DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowboat

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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 24th, 2016, 6:16 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

Inchworm wrote:If we apply this to the light clock, there is no difference between the zigzag imagined by the observer and what is happening to his own light clock, so there is no time difference either between clocks moving at different speeds.

Don't confuse aberration of light and its funny angles with Clock Dilation. Movement through Space-Time slows clocks and the faster the motion the slower the clocks run. And of course we also have the time delay built into long distance communications due to the fact that light has a speed limit.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 24th, 2016, 6:52 pm 

I think I'm not confusing! I'm just showing how aberration would straighten the light clock beam if it was really traveling this way. Do you think that aberration would not occur, or do you think that the beam would not travel this way?
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 7th, 2017, 8:56 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

I am sorry I lost track of this thread during high pressure from my Job to meet deadlines.

All this stuff about aberration of light is the effect of mover and observers as they travel through a radial field(s) of light at various angles. If (A) was heading away or towards (B) then figure 1 applies with Doppler shifts of course, as far as I can tell.. a Frame doesn't include light aberrations. I think a Frame only concerns itself with their Clocks and their Velocities. In such a case, direction is ignored and two travelers are in the same Frame if they have equal velocities relative to Light Speed. Ie: If both (A) and (B) are moving at 0.5c then their clocks will be ticking at the exact same slower rate, regardless of their individual trajectories.

Figure 3 shows this as both a frame and aberration combined. But if (A) and (B) where heading in opposite directions at the same speed, they would still share the same Frame but their apparent mutually observed positions would be wildly off due to Light Aberrations.

Form the Lorentz Equation, we see that Absolute Clock Rate is direct function of Absolute Velocity. Ignoring this simple fact is why I have a beef with Classical Relativists, who try to Gloss over this simple fact. They hate Absolutes. Like Men and Women.. you can't live with them and you can't live without them..lol.

If I haven't answered your question, could you be more specific?

Again, sorry for dropping the ball here.. I dropped the ball on many threads at that time. Massive overtime on the Job was the only way I could keep up with Job demands.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 9th, 2017, 1:59 pm 

Dave wrote:If (A) was heading away or towards (B) then figure 1 applies with Doppler shifts of course, as far as I can tell.. a Frame doesn't include light aberrations. I think a Frame only concerns itself with their Clocks and their Velocities.
Aberration of light is also considered as a relativistic phenomenon, and that's what the following animation is about: it gives the same result wether it is the source or the observer that is considered at rest.
Image
Unfortunately though, it doesn't give the same result if we use sound instead of light, and sound is also independent from the motion of bodies. If the observer is moving with regard to air, sound will travel as in the left animation, but if it is the source that is traveling with regard to air, then sound will travel as in the right animation. With air, we cannot exchange viewpoints as we could for light, because we know which one is moving.

How can you admit time dilation while still believing in an absolute medium? Add a medium for light to the light clock mind experiment, and tell me which direction light should take to hit the mirrors.
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 9th, 2017, 3:19 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

Inchworm wrote:Unfortunately though, it doesn't give the same result if we use sound instead of light, and sound is also independent from the motion of bodies.

I disagree with this. Sound and light have very similar characteristics. We can hear in stereo, and thus have a sense of direction of the source of the sound location. The graph you provided shows the same effect for sound as for light.

I believe the reason for clocks slowing down for Gravity is the exact same reason as Velocity.

Gravity causes Mass to assume the Geometry of Acceleration or that it has a Non-Zero Velocity. It's a constant because the Matter isn't really accelerating so the deformation in the Geometry is a constant. Velocity also alters the Geometry of matter, either because it is Moving as in inertial.. thus the Geometry deformation is a constant, or it is really accelerating and the Geometry deformation is evolving.

It takes time for Matter to evolve/deform to changing velocity states. This is Momentum or resistance to change. If one forces the Geometry to change faster than it can, it will be destroyed.

I would even go so far as to predict that if we could teleport Matter from deep space to near a Black Hole, it would instantly destruct on arrival. The sudden change in local space-time Geometry would be too fast for Matter to evolve. Same as instantly accelerating a stationary bowling ball to 0.5c.

I think your personal Small-Steps theory would predict this also.

Since the speed of light is a constant, then Matter has issues maintaining its Geometry. It must do so by inserting small alterations in its cyclic Geometry. Ie: Watch the feet of Square dancers on a flat floor. Now watch what happens if the floor gets tilted (Gravity Acceleration) or the floor is moved under their feet (them (group) being pushed at some accelerating velocity). The small steps can't change its size (speed of light limit) so they must change (step rate) in Geometry for the members going in opposite directions relative to the motion of the whole.

Count the number of total steps per time interval. You will see a greater step count when the group is in motion along a given group direction than if the Group is stationary. That's clock dilation. It takes longer for the whole group to form a complete rotation the faster the Group moves in a specific direction. Or all 4 pairs end up on the same side and kablooey.. no more balanced Geometry for the Group.

Speed limits (constant step lengths) are a bitch..lol.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 9th, 2017, 4:18 pm 

Dave wrote:I disagree with this. Sound and light have very similar characteristics.
Yes they do, and I suggest that we should take for granted that light behaves like sound instead of the contrary. In the animation, aberration is relative, but not if we use sound waves instead of light waves. With sound, the wave "absolutely" has to be sent towards the future position of the mirrors in the light clock mind experiment.

Watch the feet of Square dancers on a flat floor. Now watch what happens if the floor gets tilted (Gravity Acceleration) or the floor is moved under their feet (them (group) being pushed at some accelerating velocity). The small steps can't change its size (speed of light limit) so they must change (step rate) in Geometry for the members going in opposite directions relative to the motion of the whole.
What the steps are resisting to change is their length and their direction, and they are doing so only at the moment they are being accelerated, otherwise they can nevertheless change them providing they have time. What they cannot change is their frequency. If you move the floor under dancers' steps, they cannot change their frequency either, otherwise they are going to step on their feet and probably fall down. They can anytime change the length and the direction of their steps though, and that's what they do when they change voluntarily their direction or their speed on the dancing floor.
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 9th, 2017, 11:05 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

Inchworm wrote:They can anytime change the length and the direction of their steps though, and that's what they do when they change voluntarily their direction or their speed on the dancing floor.

Yes, but if their feet are tied such they can only make steps of a certain size (Planck Lengths) then they must make faster steps. If they can't make faster steps (speed of light limit) then someone(s) needs to take fewer steps, because fewer steps is the only viable solution. Fewer step counts don't actually work, so instead they are marking time.. like marching in place. This maintains the Geometry at the expense of the wasted steps when marking (marching in place) time.

The faster it all goes, the greater number of wasted steps are required to maintain Geometry.

That's Clock Dilation.

Another better simple example:
Two twins link arms and run around each other. All's good. Now try to force the pair to make headway going North. At some point you will reach the max velocity that they can run. The one going North can't run any faster, so the one going south at any moment makes up the difference by going slower. If they are linked to take the same number of steps, then they must sacrifice spin counts because one (going south) is basically stomping in place a lot.

So based on counting steps, they must spin slower the faster they are forced to go North. Imagine yourself as one of the wins. When going North, you are running at max speed and when its your turn to go South, you basically stand still (or stomp in place) waiting for your counterpart to start heading (west) and you get to start heading opposite (east). Remember when you guys where holding one location, you could both run at max speed around each other.. arms linked.. high RPM (fastest clock).

So, both are always running as fast as possible, but one must slow down (stomp in place) as a direction of motion is forced on the pair. Thus Rpm must decrease because one is always wasting steps on their turn not to run at Max speed.

Fewer RPM = slower clock = Dilated clock.

I think this twin version analogy is easier to imagine than the square dancers..lol. It's actually something you can try at home (if you have a strong stomach..lol).

Do it and have a friend count RPM's.. both running at max speed.. arms linked.

Now do it again, but have them try to keep pace with a third runner going down the street fast. Count RPM's now. It will be lower.. I promise you.

That is the basic mechanics of Clock Dilation. RPM = time lapse.

Clocks run slower the faster they move. It has nothing to do with Time and everything to due with speed limits.

This affects all clocks, even biological ones. You will age slower the faster you move.

But it has nothing to do with Time.

If your small steps theory has any truth to it, you should see this same effect in it (or a reasonable facsimile).

Thus: Clocks don't really measure Time.. they measure the Evolution/Rate of cyclic Matter vs Speed. Sure, we design clocks to measure time, but they suck at it when moving real fast.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 10th, 2017, 10:52 am 

Dave wrote:If your small steps theory has any truth to it, you should see this same effect in it (or a reasonable facsimile).
I agree with you, but I didn't find that effect on them yet.

Yes, but if their feet are tied such they can only make steps of a certain size (Planck Lengths) then they must make faster steps.
The steps from smaller particles have to justify the steps from larger ones, so they have to be a lot more frequent because they are a lot shorter. If the steps exist at all, then it means that they appeared at the smaller scales and migrated to larger ones, so that the lengths that they can actually afford at larger scale still hold at smaller ones.

Two twins link arms and run around each other. All's good. Now try to force the pair to make headway going North. At some point you will reach the max velocity that they can run. The one going North can't run any faster, so the one going south at any moment makes up the difference by going slower. If they are linked to take the same number of steps, then they must sacrifice spin counts because one (going south) is basically stomping in place a lot.
I think that there is no need to add rotational motion to the steps to understand direct motion. If we increase the speed in one direction, we can only increase their length, so if the speed is getting close to the speed of light, light just won't be able to account for them anymore, and they should thus resist more to their acceleration in that direction, what we call mass increase. It's different than with relativity because there is a memory to account for the direction, a memory that is contained in the doppler effect that is situated between the particles, not in the particles themselves. By the way, if the steps had to increase their frequency to account for speed, that clock would be accelerating its pace instead of decelerating it.
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 10th, 2017, 5:10 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

Inchworm wrote:By the way, if the steps had to increase their frequency to account for speed, that clock would be accelerating its pace instead of decelerating it.

Exactly! And thus the inverse is true if they always travel at maximum speed.. the frequency must go down.

The best image I can produce to show this looks like this:

Cycle.jpg


There was a program on the Science Channel where they where interviewing Physicists regarding the effects on Matter that's in Motion. The red arrow is the direction of motion. Matter can never stop moving, so he showed the cycle of Matter as in this image. The side going slower, doesn't actually go slower, it adds an extra small loop. The faster the Matter, the more loops on one side. Anyway, that was his Theory and I wish I had paid closer attention to get his name. This was years ago, and at the time I didn't understand the significance of this idea.

Now I see he is was saying the side going in the direction of the arrow has a Max speed, thus the other side of the Cycle has an extra mini cycle in it to maintain Cyclic Geometry. I think the subject however was about Momentum. Matter resists acceleration but will give in by adding extra cycles (become more complex) When left Inertial, Matter holds this Cyclic Geometry. If one accelerates or decelerates Matter faster than it can change the number of extra cycles, that Matter will self destruct.

It's this increase in complexity that I see as Clock Dilation. Of course, this is just an Analogy and I had no idea what his Math meant, when they showed his Equations.

Sorry I can't do better than this.. I pretty much suck at Math..lol.

But this is a close approximation of an image he showed. Something about the growth/release of extra epicycles due to changes in Velocity to explain Momentum (I Think). But I read into it, that Momentum due to Velocity would Increase Matter complexity and reduce Total Frequency and thus Dilate Matter (clocks running slower). Stationary Matter is just a simple circle/cycle.

This makes sense to me, but I don't know if it helps your case.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 11th, 2017, 11:40 am 

Dave_Oblad » February 10th, 2017, 4:10 pm wrote:Hi Inchworm,

Inchworm wrote:By the way, if the steps had to increase their frequency to account for speed, that clock would be accelerating its pace instead of decelerating it.

Exactly! And thus the inverse is true if they always travel at maximum speed.. the frequency must go down.
If my kind of steps would already be going at maximum speed so that their length couldn't get longer, then they would have to increase their frequency, what would again accelerate their clock instead of decelerating it. What you describe looks like a tide effect, like the one the surface of the planets suffer while going too slow on the sun's side and too fast on its far side, because of their rotational speed interfering with their orbital one. But as my small steps show, it might not be necessary to account for rotational effects to study direct motion.
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 11th, 2017, 6:21 pm 

Hi Inchworm,

I probably should have put some points on the Graph to be more clear.

The circle represents an orbital path for Particles/Runners. They are running counter clockwise around the circle. These runners have a constant frequency in steps taken and length of steps. To make the point more obvious, I will put two twins running the circle/track and ask they remain on opposite sides of the circle at all times.

This is easy if the track (circle) is stationary. But.. put the track in motion, in the direction of the arrow at some speed, what happens?

Imagine the track (circle) is being projected on the ground (flat, no obstacles) from a stationary helicopter. Our twins have no problem staying on opposite sides. But as the helicopter starts going North at some speed, can the twins remain on opposite sides?

Suppose the Helicopter was going north at 10 Mph and the absolute speed a twin always runs is 20Mph.

Then if a twin(A) is on the side of the track nearest the arrow, that twin can only make headway at 10Mph (20-10). The twin(B) could make headway at 30Mph on the opposite side of the track (20+10). But to remain on opposite sides of the track.. the twin(B) must slow down (not allowed) or run in place (not allowed) or increase the distance ran by running/adding a small circle on the side opposite the arrow (the little loop).

Thus, when the circle was stationary, the twins could do (say) 1 lap per minute. But if the projected circle was going the direction of the line at 10Mph.. can they still do 1 lap per minute? No they can't. The total distance around the track, as measured by the number of steps each twin has to take/run has doubled (more or less).

The twin nearest the direction line (going in the same direction as the arrow) has to cover far more ground and the twin running opposite the direction of the arrow has to add extra length by running extra small loops, to remain on opposite sides of the other twin. Therefore, the total laps per hour must decrease if the track is moving in some direction.

Once this concept is understood, we can drop down to just one runner/particle and see the laps per hour still is reduced when the path is in motion. To get the big picture, we now add a whole bunch of separate circles, each with a single runner, trying to time their frequency (lap times) with the runners on the other circles in order to maintain some constant Geometry of the whole. Ok, a bit like multiple Gears in a clock, but each gear only has one tooth.. lol.

The group is Matter, and like a clock, the components must adjust their synchronization to hold a constant Geometry. The faster the Group travels as a pack, the slower the gears must turn.

That's clock Dilation of Matter due to Velocity of the clock. The Physical track is the Fabric of Space-Time. The synchronization could be seen as an exchange of information between runners on their tracks at regular intervals as each runner passes the runner on another track.

If that information exchange is due to Doppler shift effects, then we are back on ground with your personal view (I think).

I'm just trying to make a point that the gear-works (complexity) in Matter-Clocks has nothing to do with Real Time and everything to do with the Velocity of the Whole ensemble. Thus I've said many times: Clocks don't measure Time, they measure Velocity. IMHO.. lol.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby BurtJordaan on February 12th, 2017, 1:27 am 

Dave_Oblad » 12 Feb 2017, 00:21 wrote:Thus I've said many times: Clocks don't measure Time, they measure Velocity. IMHO.. lol.

Dave, I find it hard to believe that you still doggedly cling to this faulty conclusion. Einstein's logic and numerous experiments abolished the "real time", or "absolute time" that you apparently strive for.

The rest of the world has moved on in time - its not good getting stuck in the science of two centuries ago...
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Inchworm on February 12th, 2017, 2:06 pm 

Dave wrote:I'm just trying to make a point that the gear-works (complexity) in Matter-Clocks has nothing to do with Real Time and everything to do with the Velocity of the Whole ensemble.
Yes, I noticed. :0)

But your example is still interesting to me, because it helps me to better understand the way the steps would execute rotational motions. Your two walkers execute their steps with regard to themselves though, whereas mine are executing them with regard to one another, using the doppler effect from the other walker to stay synchronized. To make rotations and still stay synchronized, they would have to add aberration to their equation. Nevertheless, they could not walk faster than the speed at which the information from the other walker would travel, so your idea that they could if time was slowed down doesn't work in my case, because it is not a possibility since the only way for them to progress at all is to stay synchronized.

That's precisely the reason why they develop what we call their mass, which happens only when something gets in their way, because then, they have to change their speed or their direction, and it takes more time than usual, which translates into resistance to make those changes. With that kind of mechanism for mass, your walkers would simply increase their resistance to acceleration, thus their mass, instead of changing their timing.

We're still playing with light though, and it may produce effects that we're not yet aware of. I even think that one of those effects is gravitation, which could be due to the steps from smaller scale particles having to stay synchronized with the steps from the larger particles they are part of, because then, the smaller steps would have to offer resistance to their change in length, which would necessarily happen since that length would have to constantly increase and decrease to follow the sinusoidal form of the longer step the smaller ones are part of.

Another kind of effect would be due to the rotational motion. I compare that one to the loss of rotational period of the earth while it makes a complete orbital cycle around the sun. In one year, it looses one day, and the steps from the earth's atoms would have to account for that effect to stay synchronized with those from the sun's atoms. By the way, the orbital speed of the moon around the earth has to cope with the orbital speed of the earth/moon system around the sun, and this phenomenon produces a tide effect instead of changing the synchronism between both cycles.
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby Dave_Oblad on February 12th, 2017, 6:42 pm 

Hi Jorrie,

Actually, I abolished "Time" in my Theory. There is no such thing as "Time". There is only Distance and Growth of that Distance by the addition of new surface Planck Lengths we call Planck Intervals. In other words, Space-Time is really just Space in 4D. And we exist and propagate to the next New added Blank Layer. In this fashion we don't interfere with our previous Geometry. That said Geometry extends over many Planck Lengths (intervals) per complete cycle of Matter. As such Matter is put into Motion, such Matter must increase its Cyclic Length in the 4Th Dimension. This increase in 4D Wavelength is Clock Dilation.

Further, the Geometry in 4D must be different for the Leading Edge as opposed to the Trailing Edge in a Construct composite during Acceleration (or Deceleration). This deformation is applied to the 3D aspect of Matter since it is impossible to Accelerate or Decelerate said Matter on the 4D axis of the New Surface Growth of Blank Space Cells.

Gravity is a Deformation of 3D Space Cells.. a non-linear Deformation of the 3D Space Metric. To Exist with this Deformation, Matter must adopt a Geometry consistent with Non-Linear Deformation (you call it Curvature) of the Space Metric. This Non-Linear adaptation is Identical to Matter under Acceleration. Thus Matter tries to Accelerate towards the Higher Density of said Metric. This adaptation to a metric differential also increases the complexity of the cyclic Nature of Matter. Thus Matter exposed to a Gravity Field, having an increased Complexity, must age slower.. just like it would if under Real Acceleration. If left unchecked by the intervention of other Matter, said deformed Matter really will Accelerate.. or what we call.. Falling.

Anyway, I've thrown what we call "Time" out the back door and replaced it with just Lengths or Distance in 3D and 4D. Just variable Wave (cyclic) Lengths truly Exist in our Reality. "Time" is an Illusion as we define Time.

Duration only Exists as a function of new Growth of Surface Space. This New Growth (the Expansion of the Universe) sets the Speed of Light Limitation. The expansion on the 4th Axis is a Constant and the expansion of the other Three is limited by the previous Metric size or foundation being Grown upon. The presence of Matter tends to bind the expansion size of that 3D Metric. Thus Space Expands faster in deep Voids than near Galaxies, that are maintaining a local suppression of the 3D Metric aspect.

The 4D growth of the Universe is where I get Real Time but is actually Real Distance and it's a Constant everywhere. No one can move into the Future any Faster or Slower than anyone else. Proper Time is a Misnomer and is actually Proper Distance relative to the Cyclic Wavelengths for Matter of Dilated Clocks.

Thus Clocks don't really measure "Time" but rather Proper Wavelengths against the background of 4D Growth, all of which is purely Distance.. any way we slice it.

This point of view excludes the Existence of an Event Horizon near a Black Hole. The dilated matter inside a Black Hole is radiating energy at sonic wavelengths and thus appears Black. It also says that the Physics inside a Black Hole are Normal Physics and the Metric Scale in or around a Black Hole is extremely reduced in Scale relative to what we would find in Deep Space. Atoms aren't crushed together, but are actually smaller as the Foundation is actually Smaller (than found in deep space). This says that the Planck Length (Interval) is a constant, even inside a Black Hole, but the 3D Planck Length is a Variable Metric.

I still wouldn't want to get too close to a Black Hole, as the Gravitational Differential may exceed the ability of Matter to stay bonded/intact. I might get stretched apart. Gravity is an Acceleration Geometry and there are limits to how much deformation Large Scale Mass can handle (molecules). Such a Deformation of the Space Metric would be like getting shot out of a Cannon at relativistic speeds. Not very pleasant I should think.

This would define a Horizon of sorts, as the threshold where Molecules are reduced to Atoms or later.. when Atoms are reduced to Particles. But it's not the same thing as the Current View of an Event Horizon where light is Trapped from escape. I suspect light escapes just fine.. but at very very low Wavelengths very slowly. This view predicts Black Holes will eventually lose enough Mass, due to radiated energy, to grow into a fairly normal Star (way in the future) as long as it's not being fed new Matter.. falling into it.

To get new Stars from Black Holes, we may have to post signs around it requesting: "Please.. do not feed the Black Hole".. lol.

Anyway, I'm not pushing Yesterday's Theory or Today's Theory.. I'm pushing Tomorrow's Theory.. IMHO.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: DaveO's laser ship, a SR chat split from Galileo's rowbo

Postby BurtJordaan on February 13th, 2017, 12:41 am 

Well Dave, good luck.

It will be a long time before you will be able to demonstrate that your "tomorrow's theory" is compatible with all the thousand of observations that have been done. When you achieve that, please give me a heads-up. Until then, enjoy the ride. ;)
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