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Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 30th, 2018, 3:43 pm
by TheVat
It is if he had it printed on parchment. I will look for it. Congrats to you, Doug!

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 30th, 2018, 6:24 pm
by doogles
Thank you Sciameriken for letting me know about that. Apparently I misinterpreted one questionnaire in which I clicked off a number of options for presentation of the book, thinking that it was asking about the format I presented it in.

The publication has been a disaster because the graphics have not printed out at all, and yet they represent the main evidence.


I'll have to try to sort it out.


Apologies for any inconvenience

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 30th, 2018, 10:06 pm
by SciameriKen
Keep me posted Doogles - I was surprised not to see a standard PDF -- Looking forward to reading it soon!

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 30th, 2018, 10:49 pm
by wolfhnd

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 31st, 2018, 4:52 am
by doogles
I don't know what's going on with my book. It seemed to load okay initially and appeared to be ready for sale. The rare file presentation of .pdb was apparently my fault. I misinterpreted one of the questions when I was uploading it and ticked an incorrect box. But fixing that error not only failed to solve the problem, but somehow resulted in there being a flaw of some kind in my MS. It's strange because the converter in my Word software turns it into an ePUB and a Mobi file without any problems and it passed a validation test on a website recommended by Smashwords.

The sample you uploaded looked okay Wolfhnd. The graphics came through all right.

SciameriKen, my apologies. I suspect that their conversion problems have something to do with the number of hyperlinks I have in the document. It looks as if it may take a while to locate the problem. Can I email you a copy of the original manuscript? I'm not sure how to go about that, but I'll look at the instructions in the forum here.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: July 31st, 2018, 3:10 pm
by Event Horizon
I think vitamin K is one of the few nature-identical or naturally derived supplemets. I commonly take multi vitamins and minerals on top of a fairly healthy diet and have experienced no detrimental effects. Just remember too much Beta carotene can turn your skin orange!

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: August 27th, 2018, 4:11 am
by doogles
Finally, my eBook forms of of VITAMIN K OR A WHEELCHAIR are available on Smashwords (https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/884120) and on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K-Wheelc ... dpSrc=srch).

Don't download the 'Original Version' on Smashwords. Is not up to standard. It was a good-intentioned attempt by one of their staff to produce a Word version that would pass their 'conversion to eBook". It achieved this end by omitting all internal and eternal links -- and apparently they are unable to replace it with a better version.

Apropos of this thread, I have a short chapter on the interraction of Vitamin D and Vitamin K. Some queries were raised about this earlier in the thread. It was the first time I'd looked at any vitamin D research.

My take briefly, in this book, is that vitamin D (directly or indirectly by mobilizing calcium ions) is essential for the gene expression of proteins within cells. (see https://vitamindwiki.com/291+genes+improved+expression+by+2000+IU+of+vitamin+D+%E2%80%93+RCT+March+2013). This includes those proteins that vitamin K has to carboxylate before they become active.

So, if we have a low vitamin D status, we could show all the effects of vitamin K deficiency (as well as myriads of other conditions). And one medical theorist expresses the opinion that if we have an excess of vitamin D, it could result in an overload of vitamin K-dependent proteins needing activation, thus depleting vitamin K reserves and causing symptoms of vitamin K deficiency (essentially atherosclerosis and its sequelae; see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987706007171).

My net conclusion relating to the two vitamins is that vitamin K can be present in excessive quantities, but that vitamin D needs to be available within safe limits.

To my mind, vitamin D is still mainly a transporter of calcium throughout the body, but that vitamin K is essential for the activation of the proteins that regulate the deposition of calcium in bones rather than soft tissues.

It is explained at more length in the book.

If time supports the evidence in this book, it may result in an entirely revolutionary attitude towards geriatric medicine at least. Up till now (4 years) it works for me.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: September 24th, 2018, 6:17 am
by doogles
I broadened my research base last week by looking for literature on atherosclerosis in dogs. Our older pets show virtually all of the same geriatric conditions that affect human beings.

If you looked at my recent ebook on 'Vitamin K or a Wheelchair' (which essentially describes my own case history of reversal of atherosclerosis, osteoarthritis, coronary artery disease and chronic kidney disease and became a dissertation on the role of vitamin K deficiency in degenerative diseases), you'll realise that I concluded that atherosclerosis itself could be postulated as the main common factor and precursor to tissue and organ degenerative conditions.

So I found these few articles quite interesting -- Liu et al (1986; https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3744984) diagnosed atherosclerosis at necropsy in 21 dogs over a 14 years period. Nine of the dogs died and 12 were euthanised because of disease complications. The disease was extensive in affected animals and identified in "coronary, renal, carotid, thyroidal, intestinal, pancreatic, splenic, gastric, prostatic, cerebral, and mesenteric arteries. Macroscopically, the arteries were yellow-white, thick and nodular, and had narrow lumens. Myocardial fibrosis and infarction also were observed in the myocardium. Histologically, affected arterial walls contained foamy cells or vacuoles, cystic spaces, mineralized material, debris with or without eroded intima, and degenerated muscle cells."

Kagawa et al (1998; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7505801264) recorded their findings on five cases of systemic atherosclerosis in dogs. Lesions were found in the aorta and muscular arteries in many organs, including the heart, spleen, kidneys, lungs, pancreas, alimentary tract, urogenital organs, eyes, prostate and urinary bladder. The authors regarded the lesions as being similar to those found in human beings.

Obviously, because this is a new field of investigation, there are no records associating the atherosclerotic lesions with developing osteoarthritis, chronic kidney disease, coronary artery disease etc. in domestic animals.(There was one article that showed a very significant association between atherosclerosis in dogs and diabetes mellitus as well as hypothryoidism, but it was aimed only at endocrinological conditions -- Hess et al, 2008; https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... .tb02469.x).

Mele (2003; http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf) claimed that osteoarthritis is very common in dogs. I can verify that it was very common when I was in practice. Now I wonder whether atherosclerosis is more common that we realise in dogs; as I said, we do not appear to have a test we can use clinically in the species. Currently, I have lost contact with veterinary practice, but I do know now that I would be trying a course of the two vitamins K if I were in practice currently.

So, if your aging pet is showing early signs of any of the above conditions, why not try a pro-rata dose of vitamins K1 and K2, the equivalent of 500 micrograms of each for an 80 kg animal. There do not appear to be any records of toxicity of vitamin K.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 16th, 2020, 3:22 am
by doogles
I began this thread with the personal hypothesis on the need for humans at least to take supplements daily of about 500 micrograms each of vitamins K1 and K2 which is about 10 times the recommended daily allowance. I mentioned my dissertation called "Vitamin K or a Wheelchair", which is currently available free on Smashwords that describes my own history of medical decline until I began taking the supplements.

As an update after 5.5 years of supplementation, I can report that now at aged 88, I have no anginas, no active osteoarthritis, no lower back pain, no strokes, no signs of impaired cognition. In order to keep a balanced perspective, I need to point out that these are all 'end-organ' degenerative conditions.

I also need to report that my immunity to infections has not benefitted, nor has my chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. There is no evidence in the literature associating them with vitamin K. Firstly I developed a urinary tract infection 18 months ago that took 8 weeks to clean up after an abscessed prostate was removed, and secondly I'm currently in the last days (or weeks) of recovery from a bout of shingles.

So you can cross immunity off the list of vitamin K functions.

I believe that there has been no improvement in my chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. I run out of 'puff' walking up hills or undertaking vigorous rowing or exercise-bikeriding. I stay within my comfort zone.

I've researched much 2019 literature on the subject and found absolutely nothing but evidence confirming my hypothesis so far. If there is any interest, I will post some of the latest information.

Another point I've realised about vitamin K supplementation, based on my own subjective observation and those of close family members using it, is that it does not act as a stimulant of any kind. You do not feel more lively or activated or motivated to do more. You just feel 'normal'. You just realise that if you have chronic end-organ degenerative conditions that they improve to the extent where permanent structural damage has irreversibly occurred as in the case of my feet and ankles. If you are my age, you notice that your contemporaries are all becoming sedentary, developing dementia and going into palliative care. Last year saw the passing of at least 5 of my contemporaries from such conditions.

I have declined to suggest the use of vitamin Ks to several of my contemporaries who have reached the stage of needing assistance to travel, even with 'walkers', or who have reached stages of end-organ damage eg complete hemiplegia after stroke. I fear that even if vitamin K halts the progress of the condition that it may have the effect of prolonging their lives in an incapacitated condition.

Its ideal role in my opinion, is as a preventative, or as a therapeutic in the early detection stages of end-organ degenerative conditions. It sounds silly and a bit like a 'con' to say that it's best to take the supplement before you need it. But if you have something like chronic back pain, angina pectoris, early detected chronic kidney disease, mild cognitive defects, mild strokes, osteoarthritis of any kind, my money is on taking 10 times the recommended daily allowance of both vitamin K1 and K2.

My hypothesis now is that vitamin K is one of our most important vitamins and that atherosclerosis can be regarded as a clinical sign of its deficiency and that a number of age-related end-organ diseases can be regarded as secondary effects of the deficient circulation from that atherosclerosis.

There is still an erroneous belief among medical professionals here in Australia that vitamin K causes intravenous blood clots or emboli. My 91-year-old sister who lives 2000 km away, had a mild stroke about 15 months ago. I organised for some vitamin K1 and K2 to be delivered to her. After 3 months I phoned her to see if she was running short of them and as a result, sent her another 12 months supply. About 2 months ago I phoned her again only to be told that she had had a more severe stroke that affected one side and that she had to get around with a walking stick. When I asked her if she had been taking the vitamin Ks she said that she did not know. She said that her daughter and grandson looked after her tablets. Finally I caught up with my great nephew who said that they had not given her the vitamin Ks on the advice of her GP and pharmacist, both of whom claimed that it would cause more dementia and strokes. I find such incidents very frustrating. As I said, my hypothesis now, after reviewing masses of literature, is that some forms at least of both strokes and dementia can be due to diminished blood supply caused by atherosclerosis which, in turn (based on response to treatment) appears to be caused by vitamin K deficiency. I can only hope that my grandnephew ignores the medical advice, which is based on poor theory.

Vitamin K should be regarded in my opinion as a highly effective blood clotting regulator; it activates clotting proteins as well as several powerful anticoagulant proteins.

There is no experimental evidence that vitamin K can exacerbate blood clotting or vascular emboli. On the contrary, I recently came across a relevant article that was over 20 years old and which produced evidence of the exact opposite. Rondell et al (1997; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5097000877) in a paper titled Modulation of arterial thrombosis tendency in rats by vitamin K and its side chains, used a rat aortic loop model to observe the coagulation rate of blood. They reported that in rats, very high doses of vitamin K (250,000 micrograms per kg body weight per day of either phylloquinone or menaquinone-MK4) affected neither the blood coagulation characteristics nor the blood platelet aggregation rate.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 16th, 2020, 2:22 pm
by TheVat
Here's a summary from the Linus Pauling Institute on Micronutrients on K....

https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-K

Like Doogles, I think a key aspect of vitamin K is in preventing vessel mineralization, and the resulting "Methuselah" role this can play during the aging process.

It is good to be wary of anecdote, however. Other Methuselah factors are genes (do you have many relatives who reach age 90 or more?), anti-inflammatory diets (e.g. Mediterranean diets), sugar consumption (sugar is strongly linked with accelerated aging in many tissues) and daily level of physical activity especially that which provides overall body workouts and good CV exercise. And, last but not least, the level of PM 2.5 in your general area.

Some of the above are harder to control than others (such as air particulates if you have to be outdoors a lot, or obviously, genes), so it's really good to look at factors like K, where one can take control. I would hypothesize that increased K consumption would be very helpful for persons living in areas of high PM 2.5, helping to reduce incidence of DVT (deep-vein thrombosis), stroke, and other health effects of fine particulate matter.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 17th, 2020, 6:12 am
by doogles
Yes, TheVat, I did mention that Linus Pauling summary as well as the one by the Weston Price Foundation as two sources of preliminary reading in my dissertation titled Vitamin K or a Wheelchair. My current Post would assume that the reader had looked at that dissertation before reading this post. I can now see that taken in isolation, my latest Post seems meaningless. Obviously I can't reproduce that dissertation in a Post because of its length. That dissertation is available free from Smashwords at the moment so anybody with a computer can access it and read it. It is far more comprehensive than the above-mentioned two ongoing summaries. There are hyperlinks to hundreds of original research papers. It is all evidence-based.

I was going to present some updates of the 2019 literature, but maybe its best to comment on the Linus Pauling dissertation first. Everything stated in there appears to be accurate enough, but it lacks certain aspects of action of vitamin Ks.

The main two points on which it differs from my hypothesis is that it does not mention activated Protein C and its role in atherosclerosis, and it shows the old recommended daily allowances that are far too low. I'll reproduce a couple of papers here from Vitamin K or a Wheelchair -- "By 2012, Theuwissen et al (http://advances.nutrition.org/content/3/2/166.full) claimed, in the introduction to a paper, that seventeen vitamin K–dependent proteins had been identified and that several were involved in regulating soft-tissue calcification. In the same paper, they concluded that there was no such thing as healthy human subjects with fully carboxylated-glutamic acid-proteins outside of the liver and that western diets contained insufficient vitamin K to meet the requirements of healthy bone and vascular wall. There are some further extracts explaining much about the calcification of soft tissues and the role of vitamin K-dependent proteins in preventing this calcification.
This was a reinforcement to some extent of the opinion of Shearer & Newman (2008; https://www.thieme-connect.com/products ... 08-03-0147) who stated that data on the bioavailability of the various forms of vitamin K is limited, and that although the absorption of pure vitamin K1 is 80%, the absorption from foods such as spinach is only 4-17% of that absorbed from tablets because of its tight binding to chloroplasts.
Vermeer (2012; https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... v56i0.5329) gave an overview of the vitamin Ks and concluded that the dietary vitamin K requirement for the synthesis of the coagulation factors is much lower than for that of the extra-hepatic glutamic acid-proteins. This forms the basis of the triage theory stating that during poor dietary supply, vitamins are preferentially utilized for functions that are important for immediate survival. If this is so, then spontaneous bleeding is an indicator of a severe acute deficiency and that atherosclerosis and it's sequelae are signs of long-term chronic deficiencies.
In fact Shearer et al (2012; https://academic.oup.com/advances/artic ... 82/4557941) pointed out that the Required Daily Allowance of vitamin K was established on the basis of the minimum amount needed to reduce bleeding in elderly men, that the recommended daily doses varied between authoritative sources, and that all recommendations may actually be far too low."


The above few studies are very important to my mind. They strongly suggest that vitamin K deficiencies are widespread and that if we do not take supplementary doses, that are available without prescription, cheap, and as safe to take as any substance on the market, we are going to be prone to bone pathologies as well as all of the degenerative diseases mentioned throughout this book.

I believe that activated Protein C will become a household term in a decade or so. It has a role in preventing every stage of the process of development of atherosclerosis and in angiogenesis(and atherosclerosis is a 'process' and not just an accumulation of cholesterol). There are guestimates of the length of the blood vascular system of humans as being in the order of thousands of kilometres. So, in order to maintain healthy arteries, we are going to need plenty of Protein C and plenty of vitamin K to carboxylate it. There is a dissertation on Protein C in the eBook.

Hence my hypothesis that we need about 10 times the officially-recommended daily allowances.

Using that regime, I have been able to show the only existing tracings in the world, as far as I know, of a reversal of 50 to 70% atherosclerotic stenosis of arteries after 14 months of 500 micrograms each of vitamin K1 and K2. Some of these are shown in the OP of this thread (see viewtopic.php?f=39&t=32238)/

My hope before I commenced supplementation was that the calcification would be reduced and that my arteries would be 'softer', allowing a freer flow of blood, but in fact, the entire stenosis appears to have reversed to the extent described in that OP (Occluded arteries have remained occluded, but I must have developed a good collateral circulation where required).

I appreciate the limitations of a single case history and the points you make about genes, anti-inflammatory diets, sugar diets and daily physical exercise, but I can safely say that in my case, in spite of having all of these factors in my favour, my leg arteries were progressively clogging, my kidney glomerular filtration rate was deteriorating with each annual test and I was getting more frequent bouts of angina on exertion up until I began taking 10 times the recommended daily doses of vitamin K.

But I am very interested, TheVat, by your mention of 2.5 micron particulate matter. When you said "I would hypothesize that increased K consumption would be very helpful for persons living in areas of high PM 2.5, helping to reduce incidence of DVT (deep-vein thrombosis), stroke, and other health effects of fine particulate matter", have you actually seen a reference to that? I'm interested because I'm looking for a reason why we have a tendency to get atherosclerosis from infancy and through our teens. There has to be a reason for monocytes to begin migrating through the arterial endothelia in the first stage of the process of atheroma formation. My gut guess is that fine particulate matter just may be the cause, being absorbed via the lungs and deposited in artery walls. But I have seen only one paper so far that suggests the possibility.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 17th, 2020, 11:13 am
by TheVat
No, it's something I've only recently looked at, PM 2.5 being a shorthand for particles below that size. AFAICT, it's the particles down around 30 nm and under that are most implicated, due to their ability at alveolar membrane migration. Tim Smedley's book, "Clearing the Air," has quite a bit on PM stuff and I will try to extract some of his citations. Both medical journals and environmental science journals have published papers on carbon nanoparticles, and there's been a fair amount of focus on badly afflicted cities like Delhi and Beijing, e. g.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 17th, 2020, 1:33 pm
by TheVat
Yes, TheVat, I did mention that Linus Pauling summary as well as the one by the Weston Price Foundation as two sources of preliminary reading in my dissertation titled Vitamin K or a Wheelchair. My current Post would assume that the reader had looked at that dissertation before reading this post....


Sorry for the redundancy. Like many with a "teetering pile" of reading, I am slow to get to longer book length or near book length work. I will have to join Smashwords to read VKoaW, is that correct? I should at least look through it and read the introductory material before posting further.

And, a bit offtopic, but I hope you and your loved ones are bearing up okay under the current assaults on atmospheric chemistry in your quadrant of the globe. It is very concerning for the general public health in Australia to have all this rapid release of PM 2.5 and carbon nanoparticles and various VOCs from such large scale burning of landscape. Especially in the areas prone to thermal inversions and such.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 17th, 2020, 4:57 pm
by doogles
You don't have to 'join' Smashwords to become a member or anything. They are simply an eBook retailer who claim to have over 500,000 titles.

If you bring up Google and type in SMASHWORDS, their site will come up. You type either the name of the book (VITAMIN K OR A WHEELCHAIR) or the author (DOUG FENWICK) into the 'search' box and the title site will show. It is free, so you can just download it to your computer.

The Table of Contents is hyperlinked to chapters, so you can go straight to any topic

Thanks for the best wishes on our survival of the bushfires. We had no fires within 50 miles of our place but we did get quite a bit of smoke. Visibility was reduced and it did stir up my asthma a bit. I was already audibly wheezing from house dust before the bushfire smoke started arriving. My wife decided to heavily cull our bookshelves after 30 years of hoarding and overloading. Even the Encyclopedia Brittanica went. I had all the symptoms of hay fever as well -- running nose and eyes, but curiously enough, my symptoms, even of asthma seem to be abating. Although I've had to use 'puffers' twice daily most of my life, I'm currently not needing any for days at a time.

The smoke situation here was no worse than when I was 8 years old in Melbourne during the 1939 fires in Victoria and during the 1990s fires in Sydney when actual ash was falling on my daughter's property at one of the northern beaches. The roads were closed off, delaying my return to Brisbane.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: January 18th, 2020, 7:35 am
by doogles
TheVat, your last posts prompted me to have another quick look at the literature on fine particulate matter and atherosclerosis. As you can see below, there were plenty of 2019 papers on the subject. I searched Google Scholar using the key words FINE PARTICULATE MATTER AND ATHEROSCLEROSIS and the following came up on the first page. The evidence for an association is massive, but it will take me a while to go through them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2018308201
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 741930270X
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5119306875
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6348359/
https://journals.lww.com/environepidem/ ... d.192.aspx
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/full/10.1289/EHP5360
https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 19-09546-5
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 7418319763
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3918308757

I recall seeing a reference out of the past that I was unable to process at the time in which labelled particles of less than 1 micron were inhaled by experimental animals. Following euthanasia, all of the tissues were checked for the labelled isotopes. I remember glancing at the results but I have not been able to relocate that article.

The hypothesis I expressed in VKorW regarding calcification of soft tissues in animals was based on the fact that our interstitial tissues are saturated with calcium and phosphorus and that the natural tendency is for these elements to just be deposited anywhere unless something like carboxylated vitamin K-dependent proteins are present to regulate their deposition.
van de Loo et al (1987; http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3492999) performed a laboratory experiment in which they produced concentrated solutions of salts of phosphates (Be, Ca, Mn and Zn) and of calcium (phosphate, oxalate and carbonate). There was a natural tendency for the salts to precipitate. When osteocalcin (vitamin K-dependent bone-gla-protein) was added to the solutions, this tendency to precipitation was inhibited. Precipitation-inhibition was produced for all phosphate and calcium salts, but the amount of osteocalcin needed to cause 59% inhibition, varied slightly between the various salts.

This experiment was quite simple and clever to my mind because it demonstrated that calcification of soft tissues is a natural, but organically-damaging process, that can only be prevented by having adequate vitamin K to produce fully-carboxylated osteocalcin.

It seems to me that something similar may happen with atherosclerosis, and please accept this as a hypothesis only. If you read about the process of atheroma formation, you will see that monocytes (only) first begin to adhere to the endothelium of blood vessels. Explained simplistically, chemo-attractive molecules draw them between the endothelial cells where they differentiate into macrophages and dendrocytes and ultimately become foam cells containing all sorts of rubbish and necrotic tissue known as atheromas. That's a very rough description.

But the question I ask myself is "What sets up the train of events that causes the monocytes to migrate between the endothelial cells and to differentiate into macrophages etc?" The presence of macrophages wold make one think that there is foreign material there to be mopped up.

As I've recorded in 'Vitamin K or a Wheelchair', early signs of atherosclerosis are found in infants, teens, and with increasing frequency in humans and other animals, as we age.

As you can see, my guess is that fine particulate matter passes through the alveoli into the blood stream and then through the vascular endothelium into the intima of arteries. Hence the process of macrophages accumulating under the endothelium with no escape route back into the circulation. Nah! That couldn't be right because we wouldn't be able to reproduce it experimentally with just a cholesterol and lard diet supplemented with vitamin D or warfarin.

There is evidence of course that vitamin K will prevent the experimental production of atherosclerosis because it carboxylates Protein C which, when activated (This activation is more complicated by the way than just simple carboxylation and phophorylation) counteracts every stage of the process of atheroma formation including the first step of production of vascular adhesion molecules that cause monocytes to stick to the endothelium in the first place.

What if it IS fine particulate matter, and that the reaction of monocyte accumulation to keep removing it is not being blocked by Activated Protein C because of a lack of vitamin K? If I was an addicted smoker, I would make sure I was taking plenty of vitamin K.

Just a thought.

There is plenty of evidence as you can see that fine particulate matter is associated with atherosclerosis. And my own case history has shown an association between taking adequate vitamin K and reversal of 50-75% stenosis of arteries.

I found a 2019 reference supporting the role of vitamin K in atherosclerosis. It was by Lees et al (2019; https://heart.bmj.com/content/105/12/938.abstract) in a paper titled Vitamin K status, supplementation and vascular disease: a systematic review and meta-analysis. They reviewed 27 previous papers and concluded that "supplementation with vitamin K significantly reduced VC (vascular calcification), but not VS (vascular stiffness), compared with control. The conclusions drawn are limited by small numbers of studies with substantial heterogeneity. Uncarboxylated vitamin k-dependent protein was associated with combined endpoint of cardiovascular disease or mortality."

The Abstract did not mention the amounts of vitamin Ks used in the supplements, but if you look at "Vitamin K or a Wheelchair" in which I have cited several trials, you will see that most trials have used doses that are far too low. In fact as far as I know, the only ultrasound tracings taken before and after 14 months of supplementation with 500 micrograms each of Vitamins K1 and K2 are those shown in the above manuscript using tracings of my own leg arteries.

The authors of the above 2019 review conclude that "Larger clinical trials of effect of vitamin K supplementation to improve VC, VS and long-term cardiovascular health are warranted." It's a common plea in research on vitamin Ks and has been a 'catchcry' now for decades. My judgment suggests that smaller numbers of subjects and the use of higher doses of vitamin Ks would give results within 6 to 12 months on any of the degenerative end-organ diseases -- so long as the degrees of degeneration are measurable. Much of the evidence also suggests to me that Vitamin K1 (as distinct from vitamin K2) has little effect on atherosclerosis and that Vitamin K2 is the vitamin of choice if atherosclerosis is under study.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 14th, 2020, 4:47 pm
by Graeme M
I haven't read this thread through, but it touches on an interest of my own. Cutting to the chase, I suspect that the evolution of lactase persistence in humans has led to a co-adaptation that requires sufficient Vit K2 in the diet. My rationale is based on research from Dr Constance Hilliard and a proposal regarding the calcium homeostasis mechanism in lactase persistent people put forward by Drs Aaron Williams and Ryan Glendenning.

In a nutshell, this is my reasoning. Humans adapted to consuming milk by several genetic variants that allowed the ongoing production of lactase. This happened very quickly wherever people began farming ruminants. In those populations, milk became a dietary staple, but prior to refrigeration it was consumed as fermented milks and soft cheeses. The co-adaptation I mentioned above meant that (if true) lactase persistent peoples had an excess of dietary calcium and so evolved a "relaxed" calcium homeostasis mechanism. This meant that calcium was less efficiently metabolised to bony structures and so the demand for calcium became higher in those populations.

As well, the availability of K2 in fermented milks and soft cheeses meant that it was no longer necessary to endogenously produce K2 from K1. K2 is important in effective deposition of calcium into bony structures - without K2 calcium tends to migrate into soft tissues and in particular into artery walls, leading to atherosclerosis. I suspect we no longer convert K1 to K2 at anything like the efficiency we once did (pre-lactase persistence).

The end result is that in lactase persistent people (most people of European descent), diets require large amounts of calcium as well as a regular source of K2. K2 is available from certain milk products as I mentioned (though not all yogurts due to production techniques). Failure to obtain enough K2 will lead to increased rates of atherosclerosis etc and can contribute to osteoarthritis, especially when calcium intake falls. As many older people tend to consume less, OA becomes a greater risk as people age.

Pointers to this possibility include the correlation of OA rates with dairy consumption, lowered rates of OA in some Asian nations (who may get suifficient K2 from fermented soy products) and the low rates of OA in non-lactase persistent populatipons (eg West Africans and African Americans).

As a result, I ensure adequate calcium intake, eat Natto when I can, and take a K2 supplement.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 15th, 2020, 5:15 am
by doogles
Good day to you Graeme M.

Have you any references to those research articles in paragraph 1?

I haven't seen any research relating to a role of lactose associated in any way with the activity of vitamin K, but I note in your paragragh 2, you say "In those populations, milk became a dietary staple, but prior to refrigeration it was consumed as fermented milks and soft cheeses." If 'natto' is a fermented soy product and is rich in vitamin K2-MK7, then it's quite possible to my mind that in the days before refrigeration, that milk 'on the turn' may have provided a source of vitamin Ks. And that is what you virtually say in paragraph 3.

Re the mention in para 4 of calcium deficiencies, much research was done in this area in farm animals and the established problem is not so much a deficiency of calcium per se as it is of a calcium: phosphorus imbalance in the diet. In this respect, in western diets we appear to have plenty of calcium and phosphorus. I'll cite a passage of the text of 'Vitamin K or a Wheelchair' -- "Our interstitial fluids are saturated with calcium and phosphorus compounds. When we are getting everything our bodies need, vitamin K acts as a regulator, making sure that any excess of calcium and phosphorus is deposited in bones. If we are short of vitamin K, much of it gets deposited in soft tissues such as atheromas, ligaments, tendons, liver, kidneys or wherever.

And this latter process is the 'natural' tendency, as the following clever experiment demonstrated.

van de Loo et al (1987; http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/3492999) performed a laboratory experiment in which they produced concentrated solutions of salts of phosphates (Be, Ca, Mn and Zn) and of calcium (phosphate, oxalate and carbonate). There was a natural tendency of the salts to precipitate. When osteocalcin (vitamin K-dependent bone-gla-protein) was added to the solutions, this tendency to precipitation was inhibited. Precipitation-inhibition was produced for all phosphate and calcium salts, but the amount of osteocalcin needed to cause 59% inhibition, varied slightly between the various salts.

This experiment was quite simple and clever to my mind because it demonstrated that calcification of soft tissues is a natural, but organically-damaging process, that can only be prevented by having adequate vitamin K to produce fully-carboxylated osteocalcin.

Apparently in the case of atherosclerosis, the process may involve a bit more than the passive dumping of calcium into the lesions. Smooth muscle cells in the walls of arteries apoptose (change into a new kind of cell) into osteocytes and secrete calcium into the atheromatous areas. The story seems to be that these calcified atheromas become somewhat brittle and that pieces break off, causing blockage of arteries down the track -- hence obstructive ischaemic heart attacks, acute strokes, or other manifestations wherever the blockages occur."


Throughout all of my research of the literature, I concluded, the same as you, that "Failure to obtain enough K2 will lead to increased rates of atherosclerosis etc and can contribute to osteoarthritis, ... " Under the heading of that 'etc', you can add cardiovascular disease, dementia, strokes, chronic kidney disease and spinal vertebral, disc and facet joint degenerations -- all as end-organ degenerative conditions secondary to poor blood supply caused by the primary atherosclerosis. As far as I can tell, calcium only comes into the overall picture, as far as vitamin Ks are concerned, in that it needs vitamin K-dependent proteins (such as matrix-gla-protein and osteocalcin) in order to be deposited into appropriate areas in the body.

Are you sure about dairy-based products being associated with osteoarthritis Graeme? I did a quick Google Scholar check and found these two articles, both of which suggest that there is less osteoarthritis in people on dairy products -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0701008000 and https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... /acr.22297. The second article actually found dairy products reduced OA in women, but were of no significance in men.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 15th, 2020, 5:52 pm
by Graeme M
G'day Doogles,

My suggestion re calcium and OA is based on the research of Dr Hilliard and the proposal from Drs Glendenning and Williams. See here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27408710

https://cedar.wwu.edu/orwwu/vol7/iss1/6/

In personal communication with Dr Hilliard, we discussed her research and its implications. I am not sure quite how this all went in the end as she has moved on to other concerns, but her primary focus was related to African American health concerns. She suggests a high risk factor for African Americans from calcium overload due to the actions of the calcium ion channel mediator TRPV6. Her hypothesis is that non-lactase populations have a lower calcium requirement due to a more efficient calcium homeostasis mechanism (in effect, all humans prior to animal domestication survived on lower calcium intakes than many modern humans) and thus consuming dairy at modern rates leads to higher risk of triple negative breast and prostate cancer in AA populations.

In terms of OA, Glendenning and Williams have suggested that the need for more calcium in lactase persistent populations is due to a co-adaptation. Generally speaking, it seems that genetic adaptation accrues very quickly in regard to available diets, probably for obvious reasons. So I think their hypothesis has merit. I have written to them but no reply.

In effect, what they say is that lactase persistent people need high levels of dietary calcium, possibly twice as much as ancestral groups. This means that when dietary calcium becomes less available (as when people age and eat less) or due to processes related to menopause etc, such people are at higher risk of OA. One sign for this might be greater rates of OA in lactase-persistent populations, which it appears may be the case.

The K2 link comes from my own research and thoughts about how quickly adaptation occurs. In early dairying populations, milk would have been consumed as yogurts, cheeses and the like. The most available forms of K2 (MK-7) are found in Natto and other fermented products like that, as well as soft cheeses and yogurts. Some people say we would have gotten enough from meat but that is in lesser amounts and is the less available MK-4 kind. So it seems reasonable to propose that along with the relaxed calcium homeostasis mechanism came a similar relaxation of endogneous conversion of K1 to K2, because dairying peoples were now eating cheese and fermented milk.

In regard to K2, this website is very good, as is the book by Dennis Goodman ("Vitamin K2 - the missing nutrient for heart and bone health").

http://vitamink2.org/

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 15th, 2020, 8:38 pm
by TheVat
Just to be clear - do you mean OA or OP (osteoporosis)? I know that calcium absorption is a problem with the latter.

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 15th, 2020, 10:18 pm
by Graeme M
Sorry, yes, Osteoporosis!!

Re: Vitamin K tablets are required daily

PostPosted: February 16th, 2020, 6:17 am
by doogles
Thank you for those refs Graeme M. As TheVat pointed out they were about osteoporosis being associated with lactose persistence and low calcium intakes. I looked up that last link you provided -- http://vitamink2.org/about-us/foundation/ -- and was surprised to see that there was an organisation actually promoting the use of vitamin Ks, because there seems to be an unfounded medical belief that it will cause intravascular thrombi in higher doses. There are a couple of running updates on the literature by the Linus Pauling Foundation and the Weston Price Foundation, but they don't tend to pro-actively encourage its use like vitamin K2.org.

I based this thread on a dissertation I wrote about my own experience and recovery from osteoarthritis of an ankle and a wrist, as well achieving an absence of anginas from cardiovascular disease, improved kidney glomerular filtration rates and disappearance of lower back pain. The dissertation is available for free on Smashwords (They have over 500,000 eBooks; just type SMASHWORDS into Google, and VITAMIN K OR A WHEELCHAIR into the Search box). It is all evidence-based and has over 100 direct links to original research. It explains the rationale for using both vitamins K1 and K2 simultaneously at 10 times the recommended daily allowance. I have summarised the available evidence to 2017 on the association between vitamin K deficiency and multiple end-organ degenerative conditions. I reviewed the 2019 literature, and found much more evidence to reinforce everything in the above manuscript. But curiously, although most papers suggest that more trials should be conducted, nobody is conducting any with adequate doses of vitamin Ks.

Trials to date appear to have used either doses that are too low, or else a misuse of vitamin K1 for atherosclerotic conditions, when vitamin K2 would have been indicated.

That dissertation by the way shows some ultrasounds of my own leg arteries before, and then 14 months after, vitamin K supplementation. Any arteries that were 50% stenosed showed normal tracings after 14 months. Occluded arteries have remained occluded, but I must have developed good collateral arteries because my right ankle osteoarthritis has become functional again in spite of the fact that both right and left anterior and posterior tibial arteries are occluded. Apparently, one of the complex vitamin K-dependent proteins (Activated Protein C) is a powerful angiogenetic agent.

The ultrasounds of my leg arteries by the way may be the only published evidence of reversal of atherosclerosis in the world.