Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Theology, Religious Studies, religion, god, faith and other topics of a spiritual nature.

Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby -1- on January 5th, 2019, 8:50 am 

In some religious doctrines the soul is given to man, but it is a property of the god of that religion.

So... I am given a soul... who am I? Who is this soulless entity? My body? But my body has been given to me by the same alleged god.

Who am I then? Not a body, not a soul... these are properties (owned things) of god. He gave them to me, one day he will take them away. I am sure of that. Who is then the ME that these things are given or lent to?
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby -1- on January 5th, 2019, 8:54 am 

Of course you realize that a body that is not mine, a mind and soul that is not mine, because I don't exist, can't be accounted for any sin, as all that is ME is a property (owned thing) of god. There is no independently operating unit, only borrowed body with a borrowed soul that is puppet of god.

And if all these things can't be accounted for any sin, then of course god can't be accounted for any sin.

Sinners don't exist. And therefore sin does not exist. And so does not virtue, by the same implication.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on February 1st, 2019, 6:27 pm 

Soul, like "mind" or "life" is often spoken of in the third person, you might say "my being", as if it is something other than you while it is in fact the essence of you.

Many Christians and religion adherents of other faiths follow their doctrines and creeds without much thought and self reflection, they cannot discern between body and soul much less soul and Spirit.

The SOUL, is you, it is Identity, it is that "witness" that has the capacity to see itself, know itself. In this "knowing oneself" there is a sensation of duality, what I call a mirror, but the one who looks, and that which he perceives (the self), are one and the same.

In this we share the IMAGE of God, God is the true I AM, an infinity beyond all that is created, from His perspective we are like shadows, possibilities, but we do not share the same REALITY as He does. He is One, and knows Himself as the whole of reality, the whole of existence.

The universe is created within a protective egg as it were, time, space and subsequent dimensions allow for the multiplicity we see and experience. If this reality were to come fully into the light of God's presence and Being it would all burn away, become nothing, for in truth it is nothing even now. This is what is behind the statement, "no man can see God and live", or "our God is a consuming fire".

We tend to think of God within our created framework, as if He is simply the MOST powerful, the MOST anything, but least, more, most, all these terms are relegated to our reality of one thing can be compared against another. God is something totally OTHER THAN.

So while He experiences true being, inside of the dimensions of this universe we experience temporal being, a multiplicity of "I am"s. Part of the IMAGE we share though, is the responsibility for our own being even as He is responsibly for His. The fact He created us does not make Him responsible for our acts anymore than a parent is responsible for the thoughts of their child. As a parent, and for a time, I can set boundaries and seek to infuse ideas into my child, but they must always think their own thoughts just as they possess their own "I am" within them.

That covers "transgressions, sin", but for those who approach the scriptures with a mind that considers Being, having understood they are not their bodies, Sin takes on a higher reality. Sin, as it refers to Being, denotes that which "misses the marks", it is the fact that we are "created" and thus do not possess the Infinite Being which is God. We are temporal, under the wrath, slated for destruction as is all "things" created. The soul is not immortal, despite the opinions of many theologians, by the very fact it is created. In the dimension of time, creation and destruction, beginning and end, appear separate, but from the Infinite standpoint they are simultaneous.

Christians and many of other faiths, due to their bodily or carnal way of thinking, interprets scripture as if immortality is a given, and God merely comes to punish the wicked. They ASSUME the soul and their existence is on par with an Infinite reality, not having understood the Oneness of God. Consider Adam was in context, a body formed from the dust, and a "breath/soul" breathed into that body in which he became a living soul, "living referring to our present state in a body. Immortality was given as a "possibility" seen as the tree of life, no a given. And with the fruit of the tree of knowledge Adam lost access to the tree of life,

The mystery of Christianity is that God sends a portion of His own Being, His seed, in the form and identity of Christ, and that seed, upon being poured out is able to merge with the created souls of this creation, thus making us one in Christ, receiving eternal life and being, and thus being able at the end of the age to be "lifted up/resurrected" into the presence and oneness of God.

Just as we are souls, so are we sin, and being sinners, created from the darkness, created from the nothingness, so do we sin/transgress/error/and manifest/act wickedly/twisted
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 19th, 2019, 12:59 pm 

The soul of human is not a part of God's essence because considering part for God is wrong exactly, but the soul of man is an independent creature that can choose and decide by itself even opposite to God's orders! Also man is a discoverer and creative creature based on his intellect that is relative to his soul. So you should not think God compels you to choose or do something. God has created man so to choose and decide based on his own intellect, will and contradistinction, independent of God's interference.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 24th, 2019, 3:14 pm 

Mans » March 19th, 2019, 11:59 am

The soul of human is not a part of God's essence because considering part for God is wrong exactly,


This would be in line with the bible although most Christians do not understand this as they think of the soul as immortal. In Genesis when God breathed into Adam's nostrils, there is a predicate involved, it does not say "God breathed and Adam became". Rather it says "God breathed the [breath of life] and Adam became a [living breath], which I understand as an embodied soul. Souls were created prior to this event on what is called the sixth day where all of mankind is created and they are created from the void just like the rest of the universe.

but the soul of man is an independent creature that can choose and decide by itself even opposite to God's orders! Also man is a discoverer and creative creature based on his intellect that is relative to his soul. So you should not think God compels you to choose or do something. God has created man so to choose and decide based on his own intellect, will and contradistinction, independent of God's interference.


Although it can be said man has individual choice, unfortunately his choice always tends to lead him away from God. The idea that man can effectively worship God or find acceptance with God so as to one enter into His presence is what is known as "works".

Many men think they worship God or are acceptable at some level but this is often a self deception as they compartmentalize their lives. They think "I used to be bad" or look to some kind of balance as if they might tilt the scale in their favor. BUT, God exists as timeless, He see the whole of one's life, the whole of one's thoughts, simultaneously. There is no past wherein He does not perceive it as the present, so we delude ourselves thinking we can hide our shortness in the darkness of the past.

God also, by His very nature, cannot endure anything that is not of the same purity as Himself, that which is created exists forever apart from Him. We often make the mistake of think God exists as we do, after all we say God exists, and so do I, this assumes a similar state of being.

God exists far above the way we do, He exists in His oneness, and there is nothing else that exists to Him as His Being fills the whole of His reality. Creation, or this universe, is a sea of potentiality, a womb whereby we might exist with a temporal state flux. Nothing created can past into the Infinitude of God without losing its form and identity as God is Infinitely Himself for God is ONE.

But God has provided a way for our individuality, identity, soul, to cross that gulf, and enter into the Oneness of His existence, but it is not by personal choice, or the human will. After all, the whole purpose of this Creation is to birth children for God.

That process is mirrored in the birth of every child since Adam, basically God breathes a Seed of His own Being, His own divine nature, into this womb or Creation, that Seed then is disseminated to become the very life and soul of those whom God has chosen, His Spirit taking up residence in our own Being. Those who are chosen now become one as they share in that one source of life, and they will, when this Creation comes to an end, be lifted out from this form of existence to experience His existence and Oneness as they are now, both one and different, God having become their very source of life.

This is a mystery, apparently even from most Christians as their doctrines often don't fully acknowledge this fact. I presume they wish to credit themselves for their superior choice over other men, as do all those who think themselves capable of climbing this tower of Babel, stretching up to the Heavens. But as God states in the scriptures, "Neither by will nor might but by my Spirit says the Lord"

At least this is how I understand the Bible, and I also see shadows of this same design in most of the world's religious scriptures, though few seem to notice such parallels, as Cain slew his brother, so those who are always seeking superiority over others tend to stand on their own holy doorstep, or even secular doorstep as the case may be.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 24th, 2019, 6:10 pm 

However the soul of man is earthy, but is affected by God's light ( I call it light but has another definition) . That is why human never is stopped in a point and by a property.

Animals' souls are not so and their souls have a specified and limited capacity. A lion is satisfied by a limited area, a few lionesses and enough prays. When this condition is prepared, it will never wish more. It never wishes to be the king of all lions in the world! Because such the motivation is not embedded into its soul.

But human is not so. He never becomes full by anything. If even God gives the government and all wealth and power of the world to a human, he will never become satisfied and he finally will ask:" Is there anymore"?!

And If God gives all knowledge of all scientists of the history to a human to stop studying and researching, he will never stop and asks:" Is there anymore" ?!

The soul of human is earthy but as it is affected by soul (features) of God has a high capacity and desire more than his natural requirements.

In fact the the highest wish of man is God himself, but sadly he doesn't know and supposes he wishes a high rank, power, wealth and scholarship in the world. The soul of human gets calmness and rest just by reaching to God. When a human reaches God all his wishes for power, wealth and science will disappear, because God himself is the source of these all.

Sadly the majority of humans go wrong because of lacking of knowledge about this fact. They suppose the perfection that they are looking for, is power, wealth and science itself. They forget the source or at least are not aware about it.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 24th, 2019, 8:56 pm 

Mans » March 24th, 2019, 5:10 pm

In fact the the highest wish of man is God himself, but sadly he doesn't know and supposes he wishes a high rank, power, wealth and scholarship in the world. The soul of human gets calmness and rest just by reaching to God. When a human reaches God all his wishes for power, wealth and science will disappear, because God himself is the source of these all.


That's all great, and then you die, and you are no more.

You have not addressed the Oneness of God, I can only assume your idea of God is one that equates with your own state of existence.

The statement "There is one God" is not that same as "God is one". Within the Creation there is a heavenly sphere, and an earthly one, and so we are soul and body, but God is not a part of this Creation, He does not exist in the same way as "things" do, even humans.

In order to truly worship God, one has to understand WHAT God is, to call God infinite is not to say He exists forever as if one is speaking of a timeline, God exists in a timeless state, which is nearly inconceivable to our consciousness as our consciousness is dependent upon the dimension of time.

God's infinite qualities means He alone exists and nothing else. There is no "space" beside Him wherein any thing else can exist. Even if you try to say "I am here and God is everywhere", He is still no you, therefore you are still saying "I am here and God is there" because you do not share the same space of Being.

Thus the word "transcendent" is used, because God and His very existence transcends our own, and any created thing, earthly or heavenly for that matter.

And idea of God that does not reflect the Infinite nature of His Being can only be a mental construct where God is simply one more "thing", even if you think that "thing" to be the most powerful Being (thing). If you give form to God, if you limit the full and infinite nature of His Being, then you are describing an idol, not the Creator. One's concept of God having not matured above the concept of a creature where one might attach superlatives like "more" or "most", God is not more or most anything, He is the One thing, Infinite Being, and it is this chasm that must be crossed, one made of being, not desires.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 25th, 2019, 7:24 am 

Brent696 » March 24th, 2019, 7:56 pm wrote:
Mans » March 24th, 2019, 5:10 pm

In fact the the highest wish of man is God himself, but sadly he doesn't know and supposes he wishes a high rank, power, wealth and scholarship in the world. The soul of human gets calmness and rest just by reaching to God. When a human reaches God all his wishes for power, wealth and science will disappear, because God himself is the source of these all.



In order to truly worship God, one has to understand WHAT God is, to call God infinite is not to say He exists forever as if one is speaking of a timeline, God exists in a timeless state, which is nearly inconceivable to our consciousness as our consciousness is dependent upon the dimension of time.


If we question:" WHAT is God" it can be a wrong question about him and this question is unanswerable, because God is rather than the materials and factors that human has recognized in this world. He is not similar to anything that we know. Researching about this issue that WHAT is God (what his essence is) is in vain and will have not any result except misleading or insanity. Not only usual people like us can't recognize the essence of God, but also prophets and angels are unable to find out this great and covered mystery.


So how we pose a question about God and how we can know him?!


We should ask: " WHO is God?"


When you meet an unknown newcomer you ask him:" Who are you?" not " what are you"?!


"Who are you" is a question about the character and profile of the newcomer; but "what are you" is a question does mean " what you have been made from" or " what is your material"?!


We can't recognize the essence of God or relative things, but we can recognize his ability and character via his creations, and also his words.

For example, you haven't seen and met me before, but now you can recognize the level of my knowledge and my character partially. If you even met me before in a place and I didn't talk at all you couldn't recognize my art, knowledge or other characteristic things by looking and visual investigation.

Besides, the quality of God is very higher than the capacity of beings' recognition and realization, though it is not necessary they know.

So knowing God (his ability, knowledge, art, mercy, violence, greatness, awe, honesty, kingdom, beauty and so on) is possible from his creations and also his words and manner of talking, while thinking about his essence and quality is a wrong way that never end to any conclusion.

Imam Ali advised man:" the quality of God is a great ocean, never step in, and if not, you will drown forever."
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 25th, 2019, 12:25 pm 

Mans » March 25th, 2019, 6:24 am

"Who are you" is a question about the character and profile of the newcomer; but "what are you" is a question does mean " what you have been made from" or " what is your material"?!


We can't recognize the essence of God or relative things, but we can recognize his ability and character via his creations, and also his words.


Imam `Ali bin Abi Talib speaking on the nature and being of God, not "who" as if he is merely addressing character, but "what" as in the nature of God's Being. Of course Imam Ali instructs us not to ask anyone (other Muslims) but him, and I can see why as the religious mind is so hung up on praise that it neglects knowledge even as you have rejected science, therefore I will be sure not to eat anything you cook since apparently you cannot tell a good mushroom from a bad one.

(Imam Ali) O Assembly of Jews , listen to me. Do not be concerned about asking anyone but me in this affair.

My Lord – Mighty and Majestic – He is the First, without beginning

He is neither intermingled with His Creation

Nor is He in a state in between that

He is not a ghost or spirit that is remote

He is not remote where He does not know His Creation

He did not appear at some point where it could be said He is created

No, Majestic is He that He be decribed in this way when He has given all things their shape

He has always been and does not change through time

He was – when there was no thing – without time or place

And He is now as He ever was!

He is not distracted by different affairs

How can He be decribed as are ghosts and how can He be truly praised by people?

How can this be when He is not within things so as to be called separate?

He is without likeness and how yet He is closer to you than your jugular vein!

He is as far as can be from any likeness with the creation

The slightest thing from His Creation is not hidden from Him

Whether it is the slightest statement off the tongue, the hidden action or the single footstep

In the great shadows of the night, the shining of the moon, the brightness of the sun, nothing is hidden from Him when He is the source of light for all things.

He surrounds all in His Creation, whether it is the sudden onset of night or the sudden brightness of the day without His being encompassed by the creation.

He knows about every place and all of what is and will be

And also the end of all things that are to come

Time and ending is something that has been given to the creation.

Limits are only attributed to created things and not Him.

He did not create the things from the foundations of eternity where they always existed

Nor did He create from existing things already present.

No! Rather He created what He made and established its’ creation from nothing.

He gave shape and good form to everything.

He is One and Unique in His Oneness

There is nothing the creation can do that can harm Him and there is no way the creation can benefit Him

He is quick to answer the supplications of those that call upon Him

Yes, indeed the angels in the skies and earths obey Him.

His knowledge of all that has died or ceased is just as full as His knowledge of all things living and what is in the highest skies.

The same holds true for His knowledge in every thing and all the voices and languages do not confuse or baffle Him.

He hears all the different voices and languages without limbs or organs

Indeed He is the Designer and the All Seeing, The Knower of all affairs, All Living, Self Sufficient

Glorified be He, He spoke to Musa (Moses) directly without the need of limbs and instruments, lips or throat.

Glorified and Exalted is He from having a similarity like the creations.

Whoever claims that Our God has boundaries, then He does not know the Creator that is worshipped

The same is said of the one who says that the places encompass Him

This claim means that He is mingled with and contained by the creation!

No, He surrounds and encompasses every place.

The one that claims He is surrounded by His Creation when he describes the Most Merciful while He has no revelation or text to prove this, I have this question for him:

Describe for me (angel) Jibril, Mika’il, Israfil! Go ahead! I defy you to do so!

Are you then unable to describe what is a creation like you?

Are you unable to describe just a creation when you describe the Creator with form and organs, this same One who is neither overtaken by sleep nor slumber!

This is the same One who owns all that is in the skies and the earths, what is between them! He is the Lord of the Glorious Throne!


And since you have neglected the knowledge and science of "what" God is, (should He exists-for the Atheistic readers) I cannot see you possessing any understanding of "what" the soul is.

You see Mans, men can lie, they can appear to be one thing in manifestation while hiding their true nature and intent. With God this is not so, in order to know "who" God is, you must first know "what" God is for there is no difference between the two. This is why when Imam Ali is describing the nature of God's Being, such descriptions reflectively also describe His character. Knowing God by a supposed personality (who) is to be forever misled and is the difference between a religious man who is concerned about only himself, despite his worship, and the spiritual man who seeks the knowledge of God whereby his worship elevates God rather than his own ego as he thinks of himself as a worshiper.

Science is the light of the material world, knowledge of God's nature is the light of the spiritual world.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 25th, 2019, 3:59 pm 

Imam Ali doesn't speak about the quality of God; he speaks about the relation of God with the universe, things and beings.

In fact, he explains, who is God, not, what is God.

He denies or removes every description that limits God or makes him similar to his creatures.

He also has a wonderful description about God relating to the objects and beings in the world that I think it is the best definition about God to his creatures, without pointing to quality of God's essence that is the highest secret mystery and human is warned to go close to, to find out the undetectable mystery:

God is with everything, not to be that thing, and is rather than everything not to be separate from it.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 25th, 2019, 5:25 pm 

Mans » March 25th, 2019, 2:59 pm

Imam Ali doesn't speak about the quality of God; he speaks about the relation of God with the universe, things and beings.

In fact, he explains, who is God, not, what is God.


You are simply making a logical fallacy of distinctions without a difference.

You say God is the creator, this is "what" He is, as much as "who" He is.

You say Allah is the creator, in doing so you are saying "what" Allah is as much as "who" he is.

https://www.thoughtco.com/allah-god-in-islam-2004296

God's Nature
In the Quran, we read that Allah is Compassionate and Merciful. He is Kind, Loving and Wise. He is the Creator, the Sustainer, the Healer. He is the One who Guides, the One who Protects, the One Who Forgives. There are traditionally 99 names, or attributes, that Muslims use to describe Allah's nature.


You say that God is absolute, but how can you know that since you continue with this all encompassing negation that God's essence is a mystery. Of course it is a mystery, it is unlike any "thing" which exists within the Creation, and so I have described such differences just as Imam Ali has.

And what does it mean to say "God is absolute", absolutely WHAT. "Absolute" means total, if God is absolute, then you and I don't really exist, not in His totality. So you want to quote this as a beautiful description:

God is with everything, not to be that thing, and is rather than everything not to be separate from it.


"Mystification" is a state of mind that flutters at contradictory statements, here in america there are many religious zealots and New Age groupies who swoon at such statement from false Gurus, who themselves have become adept at making such contradictory proclamations. "Mystification" happens when a person pretends to understand what he does not, he just experiences a little high, he is intoxicated by it, but he does not understand what the true nature of the contradiction is.

Someone questions a Christian about the so called Trinity, after a while, like you, he says "its just a mystery we will never fully understand". This reveals merely that he or she does not understand it, not that it is beyond comprehension. And honest person should reply "I do not understand" rather than hiding their ignorance behind "its a mystery".

Got a news flash for you, GOD WANTS TO BE KNOWN, that why He reveals Himself, that's why there are scriptures and prophets who act as witnesses. God's nature is a mystery for you, well good for you, but don't expect everyone to share in the same lack of information, not every seeker is as sincere as another, and God is not fooled by double mindedness.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 25th, 2019, 6:19 pm 

You seems more to an attacker than one who tries to participate in a philosophic or religious discussion.

You used offensive words versus me a few time. This makes me uneasy or even angry, because no one can tolerate improper words in a philosophic or religious discussion. You accuse me to misunderstanding, ignorance and such the impolitely words that come out from the mouth of a low and illogical person.

If you are actually an educated and knowledgeable person stop this manner of attacking talking and go back to a gentlemanly discussion; if not, I will stop paying attention to your comments.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 25th, 2019, 6:46 pm 

Mans » March 25th, 2019, 5:19 pm.


Yes I think we are done,
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 25th, 2019, 7:44 pm 

Hi Brent

We can continue our discussion, but please avoid emotion and humiliation :)
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 26th, 2019, 1:19 pm 

Mans » March 25th, 2019, 6:44 pm wrote:Hi Brent

We can continue our discussion, but please avoid emotion and humiliation :)


So you want to continue, and this discussion is about the nature of the soul, and the nature of God as His nature might differ from that which is created.

So lets establish some background, my knowledge base consists of having read and studied the Jewish scriptures, the New Testament, A vast amount of the Vedic literature of Hinduism, including leaving within a Hindu Temple community for 2 years, a great deal on Buddhism, the teaching of many Gurus from Sat Mat all the way around to Zoroastrian literature. I spent 15 years embedded in the Holistic health community which provided a broad exposure to New Age writings, (most of which are bastardized versions of Hinduism or Buddhism), I have also study the Mystic side of such faiths from Kabbalah to Sufism, reading many of the works of those who are called masters. Even studying a bit of theosophy that would twist most brains in knots.

Of course that is all from and academic point of view, study alone does not necessitate a revelation about the nature of God, much less the soul, most religious people still do not fully grasp that they are essentially a soul first, and that the identity which they adopt as they are in association with their physical existence is external to their inner Being, in short, they think of themselves as bodies that possess a soul rather than a soul that is in possession of a body.

Ultimately I would conclude, in order to understand the deeper things of God, these truths God would have to be revealed to us, the deciding factors in such a journey being first, honesty, especially as regards motive, to know God rather than to simply receive something (materially) from Him. And secondly, if one desires to understand God and His Being, to penetrate that which is considered a mystery for the vast majority of human kind, they must surrender their claim to their own Being, their "pride of life" as a Biblical writer once referred to it. To understand how God exists, we cannot hold to our own existence with the same level of certainty, for lack of a better word as we do God's.

Now this is not a contest, all of the above does not prove me smarter, it is not meant to belittle or intimidate nor humiliate you. My CONCERN is, that you have been raised in a Muslim country, where very little if any other religious texts have been circulated, even so perhaps you have been discouraged from reading any, and so your basic knowledge base comes from Islam and the teachings generally of the Imams. (We should note that the writing of one religion's teacher, pastor, imam, rabbi, etc... describing what another religion's beliefs are, is always highly biased, I hear Christians pastors all the time speaking on what Buddhists or Hindus believe as they make contrasts, and never having honestly studied the other faiths with an open mind, only expose their ignorance of what the other faith believes)

As for conversation, I want to hear YOUR THOUGHTS, how your logic applies, and so it is that I tend to challenge. For example, you quoted Imam Ali

""God is with everything, not to be that thing, and is rather than everything not to be separate from it."

This statement, on the surface, expressed a contradiction. At least it appears that way as the English translation of "is rather than everything" is not very apt for our language. But lets say Ali is trying to reveal something about God, how He moves or interacts in the would, how He exists within our world Setting "who" or "what" aside, what is the speaker trying to tell us about the nature of God.

(1st phrase:God is with everything) That God is aware of everything? That seems obvious to say.

(2nd phrase:not to be that thing) That God is not the things He is aware of? That seems obvious too, but that is no different than us since I am not the keyboard in front of me.

(3rd and final phrase:and is rather than everything not to be separate from it) Now this may be the translation, but this only repeats the first two phrases in reverse.

Now generally, in a mystical statement of sorts, a contradiction is set forth, phrase 1 and 2, and then a qualifier, a hint is given in the 3rd phrase how to understand the contradiction. So if I was to guess, or more likely discern what I believe the writer is getting at, it would be: Although God is aware of all things in Creation, He is wholly unlike any of those "things" of which He is aware. That His existence is APART, different than, that which He has created. In a way, He is here, and yet He is not here. I see Ali clearly addressing the essence of God, even as he hope to expose it's mysterious nature.

Of course this is exactly what I have been speaking about since we began our discussion, though I am not bound to a single terminology, but I have been speaking about how God's nature as it, He, transcends that of His Creatures and creation. So how do you interpret this statement????
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 26th, 2019, 7:51 pm 

The quote has a fine interpretation and meaning. " God is with everything, not to be that thing, and is rather than everything not to be separate from it" doesn't mean awareness of God.

Imam here points to this fact that objects in the world are not some independent things and also God is rather than the objects, while their existence is relative to existence of God. In the other word, nothing exist without God.

I bring an example by myself. A light is emitted by a source and from a source. The existence of the light is connected to the source and is not an independent phenomena. We see the sun (by all its scientific functions). It is not an independent and free thing that emit light by itself. It is like the same light that I exampled. It and all other things in the world are connected to a source (source not as a center) that has created them and ordered them to do a task.

Someone is beyond this object but he is not the sun itself. The energy, light and heat of the sun comes from him but no one of these factors are the same operator and also are not parts of him.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 26th, 2019, 11:14 pm 

Mans » March 26th, 2019, 6:51 pm

The quote has a fine interpretation and meaning. " God is with everything, not to be that thing, and is rather than everything not to be separate from it" doesn't mean awareness of God.

Imam here points to this fact that objects in the world are not some independent things and also God is rather than the objects, while their existence is relative to existence of God. In the other word, nothing exist without God.


You really need to find another translation of this saying, "is rather" does not work in English, not in this context. "is rather" is normally only used as it follows a personal pronoun such as "he" or "she". The way it appears in this sentence makes its understanding to be "other than". As if to say "God is close to everything, yet he is not that thing, but he is something other than that thing, though he is not separate from it" Even the word "with" does not seem proper in this context, in English I can be "with" a friend, but standing in the forest I am not "with" a tree, standing in the kitchen I am not "with" my toaster, so "with a thing" simply does not work in English.

Now, as for your definition, "nothing exists without God", does not seem to be that deep of a statement to qualify as some beautiful adage, maybe the beauty in the some poetry as it is expressed in the original language but this seems very elementary to the fact that God is a Creator, so of course nothing could exist with him. So lets look at your example.

I bring an example by myself. A light is emitted by a source and from a source. The existence of the light is connected to the source and is not an independent phenomena. We see the sun (by all its scientific functions). It is not an independent and free thing that emit light by itself. It is like the same light that I exampled. It and all other things in the world are connected to a source (source not as a center) that has created them and ordered them to do a task.

Someone is beyond this object but he is not the sun itself. The energy, light and heat of the sun comes from him but no one of these factors are the same operator and also are not parts of him.


Now this is a problem, this definition seems to be skating the surface of Pantheism. Now don't feel insulted by that comparison, it is just that there is a strong effort to equate God with His Creation and every aspect of it. I agree that God created the universe, and ultimately He is behind every aspect of its functioning and design, but this is not some great mystery, nor deep insight, this idea is basic to nearly, if not all major religions.

The insight would be, how God Himself, exists as something "other than" the things He created, that He Himself is not a "thing" at all as the way we define every "thing" else that we see existing.

Listen, I tried googling this saying the way you have it written, I cannot find it, at least not in this particular translation. Furthermore I don't like it when people quote, as in verses, without knowing the context around it, although quote can often be passed independent.

So do me a favor, tell me where this quote comes from, what body of material it was taken from etc.. so I can do my own research and see what meaning others might apply to it. And I do know that Islam can be very particular in how much latitude they use in translating, I have seen this in many versions of the Koran, yet still there seem to be scholars who seek to translate with the goal of fitting into the target language better. There is probably not much you need to respond to this post other than providing me with some references, right now it reads more like a google translation.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 27th, 2019, 8:50 am 

You really need to find another translation of this saying, "is rather" does not work in English, not in this context. "is rather" is normally only used as it follows a personal pronoun such as "he" or "she". The way it appears in this sentence makes its understanding to be "other than". As if to say "God is close to everything, yet he is not that thing, but he is something other than that thing, though he is not separate from it" Even the word "with" does not seem proper in this context, in English I can be "with" a friend, but standing in the forest I am not "with" a tree, standing in the kitchen I am not "with" my toaster, so "with a thing" simply does not work in English.

Now, as for your definition, "nothing exists without God", does not seem to be that deep of a statement to qualify as some beautiful adage, maybe the beauty in the some poetry as it is expressed in the original language but this seems very elementary to the fact that God is a Creator, so of course nothing could exist with him. So lets look at your example.
I bring an example by myself. A light is emitted by a source and from a source. The existence of the light is connected to the source and is not an independent phenomena. We see the sun (by all its scientific functions). It is not an independent and free thing that emit light by itself. It is like the same light that I exampled. It and all other things in the world are connected to a source (source not as a center) that has created them and ordered them to do a task.

Someone is beyond this object but he is not the sun itself. The energy, light and heat of the sun comes from him but no one of these factors are the same operator and also are not parts of him.


First of all, thank you very much for your correction and modifying my own translation.

I have to say, there are a few problems about translating the Islamic quotes from Arabic that is the chosen origin language of Islam into other languages , among Persian that is my language:

1- My English is not perfect.

2-Islamic words have a very fine and accurate meaning and content and during translation those meaning are lost more or less.

3- Translating the Islamic quotes into English gets worse, because this language is insufficient for translating the fine mysterious spiritual quotes that are the in Islamic expressions ( heavenly words and philosophy).

Although English language is sufficient in the usual literature and philosophy and also is the highest language in the technical and technological matters, nonetheless it is insufficient for translating the fine and accurate super spiritual sciences of Islam (I hope Sunni Muslims know Imams as well). So the synonymous words in English for this purpose is scant.


Now this is a problem, this definition seems to be skating the surface of Pantheism. Now don't feel insulted by that comparison, it is just that there is a strong effort to equate God with His Creation and every aspect of it. I agree that God created the universe, and ultimately He is behind every aspect of its functioning and design, but this is not some great mystery, nor deep insight, this idea is basic to nearly, if not all major religions.

The insight would be, how God Himself, exists as something "other than" the things He created, that He Himself is not a "thing" at all as the way we define every "thing" else that we see existing.

Listen, I tried googling this saying the way you have it written, I cannot find it, at least not in this particular translation. Furthermore I don't like it when people quote, as in verses, without knowing the context around it, although quote can often be passed independent.

So do me a favor, tell me where this quote comes from, what body of material it was taken from etc.. so I can do my own research and see what meaning others might apply to it. And I do know that Islam can be very particular in how much latitude they use in translating, I have seen this in many versions of the Koran, yet still there seem to be scholars who seek to translate with the goal of fitting into the target language better. There is probably not much you need to respond to this post other than providing me with some references, right now it reads more like a google translation.


Somebody asked Imam Ali:" Can we call God something?" The Imam responded:" Yes, if you don't attach him limitation and similarity."


There is book that is the collection of Imam Ali's sermons, letters (to various persons) words and responds that is called Nahjul-Balagha (The way of growth). It is collected by some Islamic Alems (professors) in the past centuries. I read the quote in the book years ago.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 27th, 2019, 1:35 pm 

Mans » March 27th, 2019, 7:50 am

Somebody asked Imam Ali:" Can we call God something?" The Imam responded:" Yes, if you don't attach him limitation and similarity."


There is book that is the collection of Imam Ali's sermons, letters (to various persons) words and responds that is called Nahjul-Balagha (The way of growth). It is collected by some Islamic Alems (professors) in the past centuries. I read the quote in the book years ago.


OK, I think we got this now,

https://www.al-islam.org/what-true-succ ... 1-know-god

Oneness and Uniqueness of God


The foremost (duty) in religion is the acknowledgment of God; the perfection of acknowledging Him is to bear witness to Him; the perfection of bearing witness to Him is to believe in His Oneness; the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him as pure; and the perfection of regarding Him as pure is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed, and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.

Thus, whoever attempts a description of God creates His like; and whoever creates His like regards Him as two; and whoever regards Him as two recognizes parts for Him; and whoever recognizes parts for Him mistook Him; and whoever mistook Him faulted Him; and whoever faulted Him admitted limitations for Him; and whoever admitted limitations for Him enumerated Him (i.e., denied His oneness and uniqueness).

Whoever said, “In what is He?” held that He is confined; and whoever said, “On what is He?” held He is not on something else. He is a being, but not through the phenomenon of coming into existence. He exists, but not by coming out of nonexistence. He is near to everything, but not in physical proximity. He is distinct from everything, but not separated (by distance). He acts, but without the need of movement or need of instruments. He is One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or none whose company He may miss.
(Sermon 1)

I stand witness that there is no god but God, the One. No one is like Him. (It is) a testimony that has been tested in its frankness and its essence is our belief. We shall cling to it as long as we remain (alive), shall store it, facing the tribulations that overtake us, because it is the firm determination of belief, the first step towards good actions and Divine pleasure. It is the means to keep Satan away.
(Sermon 2)

He who assigns to Him (different) states does not believe in His Oneness; or he who likens Him (to any of His creation) has not grasped His reality. He who pictures Him in his imagination has meant (someone) other than God. He works but not with the help of tools. He assigns measures but not with the need of deliberation. He is rich but not through acquisition (of wealth).
(Sermon 185)

He is One, but not in a numerical sense. He is everlasting, without a limit. He exists, but without support. He is big, but not in a physical sense. He is big in position and great in authority.
(Sermon 184)


The blue color denotes it is not the "what" that is in question but the "IN what and ON what" as they are confining, but the very title of the section, "Oneness and Uniqueness of God" without a doubt, speaks to the nature of God and HOW He exists.

The RED letters I presume is where you have taken your quote from. And I can see depth in his words, but rather than strangle his words trying to bear such truth out, I prefer to just use my own, in modern vernacular, and perhaps you will see the parallels. Assuming you might have some aptitude in math, I will start with a math analogy.

The analogy begins as we define and divide the Infinite from the finite. We live in a finite universe, it is composed of parts, and we can count those parts, 1, 2, 3, etc... and we see "reality" in each part, each "thing", but within this sphere of existence there is no infinity. Mathematicians can use "potential" infinities such as there is potentially and theoretically an infinity of odd numbers, but they can never be known, the dimension of time would force us the be counting forever and never reaching the end, never attaining that "completeness" of knowing them all.

A true infinity is by nature and definition "boundless", it has no limits, in space or time, no "thing" can exist outside or beside it, it stands alone. It is a 1, where no other numbers can exist. This is the boundless nature of God's Being, He is not merely 1 thing that exists, He is the only thing that exists, in this is His uniqueness.

In our sphere of existence God, the infinity, seems to be the potential, numbers dividing but nothing of wholeness ever being present. But in God's Infinite existence, we are the potential. In a loose analogy we might say we exist more like in a dream that God is having. In fact many cultures/religions have used this analogy of the dream.

So the Infinite, and the finite, cannot exist, as it were, in the same place and time. God is aware of everything here, He is "near" everything here in the universe, even as He is the one dreaming us into existence, so He is the source of everything, BUT He is not the same as that which He is dreaming, so the Imam says,

"He is near to everything, but not in physical proximity. He is distinct from everything, but not separated (by distance)."

Now another analogy, how God creates, most every religion expressing creation through the voice, God speaks, God shouts, chants, whatever. Since God, as infinite in Being, exists as everything and the only thing already, He cannot and does not divide Himself to create, so He turns to that which is Nothing. Sometimes this foundation for our existence is the void, formlessness, emptiness, the bottomless abyss, utter darkness, many ways it has been described but for simplicity I use the word "nothingness". So how does God create something from nothing, simply by using His voice, (remember "voice" is analogous).

He does it the same way we do when we speak, The great ocean of silence, when compressed by the force of our breath, brings forth sounds, finite structures which are given birth, sustained, and then dissolve back into the nothingness of silence. If you stand in a room with a bowl of water on the table, and you speak or sing, the water in the bowl will resonate with the vibrations of your voice, and those waves will translate into patterns upon the surface of the water. Likewise our whole universe has arisen from quantum waves, in an ocean of potentiality, patterns and ultimately "things" arise. So it is said, that God spoke the universe into existence, but He is not part of that which He creates. And more importantly when He ceases to speak, the water will lose such patterns and form and the nothingness will again swallow all "things". And one of these "things" is the soul, that identity that self reflects and says "I am", when it is in truth, merely a shadow of a pattern created upon the nothingness.

In the speaker/Creator, there is an infinity of Being, He is the Creator and the ONE true reality. That which is created, exists merely potentially and dependently. Each of the analogies I have given are drawn from the universe itself as, like the brush strokes of a painter, God's work is reflected, shadowed, within the Creation itself.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 28th, 2019, 8:56 pm 

Just now, I was reading a prayer for lengthening lifetime (these prayers reached us by Imams. Those are heavenly and are not man-made). I saw this expression in the payer:

" ...My God, your honest and confirmed Messenger said:" you said, what happens in something, I'm its doer like my action seizing the soul of my believer who dislikes dying and its difficulties... My God... and don't put the difficulties on me and not on whom I love them."
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 29th, 2019, 2:25 am 

Man's,

For someone who claims they want to engage in philosophical discussion you continue to proselytize. I can only assume you have no interest in exploring the nature of God or the soul as you retract into your emotional religious experiences.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 29th, 2019, 4:04 pm 

No. I don't want to turn you into another belief because there is not any benefit for me in this way. You and others with the similar opinions can remain on your belief.

I'm tired. I'm not interested to advise others anymore. At present, I just try to save myself and go out from the difficulties. What benefit will be for me, if you turns into a Muslim or remain Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, atheist and etc?

You can discuss without thinking to this subject that I'm trying to change your belief and way. I'm not in a mood to do this. I just want to discuss in English to go advance in this language. I also don't request you to be my friend but only expect a mutually respect in our conversations.

Nonetheless, I want offer you somethings relative to the topic that you haven't heard before.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby TheVat on March 29th, 2019, 6:20 pm 

Translating the Islamic quotes into English gets worse, because this language is insufficient for translating the fine mysterious spiritual quotes that are the in Islamic expressions ( heavenly words and philosophy).

Although English language is sufficient in the usual literature and philosophy and also is the highest language in the technical and technological matters, nonetheless it is insufficient for translating the fine and accurate super spiritual sciences of Islam (I hope Sunni Muslims know Imams as well). So the synonymous words in English for this purpose is scant....


Mans, given how insufficient English is, do you think it would be better for Christians to read their Bible in the original Aramaic, Hebrew, and Koine Greek? Just curious.

BTW, what do you mean by a "spiritual science?" Science and spirituality seem to be rather different ways of understanding reality.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Mans on March 30th, 2019, 9:59 am 

Arabic language is the most regular language in the world, with accurate grammar and rules and words meaning. God points to this issue in Koran, why he sent down Koran with Arabic language:


" had we made the Koran in a non Arabic (language) they would have said: 'if only its verses were distinguished!..."

And my translation:

"had we made the Koran in a non Arabic (language) they asked, why its verses are not on a regularity..."

So Arabic language has the aspect that other language such as Persian (my language) and English haven't the same. In this dimension (spiritual, theology and mystic aspect) western and eastern languages are poorer than Persian, because from 1398 years ago that Islam entered in Iran, and the majority of Iranian turned into Muslims, many Arabic words and Islamic culture and doctrines was added to the Persian language (of course the ordinary Iranians don't understand pure Arabic or Arabic people don't know Persian).

Usually, English people are very farther from these words and cultures than Persians, and that is why, they have less words for interpretation of Islamic contents.

The origin Bible was the older version of the Koran, though both were the scriptures of God.

Nowadays Bible are the collection of words that Christian follow it and no interpretation is done about these words. Of course some priest who sermon Christians try to speak about the words and fix them in the mind of the people but these speakings are overt and are not about mystic things of God, heaven and regular supernatural things.

In fact, interpretation of mystic things doesn't exist in Christianity and Christians are just ordered to love others and behave kindly (relation of man to man not relation of man to God).

Due to these reasons, there are many mystic Islamic words that you can't find a proper synonymous words for them in English.

****

What does mean science? Attaining Knowledge about what man doesn't know or discovering new rules, material and phenomenons.

When we attain a new reality about God or supernatural world it is called knowledge and science as well. Sadly you are not familiar to what I say, because you have not imposed to the high Islamic matters.

It is good you know, an Islamic Alem (professor) may study about 50 or 70 years!


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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby TheVat on March 30th, 2019, 10:45 am 

Good grief i wouldn't even know where to start with this smug and condescending garbage. Have fun, Brent.
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Re: Who owns your soul? If not you, then WHO are YOU?

Postby Brent696 on March 31st, 2019, 5:19 pm 

Mans » March 30th, 2019, 8:59 am

The origin Bible was the older version of the Koran, though both were the scriptures of God.


By "original bible" I suppose you are referring to Mohammed's teaching that the scriptures, at the time of Mohammed's life, have been thoroughly corrupted by the Jews, and that the bible of his time was filled with inaccuracies (errors). In this way Mohammed was free to make up his own commentaries on past events such as the Abrahamic blessing actually going to Ismael rather than Jacob. And all of this supposedly revealed by Gabriel.

I would also imagine that everything you know about any other religions does not come from reading such scriptures themselves but rather reading Islamic Apologetics about other's beliefs. So in short, all the information you have, is biased, and driven to maintain the power structure or superiority of the Islamic faith. If I remember correctly, Islam looks down on anyone reading other scriptures and ties such activity to a moral failing as if it is insulting to Allah.

Nowadays Bible are the collection of words that Christian follow it and no interpretation is done about these words. Of course some priest who sermon Christians try to speak about the words and fix them in the mind of the people but these speakings are overt and are not about mystic things of God, heaven and regular supernatural things.


I will agree that generally, human beings, Muslim, Christian, or otherwise, are shallow. But what you are saying is nonsense, there is a mystical tradition in Christianity just as there is in Judaism, and in fact I am what one would call a Christian mystic even as I have endeavored to explain to you the created soul, the infinite and unbounded nature of God's Being, and even how He creates the whole of the universe from nothing, but you have ignored all such spiritual knowledge as you fell backwards to offer up some poorly translated statements of Imams. In my view, Islam cheats in the sense that they simply apply "mystical" to the entirety of their scriptures and interpretations.

In fact, interpretation of mystic things doesn't exist in Christianity and Christians are just ordered to love others and behave kindly (relation of man to man not relation of man to God).


In Christianity there are many people who, satisfied by the simplest idea of faith, follow the basics, not that there is anything wrong with loving others and behaving kindly. And then there are those who search more deeply, who really want to know God at a deeper level, and so they engage in practices meant to bring insight, deeper knowledge of God, and one of those paths concerns an understanding of other forms of interpretation, symbolism, etc... But the question is, as a Muslim, are you really willing to look elsewhere for truth, to seek deeper insights, or will you be satisfied with the Islamic cheat that even basic of Islamic beliefs are mystical in nature.

Due to these reasons, there are many mystic Islamic words that you can't find a proper synonymous words for them in English.

What does mean science? Attaining Knowledge about what man doesn't know or discovering new rules, material and phenomenons.

When we attain a new reality about God or supernatural world it is called knowledge and science as well. Sadly you are not familiar to what I say, because you have not imposed to the high Islamic matters.

It is good you know, an Islamic Alem (professor) may study about 50 or 70 years!


Here are the facts, words are symbols, symbols express ideas, and ideas can and do communicate universally. We are communication, and can do so in depth about all kinds of subjects from math to medicine, chemical analysis, measurements, feelings, therapeutic causalities for psychological obstructions, but the idea that the words of the Koran, simply words taken from the vocabulary of the time, cannot be translated is ridiculous. Mohammed did not make up new words, it is simply Arabic. Hindus often hold to Sanskrit recitations, and Sanskrit is much older the Arabic, and more likely Spiritual as their religion is pretty much the only place it is used, and it is always sung.

Calling the Koran scientific, is another cheat, certainly there is knowledge there, even Mohammed could watch a plant grow, but I have seen some Muslims go to great lengths to stretch Koran verses into saying something they simply do not, hoping to try to tie them to some scientific discovery, as if to say, "see, Mohammed knew that". Thus self promoting Islam once again, in fact not too long ago on this forum in the science section someone tried it but everyone just looked at it and signed and the poster fell away. It is cheating the same why a psychic would cheat and say "oh! I knew that all along".

So let me summarize, you might be a nice guy Mans, but you live in a bubble, at least as far as religious/spiritual knowledge, perhaps you can discuss Islam, but not "religions", this is what I meant by Proselytizing, not as to convert me, but knowing nothing other that your own superiority. Having read so many scriptures of the world, I find, personally, Islam to be the most fragmented, it mode of functioning closer to a political system that is merely disguised as a religion, perhaps this is why the Disciples of Christ got along fairly well after Jesus left while in Islam, Mohammed's disciples began to kill each other, turning on members of their own families as each sought power. You say Islam came to Iran, yes it came, it is know as the Muslim conquest of Persia, hundreds of thousands probably died, maybe millions, maybe quite a few of your ancestors, assuming you are Persian, and converted from Zoroastrianism to Islam or die horribly. When it comes to true Spiritual knowledge, Zarathustra beats Mohammed easily. I am sorry this all might hurt your feelings, but you simply have not responded to the earlier premises on mystical realities that I set forth with much effort, and fell back to fuzzy quotes.
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