Physics, Brain and  Free Will

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Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby socrat44 on September 4th, 2017, 2:11 am 

  Physics, Brain and  Free Will
======================
 
 The whole universe ( including human brain ) is acting out according to the laws of physics.
  Physics.
a)  according to Newton's / classical laws the universe is deterministic
     ( there is no room  for a free will)
b) according to quantum physics (The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle / Law )
  the universe (quantum particles in universe) obey statistical laws
(there is possibility for a free will )

Brain.
brain works on foundation of dualism :
a) consciousness
b) unconsciousness
#
a)  consciousness  obeys  classical laws
b) unconsciousness obeys quantum laws
==========================
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 3:00 am 

I don't know what you are talking about. Maybe because I'm not sure what your definition of unconsciousness is.
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby socrat44 on September 4th, 2017, 5:34 am 

zetreque » September 4th, 2017, 3:00 am wrote:I don't know what you are talking about.
Maybe because I'm not sure what your definition of unconsciousness is.


unconsciousness = subconsciousness
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby zetreque on September 4th, 2017, 12:54 pm 

socrat44 » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:34 am wrote:
zetreque » September 4th, 2017, 3:00 am wrote:I don't know what you are talking about.
Maybe because I'm not sure what your definition of unconsciousness is.


unconsciousness = subconsciousness


Ok I am still confused.

The act of breathing or your heart beating is subconscious so is that quantum physics? Is it really a dualism or a spectrum?
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby socrat44 on September 5th, 2017, 8:32 am 

According to scientific research, Conscious Mind makes up less  than 10 percent
of  total brain function and more than  90 percent belongs to Subconscious Mind .

Therefore talking about ''free will '' we need to think about two levels of deciding
a) free will on conscious level
b) free will on subconscious level
c) what is interaction between them
=========================
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby zetreque on September 5th, 2017, 2:54 pm 

If you are talking about what I think you are talking about, the 10% brain usage is a myth. Please cite some literature on that.

https://www.wired.com/2014/07/everythin ... 0-seconds/
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Re:   Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby someguy1 on September 5th, 2017, 7:32 pm 

socrat44 » September 4th, 2017, 12:11 am wrote: 
 
 The whole universe ( including human brain ) is acting out according to the laws of physics.
 


But this is not true.

What do we mean by the laws of physics? We might mean one of two things:

* The human-defined laws of physics as currently understood. These laws are constantly changing, from Aristotle to Galileo to Newton to Einstein and so forth.

* The "ultimate" laws of the universe, which may or may not exist. Perhaps there are none.

So you can't say with certainty that the universe obeys any ultimate laws. And regarding the human-discovered laws, the best you can say is that we have decent approximations valid locally.

I apologize in advance if you addressed these points, but my little brain throws an exception whenever a post starts off with something that I know to be untrue.

ps -- I went back and read the rest of your post. You are wrong about this conscious/unconscious thing. Those are abstract concepts used in some types of psychology, but they have no specific referent in neurology. As someone already mentioned, there are biological processes that we have control of (raising your hand above your head, shouting at the tv, etc.) and processes that we don't have control over (our heartbeat, etc.) Science has the concept of the autonomic nervous system and there are subdivisions within that too.

You are confusing psychology with neurology, physics with metaphysics.
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Re: Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby Inchworm on September 15th, 2017, 11:08 am 

socrat44 wrote:Therefore talking about ''free will '' we need to think about two levels of deciding
a) free will on conscious level
b) free will on subconscious level
c) what is interaction between them
Hi Socrat,

Your question is easy to answer if we consider that consciousness is due to the perception of an unexpected change by the mind: the one that is produced by the environment, or the one that is produced by the mind. The free will feeling would then be due to our mind's information suffering random changes, so there would not be what you call subconscious free will. Subconsciousness would be due to our automatism not having to be changed when no change happens in our environment. When we drive for instance, we don't have to think about what we do, we can think of anything else, but as soon as an unexpected change on the road strikes our eyes, we get aware of what is going on, because our mind faces an uncertain response and it needs to give one rapidly, so it needs to stay concentered on what is going to happen next. Free will is then about what we are going to do even if the outcome is not certain, it is linked to the feeling of taking a chance, but that feeling doesn't need a dangerous situation to be perceived, anytime we fell good about what is going to happen when we take a chance is also about free will.
Last edited by Inchworm on September 15th, 2017, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby zetreque on September 15th, 2017, 11:13 am 

One could argue that having to avoid an object on a road is not free will. You are just acting according to the situation the universe laid out and your mindset relying on past experiences.

Driving however a good example of the spectrum of a task going between subconscious and conscious.
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Re: Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby Inchworm on September 15th, 2017, 11:40 am 

If we define free will as taking a chance a new move will work better than an old one even if no response has ever been perceived from it, then I think that avoiding an unexpected object is still part of free will even if we don't have the time to try anything else if it doesn't work. Of course, if nothing urges, we can try anything that doesn't hurt and see if it works better this way. That's what scientific research is about. We take chances in everyday situations all the time, sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, but it doesn't really matter as long as we have the time to get back to our usual way. In fact, I think our mind works the same as the evolution of species as far as change is concerned: I think it has adapted the mutation/selection principle to its own time scale.
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Re: Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby zetreque on September 15th, 2017, 11:44 am 

How do you define a "new move"?
How do you know the new move is free will?
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Re: Physics, Brain and  Free Will

Postby Inchworm on September 15th, 2017, 12:45 pm 

I define a new move as a move that we have never tempted before, and it is free in the sense that it might or might not work properly. What it is free from is thus being part of what we already know. We feel free of creating unknown things, not to execute known ones. When we execute known things, we don't even have to think about them to begin with. Of course, we can feel free of changing known things, but it is the same as tempting an unknown move.
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