Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

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Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

According to SR, time passes at the same rate for everyone within their own frame of reference (which is stationary relative to themselves). This universal rate of time passage within a frame is the speed of light through time c (not to be confused with the speed of light through space c).

Other frames engaged in constant velocity relative to your stationary frame will exhibit different apparent rates of time. For example, the speed of light through time will look like 2c for both frames coming at each other at a relative velocity through space of .6c. The people in the other frame will look like they're moving at 2 times fast forward. If the two frames are separating at .6c through space, their speed of light through time will look mutually at .5c or half speed slow motion. These are just perspective appearances as the speed of light through time is still at normal c within each frame. This is in keeping with the relativistic principle that everything moves at a combined and limited rate of c and the faster the other frame appears to move through space, the slower it will appear to move through time.

But what if your frame is accelerating? You are now aware of your own motion relative to your own frame because of the force you feel. It's the same force you feel if you're in a gravitational frame according to GR. You'd think you'd be aging less relative to what you'd age if you weren't feeling a force. Many relativists believe this is the source of age difference but I'll prove later that it is not.

The force you feel is an imbalance in constant relative velocity and many say that once you're outside of the balanced conditions of SR, age difference occurs. But it's been discussed many times on this forum that acceleration does not cause age difference and that people stuck on a black hole would experience time passing at the normal rate for them while outside observers would see time stopped for them. I'm not sure but I think gravity time dilation is not reciprocal (the people in the hole would not see time stopped outside the hole) so it is inherently imbalanced and should cause permanent age difference. I'm not sure if this is true because I'm not into GR so could someone comment on this.

So if neither acceleration or gravity causes time to pass within a frame at a rate other than the normal rate within an inertial frame, it looks like permanent age difference can only occur between two frames in imbalance. I define that imbalance as an imbalance of information due to the delay of information caused by the limited speed of light.

Here's a side example before I get to the meat. If the sun was knocked out from the center of our solar system from below, the earth would receive its rays and enjoy circling nothing for 8 minutes until the reality that the sun was no longer there would reach us. Our delayed reality says the sun is there but the instantaneous reality says it isn't. Relativity arises as the reconciliation between the two realities, the two presents.

In the classic example of Alice leaving her twin brother on earth at .6c and either continuing on, stopping, or turning around at the 3 light year mark, we get 3 different results for age difference.

If she continues on, she's the same age as Bob because she is in a balanced constant velocity relative to Bob. In the delayed present between them, they'll each see the other as younger but in the instantaneous present, they are both the same age. There is no age difference.

If she stops, Bob will find out 3 yrs later. During that time, Bob had been under the impression that he was still engaged with Alice at the same .6c constant velocity. Alice initiated the change so she knew immediately that she was travelling at 0c relative to Bob but Bob was travelling at .6c relative to Alice until the news of Alice's change reached him 3 yrs later. After that, they re-established a constant relative velocity of 0c and were aging at the same rate again. This means, barring the ridiculous notion that there was an instantaneous age change between Bob and Alice, Alice would have aged 3/4 the rate Bob was aging during those 3 yrs between the re-establishment of constant velocity.

At the 3 ly mark, Alice and Bob were both 4 in the instantaneous present. Bob aged 4 yrs and Alice aged 3 during the imbalance of information, so when Bob received the news at 8, he knew Alice's instantaneous present age was 7; 1 yr less than his permanently.

If Alice turns around at the 3 ly mark, she would have aged 2/4 the rate Bob was aging during those 3 yrs between a constant velocity of .6c apart and .6c coming together. She will have aged 2 yrs less than Bob during that information gap and he would know that at 8, not at 10 as relativity states.

It's very difficult to understand how time passes at the same rate within the frames throughout the scenarios and causes a permanent age difference between the frames when no difference in aging rate occurs within the frames. The answer is not acceleration, it is how the delay of information requires a reconciliation between the delayed present and the instantaneous present. An example in the next post will clarify this.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The Alice,Bob,Charlie example

I won't start adding STD's as I think they intimidate too many people even though they mathematically explain the concepts clearly.

This classic example has Charlie passing Alice at the 3 ly mark both going at .6c but in opposite directions. At Charlie's closest pass to Alice, she will pass him her clock info to take back to Bob. There's no acceleration in this example. There's constant velocity between Alice and Bob, Bob and Charlie, Alice and Charlie so there can be no age differences between those 3 pairs. The difference occurs between Bob and Alice going apart and Bob and Charlie coming together. It becomes exactly like the Alice turning around example. Charlie doesn't age less than Bob, nor does Alice; it's Alice's clock info that ages 2 yrs less than Bob's.

The handoff is a handoff between the two realities. When Charlie transfers Alice's clock info to Bob on Earth, he is bringing Alice and Bob's past delayed present into the instantaneous present. Alice is still instantaneously the same age as Bob even though the clock signal she passed on to Charlie has aged 2 yrs less.

At the time Alice handed off her clock reading, she also sent a light signal back to Bob that Charlie was coming at .6c. Alice's signal would take 3 yrs before Bob would be aware of the change in relative velocity between him and Alice and him and Charlie. This is where the age difference would occur even though Charlie's clock was running at the same normal rate as Bob and Alice's.

This goes to show that acceleration has nothing to do with age difference. It occurs during the delay of information. I can't understand how something as non-physical as information can cause a physical phenomenon. I guess I don't care because the rest of this thread will show physical predictions based on the delay of information concept that relativity cannot.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

ralfcis » September 28th, 2018, 9:50 am wrote:
Other frames engaged in constant velocity relative to your stationary frame will exhibit different apparent rates of time. For example, the speed of light through time will look like 2c for both frames coming at each other at a relative velocity through space of .6c. The people in the other frame will look like they're moving at 2 times fast forward. If the two frames are separating at .6c through space, their speed of light through time will look mutually at .5c or half speed slow motion.

Not following this at all. It sounds like you are saying some frames will measure light velocity as 2c and others at .5c. If that is what you're saying, it's wrong.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Nope. There is the velocity of light through space and the velocity of light through time. When you are stationary, you move at the velocity of light through time. As you move relative to someone, he sees your movement through space slow down your movement through time. If you were to receive a tv signal from someone moving toward you at .6c, he would appear to move in 2xfast forward motion; Just like if you put your VCR in fast forward. He appears to move at twice the speed of light through time. Would you like an STD to show how this works graphically?
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Insofar as I can parse what you are saying, it’s not right.

All objects move at c through spacetime. But only light is observed to travel at c because all of its velocity is through space and none of it is through time. Massy objects divide their velocities, some allocated to space, some to time. To say that something appears to move at 2c through time is not a meaningful statement so far as I can tell, but maybe I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, or maybe you aren’t expressing it clearly. In any case nothing ever appears to move at 2c through spacetime, because nothing ever does.

As to your STDs, I doubt they would intimidate anyone here, as you stated earlier, unless, by STD, you are referring not to spacetime diagrams but to sexually transmitted diseases. :-)
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Good, you are parsing correctly. So here is the STD for my example of roundtrip Alice at .6c.

The bottom half is Alice separating and the top Alice returning. If you draw a light line from Bob =1, it will intersect Alice=2. Bob is transmitting a tv signal to Alice and he has 1 yr of content that is received by Alice over 2 yrs. Hence Bob looks to be moving in slow motion half speed. In his own frame he is stationary, purely moving through time at normal speed. If you draw a light line from Alice=1 it intersects Bob=2. The tv signal Bob sees of Alice is also viewing her at half speed.

Now go to the top half. Draw a light line from Bob=8 to Alice =7. Bob is now sending 2 yrs of tv content and Alice is receiving it in 1 yr. Bob looks to be moving through time at 2x fast forward or 2c. Same if you draw a light line from Alice=6 to Bob=9. Bob sees Alice to be moving through time at 2x fast forward or 2c. She sees herself moving at 1c through time (normal time rate) and 0c through space.

This is just a combination of illustrating reciprocal time dilation with the doppler shift ratio.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

I think what you are saying above is correct, but your interpretation is off.

You are saying, I think, that on Alice’s return leg, she is seeing Bob traveling at 2c through time, and vice versa. But this not right. On the return leg, Bob and Alice are both in inertial frames. According to Bob, he is at rest, and Alice is moving toward him at some velocity in spacetime, not just time. And vice versa. Alice considers herself on the return leg to be at rest with respect to Bob, so she says Bob is moving toward her at some velocity in spacetime, not just time. So there can’t be any 2c through time alone.

ETA: there can't be any 2c, period.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Okay there is a very fine point of interpretation. The formula is c2= vs2+vt2 where vs is the velocity through space and vt is the velocity through time (c/Y).

c/Y, the velocity through time, can never be greater than c. This does not mean you can't observe a person moving through time at 2c. His sped up time is like fast forward on a VCR but it's impossible to speed up time on a live feed. You can scan a laser pointer across the moon in faster than c but that's just an appearance, not real speed.

Let's say you are correct. How would you be able to differentiate a speed of .6c away from you and .6c towards you using the doppler shift ratio? You seem to accept .6c away from you would leave you watching a tv signal in half speed slow motion. What speed of motion would you expect to see of a tv signal from a ship approaching you? I and my STD say double speed and if the speed of light through time is c inside a stationary frame, the answer must be 2c.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

If I understand what you are arguing here, you seem to be suggesting (without necessarily thinking of it in these terms) that Bob is absolutely stationary with respect to Alice — that all of Bob’s motion is through time and none of it through space, regardless of what Alice thinks. What Alice says or thinks doesn’t matter. In this respect, I suppose Alice is to Bob, what Christine Blasey Ford is to the Republican Party. :-)

But according to Alice, during her return trip, she is stationary. All of her motion is through time and none through space, relative to Bob. Bob and the earth are traveling toward her, and some of Bob’s motion is through time and some through space. And this combined velocity is not more than c. And Alice is right — in her frame.
Last edited by davidm on September 28th, 2018, 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Nope, Alice is moving through time and space throughout her trip. Bob is only moving through time as is depicted in the STD. There is no switching of perspective. That std would look like this:

I've been here a long time, stds are not well understood here.
Last edited by ralfcis on September 28th, 2018, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

No, this is where you're wrong. According to Alice, she is stationary and Bob is in motion. And she is right, within her frame. This is a keystone of relativity theory. Are you a relativity denialist?
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

BTW, that Alice is stationary with respect to Bob isn't even special relativity -- it's Galilean relativity. You want to throw out Galileo too?
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Dave I see the confusion. I've presented the STDs from a stationary Bob perspective and then a stationary Alice perspective at the 1st half with bob moving throughout. I don't think you can read stds. This is just way off topic now.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Bob is moving with respect to Alice from her viewpoint, which means that with respect to her, all of his motion is not though time alone. It's through time and space. It's you who don't get STDs (hope that's true, if by STD you mean "sexually transmitted disease." :-))

Anyhoo, you apparently are arguing for an absolute at-rest frame, defying everything we know about the world. Good luck with that. I won't waste time arguing it.
Last edited by davidm on September 28th, 2018, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

ralfcis » September 28th, 2018, 3:53 pm wrote: I don't think you can read stds.

I can. You can't.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Unsurprisingly, we find Bob and not Alice in the (nonexistent) privileged frame. No doubt Bob is white, too. ;-)
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 Instantaneous aging

So far I have offered no proof that Bob does not instantaneously age one or 2 years after Alice stops or returns. Her change is sudden so why not a sudden change in his age? Or relativists might argue that the sweep in age might occur over the sweep in deceleration and re-acceleration. The key here is that the effects on the apparent motion through time (whether Bob's motions look sped up or slowed down) can be seen in the tv signal from Bob which correlates to a new relative velocity between Alice and Bob. That relative velocity can be used to derive the slope of new age lines. Ok, don't quit on me now, I will explain what this gobledegook means.

Age lines are a concept I just made up and they don't appear in relativity. What does appear in relativity are hyperbolic lines that join dilated time units over the spread of velocities through space as in this STD:

I know, I know, this is getting very painful but I'll give a few examples to explain this STD. Start at the hyperbolic line labeled t'=5. It joins all dilated times of t'=5 for the lines of velocity from v=0 to v=.8c so far as this STD can show. So for v=0, the stationary reference frame, t'=5=t=5 signifying no time dilation. But for v=.4c, t'=5 corresponds to t= 5.45. For v=.6c, t'=5 corresponds to t=6.25. For v=.8c, t'=5 corresponds to t=8.3333. As an exercise, you can correlate the points for t'=1 from v=0 to v=.9756c. hint all the t's are Y for each velocity. Fun stuff.

The age lines join the points from v=0 t'=5 to each t'=5 for every other velocity creating a distinctive slope where the stationary reference frame has the same instantaneous present age as the frame in motion. This will become clearer in examples.

What's important here is that when Alice changes her velocity, she will not see a sudden jump in the tv signal from Bob that will miss all of the content from year 4 to year 5. That will be spread out and joined by a new slope of age lines that will lead to the calculation of a new relative velocity between Bob and Alice even though Bob will still think his relative velocity hasn't changed when Alice made the change. That new relative velocity will no longer apply to reciprocal time dilation but will reflect the rate of age difference roll out between Bob and Alice. So while Y refers to time dilation, a new formula for Y' will be born here that applies to aging difference. Exciting isn't it? If only someone out there could understand what I'm saying. I guess, stay turned for the examples.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Yawn.
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

You're not excited Dave? I don't know if this is the Holy Grail but if it is I sure have been looking for it a long time. I guess you're just tired. Nite Nite Dave.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Here's my own STD:

It's irrefutable!
davidm
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Dave,
You're free to stay and maybe learn something or you're free to leave like you said you would but I don't believe you're free to throw you're tantrums here. Now shoo, I have work to do.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

I've run out of time. I can't make the math behave in any elegant way. Since I know the answers in advance I can force the math to give me the answers i want to see. I was expecting the age lines between the time Alice initiates the change of velocity and when Bob receives that info to have the same slope for each yr Bob ages and the common fraction of Bob's year Alice ages. But the slopes change hyperbolically. Perhaps Alice does not age less linearly during the transfer of info and I'm trying to force that result. I guess i'll show the problem in STDs and get back to it in the future when I have time.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The Alice,Bob,Charlie example

ralfcis » September 28th, 2018, 5:43 pm wrote:I can't understand how something as non-physical as information can cause a physical phenomenon.

Nor can I! It seems rather implausible to me. Perhaps you need to consider this point further, before assuming that your answers are correct. Especially if you can't get the math to work well.
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Yes, 2 big attempts so far from 2 different approaches and I still can't identify how age difference unfurls during the info blackout period. Outside of this, the approach works well at predicting the total age difference well before relativity can. The reason is, the speed of light that carries the info is much faster than waiting for Alice and Bob to reunite on earth and compare their aging. I'll keep thinking how to resolve the other problem but maybe I just don't have the math skills to solve it. Maybe relativity is correct that there's no way to establish how age difference progresses in real time but I'll never accept that.

P.S. Also the approach will show that any change in velocity, not just a stop or a turnaround, even a slight slowdown or a speed up will register a comparable partial age difference after the blackout period. So it's still useful for final answers that relativity can't even work out.

P.P.S. I was so sure that the imbalance between the relative velocities during the blackout period would translate into some hidden intermediate relative velocity that would generate a new Y (gamma) from which age difference could be derived. But this is not happening linearly.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

About your other point I can only say that physical phenomena are the results of the nature of reality. In ralfativity there are 2 types of reality, the delayed reality we constantly deal with and the instantaneous reality we can't see in the present and can only determine its condition after the fact. We know relativity deals with physical phenomena that arise from relative velocity, when 2 participants share the same relative velocity. But when Alice makes a change and that change takes time to propagate back to Bob, there is a time period where one participant is in the delayed reality thinking he is still engaged in a relative velocity of .6c with Alice while Alice is in an instantaneous relative velocity that is no longer at .6c. If relative velocity in normal delayed reality generates physical rules, perhaps relative velocity in an imbalanced reality generates real physical age difference as some kind of conservation of time rule.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

ralfcis » September 30th, 2018, 7:50 am wrote:About your other point I can only say that physical phenomena are the results of the nature of reality. In ralfativity there are 2 types of reality, the delayed reality we constantly deal with and the instantaneous reality we can't see in the present and can only determine its condition after the fact. We know relativity deals with physical phenomena that arise from relative velocity, when 2 participants share the same relative velocity. But when Alice makes a change and that change takes time to propagate back to Bob, there is a time period where one participant is in the delayed reality thinking he is still engaged in a relative velocity of .6c with Alice while Alice is in an instantaneous relative velocity that is no longer at .6c. If relative velocity in normal delayed reality generates physical rules, perhaps relative velocity in an imbalanced reality generates real physical age difference as some kind of conservation of time rule.

In ralfativity there are 2 types of reality, the delayed reality we constantly deal with and the instantaneous reality we can't see in the present and can only determine its condition after the fact.
"Instantaneous reality" relative to which clock?

We know relativity deals with physical phenomena that arise from relative velocity, when 2 participants share the same relative velocity.
Relativity is a claim that all observers will see the speed of the light moving the same speed. Everything beyond that is math.

But when Alice makes a change and that change takes time to propagate back to Bob, there is a time period where one participant is in the delayed reality
A time period measured by which clock?

Alice while Alice is in an instantaneous relative velocity that is no longer at .6c.
Instantaneous according to whose clock?

If relative velocity in normal delayed reality generates physical rules, perhaps relative velocity in an imbalanced reality generates real physical age difference as some kind of conservation of time rule.
"conservation of time rule"
A stationary observer on the ground sees a space ship flying by at 0.9c. The passage of time observed on the ship is slowed by some amount, as seen by those observers. When a person riding the spaceship looks out the window at observers on the ground, (consequently) he should see the observers' clocks moving faster?

Special Relativity predicts that the person on the ship sees the stationary observers moving slower in time also. I am not even joking. So give that some thought, vis-a-vis a "conservation of time".

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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

davidm » September 29th, 2018, 1:49 am wrote: Are you a relativity denialist?

You must be new here.

hyksos
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

I'd just like to say Hyksos I've been a fan for a long time and I'm honored that you're engaging here. I think you're a genius and you're far smarter than I'll ever be. You already know all what's below and I need to prove to you I know it too.

Ok let's talk about clocks. Clocks, separated by distances, are synchronized within a frame using a light signal to set them to the same time. So in my STD, if there's a planet 3 ly from earth, and it's not moving at any appreciable relative velocity to earth, its clocks can be synchronized to earth time. Year 5 on earth is year 5 on this planet because earth told it so. That can be verified from the planet because it can send a signal back which takes 3 yrs to reach earth in year 8. Earth takes into account the travel time and says, yes, when earth was 5, planet x was also 5.

These are the lines of present that sync time for all space within a frame but there is still a delay of information between points in space no matter if the clocks agree on the time. You can't know what the present was on planetx at 5 in the present on earth at 5 until 3 yrs later. Only then can we know what the instantaneous present was.

A further flaw in this clock sync method is that the lines of present are frame specific, the lines can't join the same time for frames that may have their own clock sync within themselves but are engaged in relative motion with another frame. Both distance and velocity will affect how far off the clock readings are on lines of present from one frame to another.

In my example, Bob's line of present at t=5 sees Alice's clock at t=4. Alice's line of present (which is not horizontal) at t=4 joins Bob's clock at t=3.2.

So how do we get the correct instantaneous time unaffected by delays of clock information between all moving frames? The answer is in those hyperbolic lines which I showed in my STD. Those lines join the same time for any relative velocity throughout all space.

Now i define my age lines as joining two points on a hyperbolic time line (let's say t'=5) that connect the same time between two different relative velocities (in my example the lines join v=0 and v=.6c). Here is the std:

The purple line is the horizontal line of present from Bob's stationary frame to Alice's moving frame. The red line is Alice's line of present to Bob's frame. (Alice sees her lines of present within her own frame as horizontal and Bob's as slanted.)

The blue lines are my age lines based on the hyperbolic lines of instantaneous present. They are not subject to change due to perspective. What's interesting to note is that if I added a speed of .33c to the std, the slope of its lines of present would be identical to the slope of my age lines at .6c.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Here is an STD of Alice stopping at the 3 ly mark:

The blue lines are the age lines. Alice and Bob age at the same rate before Alice stops as is illustrated by the same slope of the age lines before this point. Alice and Bob also age at the same rate after the information (pink light signal line) that Alice has stopped as is illustrated by the same horizontal blue lines indicating a new relative velocity of 0c between the two.

The problem is the age lines during the relative velocity imbalance period do not have the same slope if you assume the age difference between the two unfurls linearly during that period. The faster the speed of Alice's return, the wilder the slope deviation of those lines during the info blackout period.
ralfcis
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Re: Ralfativity 3.0 The cause of age difference

Here's the std of Alice returning at .6c:

The relative velocity before turnaround is -.6c and after Bob hears the news of the turnaround it's +.6c as is illustrated by the new consistent slope of the age lines. Notice Alice does not need to make it all the way back to earth for Bob to know she has aged 2 yrs less than he. He knows at t=8 that his age line intersects Alice at t=6. She does not age differently from Bob after this point because they are engaged in a new constant relative velocity and this means they can't age at a different rate according to relativity.

The problem is the age lines during the blackout period are even more skewed in relation to each other. probably there's a math formula that can smooth out the skew but does this really reflect on how the age difference unfurls during the blackout period?
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