Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Discussions unearthing human history including cultural anthropology, linguistics, etc.

Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 22nd, 2018, 4:02 am 

I had a little discussion with a Vegan the other day. They were convinced by The China Study.

What really got my attention was how adamant they were about humans not being prolific meat eaters and I found this hard to swallow (which coincidently was the premise of their "argument"!)

I did get to thinking about evidence for how early in homo-X history we started to use fire? What evidence is there for man's, or protoman's, use of fire?

Also, keep coming across articles about ketogenic diets. There is a lot of interest in this area and wondered if anyone has been researching this more thoroughly than my brief perusals here and there?

I have been convinced for sometime about the future of medicine in general being one in which bacteria and diet will subsume the greater part of pharmaceutical, what I call, "quick fix" methods and that we'll learn more about epigenetics and how best equipped our individual make-up is for adaption to lactose and such.

The most interesting point for me is in the brain chemistry and the ketose propounded to be very beneficial to general "mental health." What doesn't ad up for me in the idea of the ketone diet is the lack of fructose? This is because I am aware that our digestion tract most closely resembles that of a gibbon's, which eat something in the region of a 90% fruit based diet - of course I am stretching here because I am in no way sure of the correspondence between morphological similarities and general function of the two digestive systems of humans and gibbons and whether it is really significant.

I am especially interested in endocrine system and general brain chemistry here in terms of the different effects of different sugars on brain function. Just fishing for some interesting nuggets, not had time to go indepth on this subject myself.

Thanks
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Watson on February 22nd, 2018, 4:14 pm 

I'm not sure if this is overall relevant but I have been reading "The Sugar Solution" by Sari Harrar
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby someguy1 on February 22nd, 2018, 5:40 pm 

I like to eat chopped up dead cows, covered with melted fermented bovine mammary fluid.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby SciameriKen on February 22nd, 2018, 6:15 pm 

I saw your post this morning -- then saw this: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... diet-reset might be useful :D
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 23rd, 2018, 12:46 am 

SciameriKen » February 23rd, 2018, 6:15 am wrote:I saw your post this morning -- then saw this: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... diet-reset might be useful :D


It saddens me when the main focus is in "weight loss", like people assume that means "healthy."

Is paralith still around??
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby zetreque on February 23rd, 2018, 2:05 am 

BadgerJelly » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:46 pm wrote:
SciameriKen » February 23rd, 2018, 6:15 am wrote:I saw your post this morning -- then saw this: https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... diet-reset might be useful :D


It saddens me when the main focus is in "weight loss", like people assume that means "healthy."



The vast majority of people's problems these days in the US (I assume abroad too) is obesity. So the mainstream focus is on weight loss because of that and if you know anything about health, body fat is a no no (unless you are living 1000+ years ago and put on fat just for the winter through 100% unprocessed foods that your tribe has been utilizing for generations). What you want is muscle.

It's not to say that there isn't a smaller segment of the population who have the opposite problem of being skinny. There is a term for them "The skinny fat syndrome." Which means that skinny people are becoming extremely ill because their bodies instead of storing fat in adipose tissue, they are storing the fat in their organs and just out of shape. Skinny people are getting fat internally rather than externally because of their biology and gene expression. Even active people eating the wrong diets because of the microbiome and gene expression can be in bad shape due to the body storing fat because of excess calorie intake (mostly from sugar).
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on February 23rd, 2018, 3:00 am 

I agree with Zetrique that overweight is generally 'unhealthy'. There are tolerance levels of being overweight of course.

I liked the article provided by Sciameriken. It paints a different picture very well.

And I think BadgerJelly is on track for querying some aspects of the The China Study.

I'd like to contribute a couple of points. I see where Wikipedia records some questions about Colin and Thomas Campbell's book -- The China Study -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study. -- "In a written debate with Campbell in 2008, nutritionist Loren Cordain argued that "the fundamental logic underlying Campbell's hypothesis (that low [animal] protein diets improve human health) is untenable and inconsistent with the evolution of our own species." Campbell argued that "diet–disease associations observed in contemporary times are far more meaningful than what might have occurred during evolutionary times—at least since the last 2.5 million years or so.".[14]
"The book was reviewed by Harriet Hall, a physician and skeptic who writes about alternative medicine, in a blog entry posted on the Science-Based Medicine website in 2009. Hall argued that the book had references which do not support directly the claims made by the authors. She also stated that the book does not explain the exceptions to his data—for example that "stomach cancer rates are higher in China than elsewhere in the world"[15] or that there are cultures whose diet includes high intake of animal protein, such as the Maasai people and the Eskimos, but that do not have the health issues described by the authors. While not within the scope of the study, Inuit, Yupik and Inupiat peoples in North America, and northern Siberian indigenous peoples have demonstrated genetic adaptations for an arctic diet.[16] This is specifically a variant of the CPT1A enzyme which regulates the break down of stored fat.[17]"


BadgerJelly, you queried the Campbells' statement about ancestral diets - "What really got my attention was how adamant they were about humans not being prolific meat eaters and I found this hard to swallow (which coincidently was the premise of their "argument"!)"

I think there may be a large amount of archaeological evidence about that, and Forest Dump no doubt would have much to say about it.

But there are a few witness reports available about the diets of Australian Aborigines in the early days of western settlement. There is a report on the following site by Edward John Eyre, an early Australian explorer -- https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/e/eyre/e ... pter3.html . It is a short but comprehensive report which leaves no doubt that animal products formed a major part of their diet.

One would expect that all ancient cultures would have eaten any animal or plant food that was available at any time of the year. And don't forget that our remote ancestors would have needed to run down, swim for, climb for or dig for their food. It required exercise and fitness.

Another piece of evidence in favour of animal diets was the article in Lancet last year which studied 130,000 people from 18 countries on five continents for 7 years and concluded that the higher the percentage of fats of all kinds in the diet, the greater the longevity. From memory, the P value on this point was something like 0.001. To my mind, this just about makes the cholesterol religion irrelevant.

Ketosis is the cause of a sudden death disease in fat pregnant sheep by the way. It is called 'Pregnancy Toxaemia' or 'Twin Lamb Disease'. It usually affects ewes carrying twins or triplets. The theory is that the foeti drain more glucose from the mother's blood supply than they can mobilise. Massive acute fat metabolism results in a huge accumulation of ketones. It is not clear whether death results from the ketones or from the acyte hypoglycaemia.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 23rd, 2018, 4:01 am 

doogles -

It required exercise and fitness.


That was generally my point with the obsession with "weight loss" over general fitness.

My comment was toward the person I was speaking to the other day btw; not Campbell. I've not read the study, but a brief glance made me suspicious of the people they were monitoring due to the above ... fitness and exercise. I think if you're comparing rural life in China with western city life (where people are known for exercising very little) I think you have a very telling piece of the puzzle conveniently ignored? Again, I have no idea if the study took this into consideration or not?

One thing I do think Chinese medicine got right was the old view of "change your diet" is sick, then if that doesn't work go to hospital and get "modern" treatment.

Maybe Neuro could chime in regarding brain chemistry and ketose? I have heard a few times the mention of ketose giving a "euphoric" and "happy" feeling compared to glucose? I find such claims a little hard to swallow and wondered if this was simply subjectively experienced or whether the chemical process backed this up in some way.

I should add given the evolutionary path of this biochemical process, to stave of starvation, it makes me wonder about a connection to ASC (altered states of consciousness), that being something of deep interest to me considering I've induced one of those kinds of experiences myself (after losing 10 kilos very quickly.) Of course I am being extremely speculative here given the complexity of these processes.

Even so ... I still find the idea of keto diet as being optimal hard to swallow due to the insistence of "no to little fruit" because of the comparison I mentioned to gibbons and their diet.

Zeq -

As a vague marker of "health" I agree completely. I just think it is something people buy into as the only factor and I think because we're so visually driven creatures the whole visual weight factor plays into this bias. For feel good and prolonged mental health there is more to nutrition the being "over" or "under" weight - not that I am suggesting you are saying anything other than this; just pointing out the obvious and people's general attempts to cut corners and ignore the constant proclamations of "diet and EXERCISE." I find it saddening when people hear "diet" they assume it as a verb for "weight loss" rather than as a general category of investigation into assessing what we eat and how our bodies cope with different food stuffs according to our exposure and genetic propensities - again, this is why I cannot get over the emphasis of keto diet abstaining from fruit/fructose; it seems to counter our general dietary history doesn't it?

Note: I have a fast metabolism and have tended toward "under" weight ... once I actually did some serious non-stop physical work for 15 hours a day for 3 months (pretty much 7 days a week!) I gained muscle mass that has never really fallen off - here I wonder about the epigenetic factor and whether or not I'd have the muscle mass I have now if I'd never put my body under such physical "punishment."

Complicated and deeply fascinating stuff. I wish I had time to look into this more thoroughly, but I must attend to more immediate studies for the moment. How does any of this relate to vitamin K (if at all?)
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 23rd, 2018, 4:10 am 

For your interest and perusal:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones

All of us who are metabolically healthy will shift into some amount of ketosis, typically overnight while we are sleeping. If your breath is a little funky when you wake up, and your urine smells a bit strong, you may well be in ketosis, which, unless you are a poorly controlled diabetic (a different kind of pathologic ketosis occurs in uncontrolled diabetes), being in ketosis in the morning is a good sign of a healthy metabolism(link is external). What does ketosis mean to the brain, and why would it be more healthy, perhaps, than our regular old carbohydrate burning metabolism? And does the high carbohydrate, low fat diet of constant snacking have a cost to our brains by robbing us of more regular and deeper bouts of ketosis?


I think it is important to construct some questions and measure the pro's and con's here. That we've never really need a huge intake of carbs is interesting; although given the population of humans I imagine it is a necessary that most of us do or we'd literally starve? (Is that true? Not sure, just a speculative guess!)

To the neurochemistry ...

So it looks like modified Atkins (very very low carb, but not zero carb) and a preponderance of MCT is the same, ketone-wise, for the brain as the classic ketogenic diet. And what does it mean to have a ketogenic brain? Let's examine neurotransmitters and brain energy more closely. Specifically, glutamate and GABA (5(link is external)).

GABA is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter(link is external) in the mammalian nervous system. Turns out, GABA is made from glutamate, which just happens to be the major excitatory neurotransmitter. You need them both, but we seem to get into trouble when have too much glutamate. Too much excitement in the brain means neurotoxicity, the extreme manifestation of which is seizures. But neurological diseases as varied as depression, bipolar disorder(link is external), migraines, ALS, and dementia have all been linked in some way to neurotoxicity.

Glutamate has several fates, rather like our old buddy tryptophan. It can become GABA (inhibitory), or aspartate (excitatory and, in excess, neurotoxic). Ketogenic diets seem to favor glutamate becoming GABA rather than aspartate. No one knows exactly why, but part of the reason has to do with how ketones are metabolized, and how ketosis favors using acetate (acetoacetate is one of the ketone bodies, after all) for fuel. Acetate becomes glutamine, an essential precursor for GABA.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby zetreque on February 23rd, 2018, 4:15 am 

BadgerJelly, I agree with your response to me. What I said was also an oversimplification.
The overwhelming majority of the medical and health world is living in the dark ages so I was just responding to the reason that most people think of weight as the issue rather than biology and all the complexities that make up our weight and bodies. Actually, if we wanted to be literal, if a person weighs a lot and is mostly muscle built through a foundation of healthy diet and exercise, that is supposed to be healthy and can result in long life.

As for paralith, That's a good question. :)
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 23rd, 2018, 4:19 am 

note: The question of vitamin K should've been aimed at doogles (Oops!)
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on February 23rd, 2018, 4:51 am 

BadgerJelly -- "Complicated and deeply fascinating stuff. I wish I had time to look into this more thoroughly, but I must attend to more immediate studies for the moment. How does any of this relate to vitamin K (if at all?)"

Thanks for the question. Vitamin K hasn't been mentioned till now in tis thread, but having been asked to make a connection I would respond that vitamin K is a fat soluble vitamin. I would say that vitamin K in plants is tightly bound to chloroplasts which are not easily digested (refs available). If you partake of a high animal fat diet, you are more likely to receive the fat-soluble vitamins A, E, D, and K, which are all fat soluble. And remember that Lancet article late last year that found a very high association between the percentage of fat in diets and longevity.

Also bear in mind a review I've cited previously that even Dementia is associated with low vitamins A, D, E and K (all fat-soluble) and that the only studies ever made have been on vitamin E -- with mixed results. So because of the cholesterol religion, we all avoid fats in our diets. A simple three-months study, involving people in retirement homes, would elucidate that relationship. But who's going to finance a research project for vitamins that anyone can buy over the counter?

This is the reason why the recent Lancet report associating a high percentage of fats in our diets to longevity, seems so relevant to me.

It's somewhat off topic, but because of my own spectacular reversal of so many geriatric conditions after vitamin K supplementation, I'm as convinced as anyone can be that the main (generally unrecognised) attribute of vitamin K is it's regulatory effect on arterial wall integrity. I'll amplify only if anyone is interested.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Braininvat on February 23rd, 2018, 11:13 am 

I've followed the lit quite a bit and have seen little evidence for longterm weight loss on ketogenic diets. People need to remember that it's processed carbs that have been more the problem. Hunters gatherers who eat rhizomes and vegetables in a more natural form tend not to have the insulin issues, and carbs, remember, are often excellent sources for many vitamins and fiber. Some ketogenic fad diets are constipating and setting up future colon cancer, as well as lacking important plant nutrients and phytochemicals. I am interested in archeological findings on what proportion of h-g diets were from the gathering (given that game is often scarce). And I would guess that fat intake was overall lower, given the lack of distilled vegetable oils, and relative leanness of wild game. Vitamin K2 -- interesting stuff as we've chatted on before here. H-G bands might have gotten some from wild ungulates and from stealing eggs from nests.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby zetreque on February 23rd, 2018, 2:09 pm 

ketogenic diets don't just add fats to the processed sugar carb rich diets. They restrict sugar carbs. Therefor you get weight loss.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on February 24th, 2018, 6:59 am 

I'd like to make a couple of parting comments on this thread because it appears to be petering out.

I provided a good reference to the eye witness accounts of the diets of stone age people in the form of the Australian Aborigines which suggests that they ate anything that was available at any given time of the year, and which was non-toxic and digestible. Animal products were high on the list. Also no early photographs of hunter-gatherer Australian Aborigines after the 1860s ever showed an overweight person.

The dentition alone of our ancestors is good evidence that they had evolved to eat meat and vegetables.

Broad reviews of weight gain or weight loss diets indicate that the weight outcome of humans can be evaluated in terms of the daily Calories-in versus daily Calories-out alone, no matter what the dietary regime being evaluated.

The latest scientific study suggests that higher longevity (and therefore maybe health) is associated with higher percentages of fats in the diet. The rest is padding.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby BadgerJelly on February 27th, 2018, 4:39 am 

doogles -

Hope it doesn't peter out. It is just not part of my main line of studying right now (except in regards to neuroscience and brain chem. - my specific interest is in ASCs and how fasting and such things effect cognition and psychology.)

If you can point out any tenuous link to vitamin K you've found in your personal research I'd be VERY happy to hear about that.

On the archeological perspective I keep finding little bits of information in Levi-Strauss and other works referring to the mythological significance of agriculture from hunting; Levi-Strauss has just mentioned something about the strings of bows from either animal sinew or plant fibers as being symbolic representations in mythological narratives.

Another point of reference would be to pull in Eliade's ideas of "heirophany" too. The "mediatory" aspect of human's understanding and mythological reconstruction of the "cosmos" so as to better deal with abstract concepts - to "physicalize" the thought and make it more tangible (wherein lie obvious problems for the "group's" understanding.

Sorry, digressing a bit! Just trying give you an idea about what I am looking at. That is the psychological effect and the neuropsychological happenings in a empirical sense - ie. what the brain chemistry can correlate to; if anything?

Vitamin K doesn't seem to have much direct impact upon the brain right? I guess you'll point out where my thought is wrong.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on February 28th, 2018, 8:14 am 

I'm sorry BJ, but I'm not quite sure where you would like to me to attempt to comment. I have no memory stores relating to Levi-Strauss or Eliade. To date they have been outside of my fields of thinking. It may be to my loss, but no one has heretofore ever related any of their thinking to me.

You have mentioned " ... the psychological effect and the neuropsychological happenings in an empirical sense - ie what the brain chemistry can correlate to; if anything?"

I have feeling that you are alluding to something different from the well-known effects of psychedelic chemicals on the interpretations of sensory inputs, and of the effects of legitimate pharma-psychotropic-drugs on mood states such as depression and anxiety.

There's a massive amount of literature on these subjects. The effects are all biochemical.

Maybe you are looking along the lines of things like Kimberly Horse Disease, wherein an apparently 'normal' horse eats a particular plant (This is off the top of my head and not researched for the post), and then abnormally begins to walk like a zombie in a straight line and is found dead at the foot of a tree. The tree has obviously obstructed its progression and it has kept pressing into it till has dropped dead.

In line with the above, I once tried a new 'pre-medication' for a horse. I was always looking for such in the literature. For decades I'd been trying new 'tranquillisers', but all turned out to be unpredictable in their effects. I had to castrate two young horses. An article appeared in the Australian Veterinary Journal suggesting that thiambutane ("Themalon") before Thiopentobarbitone was useful. I was familiar with this drug because I'd used it extensively in dogs with success. After I'd injected the first colt, it began to ambulate like a horse with Kimberley horse disease. It was compulsive and incessant. The best we could do was to keep the animal walking in a circle while controlling it by its halter. We were hoping it would pause so that we could inject it with the pentothal: it was very fatiguing. In the finish I injected the pentothal into the jugular vein while it was still pressing on, and did the castration while it was down. I regarded this response as an idiosynchrasy and tried it on the second colt with exactly the same result. I went back home, reviewed the article, only to find small print stating that some horses could develop hyperkinesis from the Themalon.

So an alkaloid in a plant and a pharma-product could biochemically alter the mind set and locomotory behaviour of an animal.

I'm sure that the literature could provide dozens of examples of this sort of chemical modification of behaviour.

Take vitamin B1 deficiency. Acute deficiency results in ataxia, loss of consciousness, and convulsions in sheep and cattle and even humans. At the stage of a biochemical lesion, the condition can be miraculously reversed in sheep with 4 mL of 10% thiamine solution into the jugular vein. I published a case history in 1967. Left to die, such animals show polioencephalomalacia or cerebrocortical necrosis lesions.

I'm still not sure whether this is the sort of biochemical interactions you are seeking.

But on the question of vitamin K and brain function -- "Vitamin K doesn't seem to have much direct impact upon the brain right? I guess you'll point out where my thought is wrong..", there is some indirect and direct literature available.

Firstly, I have to emphasise that vitamin K has been amply shown to be a REGULATOR of blood clotting processes (It is a cofactor in the manufacture of two anticlotting agents - proteins C & S). It has also been amply shown to be a REGULATOR of whether calcium is deposited in bones or soft tissue. What is not well known is that it also appears to be an essential co-factor in vascular tissue endothelial integrity. There is a protein called THROMBOMODULIN, produced by vascular endothelial cells, that combines with free thrombin in the blood stream to form a complex that is taken into endothelial cells where the thrombin is metabolised and the thrombomodulin recycled. This process fails if Proteins C and S are not present. Proteins C and S are not available if vitamin K is not available for their manufacture. So thrombomodulin cannot maintain the integrity of vascular endothelium unless there is adequate vitamin K.

I have not found any literature yet associating this with the 'fatty streaks' that represent the initial stages of atherosclerosis, but I am willing to bet that vitamin K has something to do with the prevention of monocytes from migrating between endometrial cells into the intima layer to produce atheromas. I do know that vitamin K reversed my arterial stenosis in all arteries with a 50% closure.

I now believe that primary atherosclerosis due to vitamin K deficiency is the cause of osteoarthritis, nephrosis, myocardial ischaemia, strokes, dementia and who knows whatever other organs that become deficient in blood supply
.
Literature associated with dementia from atherosclerosis and direct effects of vitamin K on brain health:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3696093282 -- Atherosclerosis, apolipoprotein E, and prevalence of dementia and Alzheimer's disease in the Rotterdam Study by Bots et al
Interpretation
"These findings suggest that dementia and its two major subtypes Alzheimer's disease and vascular dementia are associated with atherosclerosis and that there is an interaction between apolipoprotein E and atherosclerosis in the aetiology of Alzheimer's disease."

https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/ ... 49/284432/ -- Cerebrovascular atherosclerosis correlates with Alzheimer pathology in neurodegenerative dementias by Mark Yarchoan et al
" These results provide further confirmation and specificity that vascular disease and Alzheimer’s disease are interrelated and suggest that common aetiologic or reciprocally synergistic pathophysiological mechanisms promote both vascular pathology and plaque and tangle pathology"

http://advances.nutrition.org/content/3/2/204.full -- Vitamin K and the Nervous System: An Overview of its Actions by Guylaine Ferland
Abstract
"The role of vitamin K in the nervous system has been somewhat neglected compared with other physiological systems despite the fact that this nutrient was identified some 40 y ago as essential for the synthesis of sphingolipids. Present in high concentrations in brain cell membranes, sphingolipids are now known to possess important cell signaling functions in addition to their structural role. In the past 20 y, additional support for vitamin K functions in the nervous system has come from the discovery and characterization of vitamin K–dependent proteins that are now known to play key roles in the central and peripheral nervous systems. Notably, protein Gas6 has been shown to be actively involved in cell survival, chemotaxis, mitogenesis, and cell growth of neurons and glial cells. Although limited in number, studies focusing on the relationship between vitamin K nutritional status and behavior and cognition have also become available, pointing to diet and certain drug treatments (i.e., warfarin derivatives) as potential modulators of the action of vitamin K in the nervous system. This review presents an overview of the research that first identified vitamin K as an important nutrient for the nervous system and summarizes recent findings that support this notion."
The full article is available free. It is an excellent review and leaves no doubt that vitamin K is essential for a healthy functioning brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1902 ... t=Abstract -- Low vitamin K intakes in community-dwelling elders at an early stage of Alzheimer's disease. by N Presse et al.
The authors concluded " Despite their limitations, results are in line with the most recent research in both vitamin K and Alzheimer's disease and suggest a need to consider vitamin K in future investigations on the role of diet in Alzheimer's disease."

As a personal comment, I absolutely do not understand why everybody, let alone geriatrics with dementia have never been subjected to controlled supplementation with vitamin K and other fat-soluble vitamins. The literature has been available for more than forty years.

The Alzheimers research appears to be focussed on esoteric pursuits -- tau proteins, beta amyloids and a myriad of other irrelevant biochemical anomalies without addressing the obvious. There is an obvious reason, isn't there?
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Braininvat on February 28th, 2018, 11:09 am 

If we are putting this in archaeology forum, isn't this more about evidence accrued from digs -- examination of what sorts of bones are in middens and in what proportions, analysis of human skeletal remains, patterns of tooth wear, figuring out length of growing seasons, etc.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Braininvat on February 28th, 2018, 11:15 am 

. A brief review of the archaeological evidence for
Palaeolithic and Neolithic subsistence
MP Richards
Department of Archaeological Sciences, University of Bradford, Bradford, UK

Knowledge of our ancestor’s diets is becoming increasingly important in evolutionary medicine, as researchers have argued that
we have evolved to specific type of ‘Palaeolithic’ diet, and many modern nutritional disorders relate to the mismatch between
the diet to which we have evolved, and the relatively newer agricultural-based ‘Neolithic’ diets. However, what is the
archaeological evidence for pre-agricultural diets and how have they changed over the four million years of hominid evolution?
This paper briefly introduces the three lines of evidence we have for Palaeolithic and Neolithic diets; morphological changes,
archaeological material evidence, and direct measurement of diet from bone chemistry. The morphological changes, increasing
gracilization of the mandible and increasing brain size have been interpreted (based on analogies with living primates) as the
move from plants to higher-quality, more digestible, animal meat, although this is debated. The archaeological evidence is
especially weak, as many organic materials, especially plants, do not survive well, and are therefore invisible in the archaeological
record. Artefacts, such as stone tools which are likely to be used for hunting and animal bones with evidence of human
processing and butchering do indicate that hunting did occur at many times in the past, but it is impossible to judge the
frequency. Direct evidence from bone chemistry, such as the measurement of the stable isotopes of carbon and nitrogen, do
provide direct evidence of past diet, and limited studies on five Neanderthals from three sites, as well as a number of modern
Palaeolithic and Mesolithic humans indicates the importance of animal protein in diets. There is a significant change in the
archaeological record associated with the introduction of agriculture worldwide, and an associated general decline in health in
some areas. However, there is an rapid increase in population associated with domestication of plants, so although in some
regions individual health suffers after the Neolithic revolution, as a species humans have greatly expanded their population
worldwide.
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2002) 56, doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1601646


Also...

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2115127-ancient-leftovers-show-the-real-paleo-diet-was-a-veggie-feast/
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby zetreque on February 28th, 2018, 11:44 am 

One line of evidence to follow is C3 vs C4 plants. They can look at ancient human remains for ratios of these plants. Pretty much all present day Americans are walking C4's thanks to our current diet of corn. Eating meat might also give you C4s since your grazers will be eating C4's which then you eat from the meat.

Tooth structure is another good case for ancient diets. If you look at human teeth anatomy, we are evolved to be omnivores.

I was hoping that microfossils would help answer this problem but have not heard anything that significant yet. A few years ago the science of studying ancient teeth for the types of scratches and microfossiles looked promising. As one chews their food they leave scratches in their teeth that are like a footprint of prehistoric diets.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on March 1st, 2018, 4:04 am 

I like this bloke's view of diet.



Q: Doctor, I've heard that cardiovascular exercise
can prolong life. Is this true?
A: Your heart is only good for so many beats, and
that's it... don't waste them on exercise. Everything
wears out eventually. Speeding up your heart
will not make you live longer; that's like saying you
can extend the life of your car by driving it
faster. Want to live longer? Take a nap.

Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits
and vegetables?
A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What
does a cow eat? Hay and corn. And what are these?
Vegetables. So a steak is nothing more than an
efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your
system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef is also a
good source of field grass (green leafy
vegetable). And a pork chop can give you 100% of
your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.

Q: Should I reduce my alcohol intake?
A: No, not at all. Wine is made from fruit.
Brandy is distilled wine, that means they take the
water out of the fruity bit so you get even more of
the goodness that way. Beer is also made out of
grain. Bottoms up!

Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?
A: Well, if you have a body and you have fat, your
ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, your
ratio is two to one, etc.

Q: What are some of the advantages of participating
in a regular exercise program?
A: Can't think of a single one, sorry. My
philosophy is: No Pain...Good!

Q: Aren't fried foods bad for you?
A: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING!!! ..... Foods are
fried these days in vegetable oil. In fact,
they're permeated in it. How could getting more
vegetables be bad for you?

Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a
little soft around the middle?
A: Definitely not! When you exercise a muscle,
it gets bigger. You should only be doing sit-ups
if you want a bigger stomach.

Q: Is chocolate bad for me?
A: Are you crazy? HELLO Cocoa beans !
Another vegetable!!! It's the best feel-good
food around!

Q: Is swimming good for your figure?
A: If swimming is good for your figure,
explain whales to me.

Q: Is getting in-shape important for my
lifestyle?
A: Hey! 'Round' is a shape!

Well, I hope this has cleared up any
misconceptions you may have had about food
and diets.

And remember:
'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with
the intention of arriving safely in an
attractive and well preserved body, but rather
to skid in sideways - Chardonnay in one hand -
chocolate in the other - body thoroughly used
up, totally worn out and screaming 'WOO HOO,
What a Ride'



AND.....

For those of you who watch what you eat, here's the
final word on nutrition and health. It's a relief to know
the truth after all those conflicting nutritional studies.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat
and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat
and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

3. The Chinese drink very little red wine
and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

4. The Italians drink a lot of red wine
and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of
sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than
Americans.

CONCLUSION

Eat and drink what you like.
Speaking English is apparently what kills you.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Braininvat on March 1st, 2018, 11:10 am 

Tres amusant, monsieur doogle!
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby zetreque on March 1st, 2018, 11:41 am 

Maybe it's what I've experienced and all that I know about the health state of the world thanks to bad science and unethical companies but I don't find that joke all that funny. It's a struggle for people with health problems to find good advice and good science. I also just finished 2 more books this week on health.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby Braininvat on March 1st, 2018, 12:30 pm 

It's a struggle for people with health problems to find good advice and good science.
- Zet.

I took your point to also be the point of Doogle's joke. Many causal connections between diet and habits and health are pretty counterintuitive. I thought his joke a clever way to say that.
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Re: Humans and our Ancestors diet (ketones PLUS more)

Postby doogles on March 2nd, 2018, 6:07 am 

That's correct Braininvat, but you've expressed it much more succinctly than I could.

There is so much 'noise' associated popular and other literature on 'diets' and health foods that it's hard to home in and focus on what is genuine and what is BS.

The Australian CSIRO has produced an evidence-based book on weight loss and health that is reputedly receiving widespread support. It's library details are available on https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/160164546 ... BD48216899 .
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