoln would be in the thick of this and I’d be interested to see what he has to say about this eventually.


Fuqin,

Still, it's really fascinating that possibly the biggest principle in all of modern physics might be complete bullsh#t! "Nevermind" I actually did mention this to Lincoln in a pm a short time ago, but he completely avoided discussing the exact same subject with me in any way in his return pm. He might still be in shock the poor fellow.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby mtbturtle on December 22nd, 2011, 3:37 pm 

Lincoln is working on this and you could ask him about it. There has been a thread or two on it in SCF already.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 3:52 pm 

mtbturtle wrote:Lincoln is working on this and you could ask him about it. There has been a thread or two on it in SCF already.


Thanks mtbturtle; But where specifically in SCF? I have been watching for something about this in SCF for weeks to no avail?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby owleye on December 22nd, 2011, 4:00 pm 

ronjanec wrote:Owleye,

Can you please be honest with me about something? Is your extremely rare response to one of my threads just an excuse to try to belittle me in some way, or criticise me in some other way? I could be wrong about this, but it definitely sounds like this at least from your initial tone in response to my posts in this thread.


In examining my motives, I don't see the belittling tone you claim exists, but apparently I've overstepped in some way. It's true that I'm sometimes provocative in my responses, and this is perhaps what you are noticing. The intent of any provocation is to provoke the interlocutor to re-examine what they've offered. By couching what someone says in a slightly different light, essentially drawing out its ramifications, I'm purposely going beyond a charitable reading, which is how I make my first cut at it. I'm suggesting that even if I've understood what is being offered I think it worthwhile to examine it in order that the offering could be clarified in such a way that it doesn't extend to this or that ramification (or it could mean that the interlocutor will double-down, so to speak, in which case, I will need to work on my own analysis). However, it's also possible I haven't really understood what's being said, and my wish is that I be corrected in something I've said.

ronjanec wrote:I have a number of times offered to apologize to you if I have somehow offended you in any way in the past, and you never ever even gave me the courtesy of a response.


I've never felt any need for you to apologize for what you've written, much less that you have somehow offended me, something which is far from my thoughts. The basis reason for apologies, at least when I make them, is when I misconstrue what someone has been saying, which occurs quite often. There are many who are better readers than I am and it takes me awhile to figure out what someone is actually saying. To get at it, I often have to pursue paths that are distasteful to that person because they, themselves, don't quite realize the implications of their position. As you have indicated of yourself, I, too, can be wrong, and often am. It is through such errors that I hope to learn something. It's possible that the tactic that I use doesn't work all that well, but I do in fact need to do it to get at the heart of the problem that is being dealt with. Philosophy is, in my view, extremely difficult. When I find broad-brush statements of the kind you've been making about reality, finding them inadequate to the difficulty of the task at hand, I try to seek out just what it is that can be the right discussion to have. I can do this, however, only if the person is willing to examine what they've been saying in the statements they've used to express it.

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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby CanadysPeak on December 22nd, 2011, 4:02 pm 

ronjanec wrote:Hi Fuqin, how are things "down under"?

I believe you were actually right in your initial thoughts on the subject of time, or it is not a physical substance of any kind. I believe "time dilation" was always a big mistake, and may soon go the way of the possible illusion of e=mc2.

While I am on the same subject, why am I the only one on this science forum who seems to actually be aware of the very recent huge controversy regarding e=mc2?(duh?)


What controversy? I missed this one while I was busy worrying about Sid Crosby's concussion. Do you have a source?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 4:12 pm 

mtbturtle,

I just checked the "physics" forum, and the "anything science" forum, and I could not find anything on the very recent e=mc2 controversy? One would think that possibly the biggest story in physics in the last 100 years would have appeared somewhere in SCF with a related title? I would have personally started a thread about this myself a month or so ago in SCF but I am persona non grata in SCF.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 4:19 pm 

ronjanec wrote:Fuqin and everyone,

Again, if you do a google search on e=mc2 might be wrong, the first link in the thread will specifically discuss;

"Physicists working at CERN, believe they may have discovered Neutrinos traveling faster than the speed of light"; If the discovery is validated, it would mean Albert Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity marked as e=mc2 would be incorrect"

Hopefully, Al's "time dilation" nonsense, may also be headed for the same garbage can that e=mc2 might be headed to in the near future. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.


Canady,

I do not know how to post sources on the forum(duh); Could you please google e=mc2 might be wrong and maybe post the same link?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 4:31 pm 

owleye wrote:
ronjanec wrote:Owleye,

Can you please be honest with me about something? Is your extremely rare response to one of my threads just an excuse to try to belittle me in some way, or criticise me in some other way? I could be wrong about this, but it definitely sounds like this at least from your initial tone in response to my posts in this thread.


In examining my motives, I don't see the belittling tone you claim exists, but apparently I've overstepped in some way. It's true that I'm sometimes provocative in my responses, and this is perhaps what you are noticing. The intent of any provocation is to provoke the interlocutor to re-examine what they've offered. By couching what someone says in a slightly different light, essentially drawing out its ramifications, I'm purposely going beyond a charitable reading, which is how I make my first cut at it. I'm suggesting that even if I've understood what is being offered I think it worthwhile to examine it in order that the offering could be clarified in such a way that it doesn't extend to this or that ramification (or it could mean that the interlocutor will double-down, so to speak, in which case, I will need to work on my own analysis). However, it's also possible I haven't really understood what's being said, and my wish is that I be corrected in something I've said.

ronjanec wrote:I have a number of times offered to apologize to you if I have somehow offended you in any way in the past, and you never ever even gave me the courtesy of a response.


I've never felt any need for you to apologize for what you've written, much less that you have somehow offended me, something which is far from my thoughts. The basis reason for apologies, at least when I make them, is when I misconstrue what someone has been saying, which occurs quite often. There are many who are better readers than I am and it takes me awhile to figure out what someone is actually saying. To get at it, I often have to pursue paths that are distasteful to that person because they, themselves, don't quite realize the implications of their position. As you have indicated of yourself, I, too, can be wrong, and often am. It is through such errors that I hope to learn something. It's possible that the tactic that I use doesn't work all that well, but I do in fact need to do it to get at the heart of the problem that is being dealt with. Philosophy is, in my view, extremely difficult. When I find broad-brush statements of the kind you've been making about reality, finding them inadequate to the difficulty of the task at hand, I try to seek out just what it is that can be the right discussion to have. I can do this, however, only if the person is willing to examine what they've been saying in the statements they've used to express it.

James


Owleye,

Well, that's great to hear James, and I want to apologize to you for having the wrong idea about you then.

I have gotten very involved in this e=mc2 discussion for now, can I get back to you as soon as I can on your recent spacetime and time comments here in this same thread?
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 5:28 pm 

Owleye,

Your posts are always well thought out and are not easy to respond to so I am going to try to respond to your post hopefully a step at a time.

I am not saying that spacetime is an illusion in most ways. This would be like my saying arithmetic is an illusion. The system works in many cases. Space does exist everywhere in the universe, but since man actually invented time it cannot exist where man himself does not exit or anywhere else in the universe.

My real point here again is yes physical space exists, but the time existing in any particular space(called spacetime by some) is only an extension and projection here of our minds.

I am only questioning spacetime from an ontological viewpoint, not a "does it work" viewpoint.Does spacetime have actual existing being? No. Only space has actually existing being somewhere

More on the rest of your post later.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 5:50 pm 

Owleye,

I could write in book here in responding to some of the questions in your post(why doesn't time exist everywhere in the universe?)

Could you please keep your posts here very short with maybe one very difficult question at a time?

You do understand that I am not saying that spacetime is completely an illusion, and that I am only questioning this from of an ontological perspective right?

I am going out to dinner with friends and I will be back later this evening.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby moranity on December 22nd, 2011, 7:17 pm 

ronjanec wrote:
Moranity,

What do you think spacetime is made of?


i do not believe an "object" that has the properties that define the "thought object" "spacetime" actually exists in reality, its a tool (like addition, which allows us to predict what happens when numbers of objects are added) that allows us to predict the path of change.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby Positor on December 22nd, 2011, 8:37 pm 

ronjanec wrote:You do understand that I am not saying that spacetime is completely an illusion, and that I am only questioning this from of an ontological perspective right?

I would like to offer a reason for believing that time is real (though not a physical substance), rather than a mere human construction.

We can say that:

1. There is an event E that occurs midway between objects A and B at time T1 (in some reference frame).
2. There is no event E that occurs midway between A and B at time T2 (in the same reference frame).

The above two statements refer to physical facts. Therefore, if time has no ontological reality, the interval between T1 and T2 likewise has no reality (outside of human thought), so T1 and T2 cannot legitimately feature in statements of fact, i.e. statements about non-human-dependent reality. We are therefore left with:

1. There is an event E that occurs midway between objects A and B (in some reference frame).
2. There is no event E that occurs midway between A and B (in the same reference frame).

But that is a straightforward contradiction. To avoid this, we must retain the references to T1 and T2 in these statements of fact. Hence the interval between T1 and T2 must be factual (real), and consequently time (and spacetime) must also be real.
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Re: What is spacetime made of?

Postby ronjanec on December 22nd, 2011, 10:39 pm 

mtbturtle wrote:Lincoln is working on this and you could ask him about it. There has been a thread or two on it in SCF already.


mtbturtle,

I do remember talking about this myself a few times recently in a couple of unrelated threads in SCF; That could be what you are talking about here mtbturtle. Until proven otherwise, I still claim first dibbs on breaking this incredible story here.
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