Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the Good

Theology, Religious Studies, religion, god, faith and other topics of a spiritual nature.

Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 1:27 am 

Nick -

But the question is what makes fragmentation tolerable?


I have no idea. Laziness? Ignorance? I mean, it's not as though the effects aren't obvious.

Fragmentation means division and separateness. In your other post you said 'What's so bad about being separate?'. Are YOU tolerating it?

People like to be separate, therefore fragmented. They like their little groups, cultures, nations. They like to be different to others and regard others as 'foreigners'. It appeals to the ego. They like to be exclusive, snobbish, and so on. It's pleasurable, if you go for that sort of thing.

But tolerable? Who tolerates it? Not me!

Plato explains it


I'm sure he does. People can explain cancer but they haven't cured it. We can explain a lot of things but it makes no difference.

Can the charioteer create conscious connection between above and below?


THERE'S NO ABOVE AND BELOW. THERE'S JUST THE PROBLEM. HOW MANY MORE TIMES?

You don't even stop to consider these things, you just repeat, repeat, repeat. And censure those who do likewise as though you didn't!

He must learn how but how can he learn?


Stupid, thoughtless question. If you want to learn, you'll learn, you'll pull out all the stops till you find out.

It can be changed for individuals but the world doesn’t want it.


That's the world's problem. Not interested.

she was obsessed


I know.

Don't you get fed up with trotting out the same answers, the same terms, the same explanations, post after post after post?

You're asleep, Nick. This is totally pointless. I'm not the world's greatest explainer but I know it makes sense. And you've basically ignored it for... how long?

Why do you tolerate it? Never mind 'man', why do YOU tolerate it?

You can't live in a mythical, romantic, philosophical world for ever. But it's up to you, it's your life. If you want to live there, live there, no one's going to stop you. But sooner or later reality will strike and you'll be thoroughly unprepared.

Oh, well, good luck. I expect you'll still be going on about above and below when they carry you out.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 1:35 am 

Poor Nick, he probably thinks I've been sent by the devil to test his faith.

It's my fault. Silly me.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 2:08 am 

...

I can do quotes too. Read this from a powerful, illuminated intelligence.

“There are certain truths which stand out so openly on the roadsides of life, as it were, that every passer-by may see them. Yet, because of their obviousness, the general run of people disregard such truths or at least they do not make them the object of any concious knowledge. People are so blind to some of the simplest facts in everyday life that they are highly surprised when somebody calls attention to what everybody ought to know.”


“Idealism does not represent a superfluous expression of emotion, but in truth it has been, is, and will be, the premise for what we designate as human culture...Without his idealistic attitude all, even the most dazzling faculties of the intellect, would remain mere intellect just like outward appearance without inner value, and never creative force....The purest idealism is unconsciously equivalent to the deepest knowledge...”


“Any philosophy, whether of a religious or political nature - and sometimes the dividing line is hard to determine - fights less for the negative destruction of the opposing ideology than for the positive promotion of its own. Hence its struggle is less defensive than offensive. It therefore has the advantage even in determining the goal, since this goal represents the victory of its own idea, while, conversely,it is hard to determine when the negative aim of the destruction of a hostile doctrine may be regarded as achieved and assured. For this reason alone, the philosophy's offensive will be more systematic and also more powerful than the defensive against a philosophy, since here, too, as always, the attack and not the defence makes the decision. The fight against a spiritual power with methods of violence remains defensive, however, until the sword becomes the support,the herald and disseminator, of a new spiritual doctrine.”


“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . .? We need believing people.”


“Gods and beasts, that is what our world is made of.”

“Few teachers realize that the purpose of teaching history is not the memorizing of some dates and facts, that the student is not interested in knowing the exact date of a battle or the birthday of some marshal or other, and not at all—or at least only very insignificantly—interested in knowing when the crown of his fathers was placed on the brow of some monarch. These are certainly not looked upon as important matters. To study history means to search for and discover the forces that are the causes of those results which appear before our eyes”

“The efficiency of the individual is increased more by a far-reaching granting of freedom than by compulsion from above, and it must further prevent the process of natural selection, which is to promote the most efficient, the most able, and the most industrious, from being cut short.”


“A decayed body is not made the least more aesthetic by a brilliant mind, indeed the highest intellectual training could not be justified if its bearers were at the same time physically degenerate and crippled, weak-minded, wavering and cowardly individuals. What make the Greek ideal of beauty a model is the wonderful combination of the most magnificent physical beauty with brilliant mind and noblest soul.”


And then realise the author is a certain Adolf Hitler, well-known genocidal maniac.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 11:09 am 

...

See, what I ought to do is give you a run-down on this above/below stuff. The problem is I don't think you'll listen. Not that I want you to listen, that would be arrogance, but you should really.

The trouble is you have a philosophy which you're happy with. You're attached to it. In fact, you're so attached to it that you've disappeared and the philosophy has taken over. That's why it's so hard to find a person behind the posts. I'm looking for one but there's nobody there, or very, very little.

The philosophy explains things, which is all well and good, but explanations are one thing and insight is another. You don't deal with life directly but through the philosophy. You're happy, satisfied, with that but it's no good. It's a soporific, an opiate. It gives you a feeling of having mastered the universe. And if someone suggests, as I have before, that you end your attachment, you'll probably not even see it.

That would mean exposing the shell that's become of the person. This absence of a person isn't selflessness. It's not something spiritual or mystical. It's a neurosis that feeds off itself and dares not confront itself.

I can take a very good guess as to why you've done this to yourself but it would be intrusive and personal and not good on a forum. The clues are in your posts... but we won't go into that.

However, I'll do it anyway and others may read it even if you don't.

The psyche of man is his consciousness. Our consciousness is everything we know and think. That's putting it very simply. That consciousness can describe life, society, and all that, even the universe, but the description isn't the real thing. Life is beyond all description.

That's why all philosophies and beliefs aren't sufficient. They can divide things into high and low, describing every layer and level, but that's merely analysis.

It's easy to analyse, break things down, and think one has understood, but the explanation is not the perception of life. It's like looking at things from a narrow window. It's not like walking out into the life beyond the window.

If one's happy with the narrow view and its description then no one will need or want to go outside. And most people with this kind of thinking are happy with it; you don't have to do anything. So they stay within the walls and know the answer to everything.

But if one steps out then the beliefs fall away, they become redundant. Who needs a description of fresh air when they're in it and breathing it?

We can't have both. We can't be in the room and also outside at the same time. It has nothing to do with above/below or high/low. One is inside or outside, that's all.

So the next inevitable question is 'How do I get outside?'. But the answer to that is simple, you're already outside.

There's an old story of the proverbial master and disciple. They're standing on opposite sides of a great river and the disciple shouts across 'Master, how do I get to the other side?' And the master shouts back 'You're on the other side!'.

I know you don't get it. I also know Simone Weil won't give you the answer to that either. Or Plato, or Nietzsche. I know that because I don't know myself.

But there is the outside. There's no line between us and reality, the line is created by ourselves. Remove the barriers between oneself and life and there's just... whatever there is. That's all. But unless one does it it's just words.

And you know how we love words.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby TheVat on May 17th, 2019, 3:45 pm 


There's an old story of the proverbial master and disciple. They're standing on opposite sides of a great river and the disciple shouts across 'Master, how do I get to the other side?' And the master shouts back 'You're on the other side!'.



There is nothing like a river metaphor, Charon.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 6:33 pm 

Thought you'd like it :-)
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby Nick_A on May 17th, 2019, 6:59 pm 

Charon

Do you judge the value of ideas by who expresses them?

“Strong minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, weak minds discuss people.”

You quoted Hitler: “Few teachers realize that the purpose of teaching history is not the memorizing of some dates and facts, that the student is not interested in knowing the exact date of a battle or the birthday of some marshal or other, and not at all—or at least only very insignificantly—interested in knowing when the crown of his fathers was placed on the brow of some monarch. These are certainly not looked upon as important matters. To study history means to search for and discover the forces that are the causes of those results which appear before our eyes”


Am I supposed to deny this observation because Hitler said it? This is why I do not refer to my most important source. He is so far beyond classification that he will arouse negativity and the worse thing anyone can do for another is to associate value with negativity. Discuss ideas not people

The trouble is you have a philosophy which you're happy with. You're attached to it. In fact, you're so attached to it that you've disappeared and the philosophy has taken over. That's why it's so hard to find a person behind the posts. I'm looking for one but there's nobody there, or very, very little.

The philosophy explains things, which is all well and good, but explanations are one thing and insight is another. You don't deal with life directly but through the philosophy. You're happy, satisfied, with that but it's no good. It's a soporific, an opiate. It gives you a feeling of having mastered the universe. And if someone suggests, as I have before, that you end your attachment, you'll probably not even see it.


I have been given a skeleton of a conscious universe. Because Man is a mini universe this skeleton is also what Man is. I am invited to fill in this skeleton with facts verified through the process of inner empiricism. Efforts to consciously experience reality rather than deny it enabled Simone to free herself from impossible attachments to Marxist ideals. I strive for this same freedom. There is nothing to be attached to before verification through efforts at self knowledge, knowledge of universal laws, and opening to conscious contemplation of contradictions.

The psyche of man is his consciousness. Our consciousness is everything we know and think. That's putting it very simply. That consciousness can describe life, society, and all that, even the universe, but the description isn't the real thing. Life is beyond all description.


No. Awakening to human consciousness is a human potential. We live by reactions to acquired contents of consciousness which differ in all people. Consciousness is one thing while contents of consciousness is another

That's why all philosophies and beliefs aren't sufficient. They can divide things into high and low, describing every layer and level, but that's merely analysis.


The aim of secular philosophies is to divide wholeness into fractions. The purpose of esoteric philosophy is to awaken the vertical path leading from fragmentation back to the source.

Plato, in his dialogues, presented a theory that there are three different levels of reality, one of which we live in and are aware of with the senses.

The first level of reality contains the forms. This reality is completely impervious to time itself and will never change. This level of reality cannot be perceived by the senses, only through thinking philosophically and obtaining knowledge through more than just the perceived world. I think of this as the perfect world where objects and ideas exist in a perfect state and cannot be touched and maybe not even perceived by man.
Plato also believed that gaining knowledge of these forms was the real objective for philosophers. Indeed, he stated in his Republic dialogue Book VI that these forms “can only be seen with the eye of the mind”

The second level is our perceived world as we live in it today. Everything around us is changing constantly. We can see proof of this throughout our lives. The weather is different every day, you just got your first gray hair, or you are hungry and need to eat in order to stay alive. All of these are examples of things changing all around us. Indeed, these objects and ideas around us are definitely far from perfect. Furthermore, the practical world that we live in will never be perfect, and the only way to perceive perfection is to grasp the other reality of the forms.

The third level of reality is nothingness.


Everything in the universe is either following the process of involution or moving further into creation or the process of evolution where the quality of being changes to move closer to the source.

If one's happy with the narrow view and its description then no one will need or want to go outside. And most people with this kind of thinking are happy with it; you don't have to do anything. So they stay within the walls and know the answer to everything.

But if one steps out then the beliefs fall away, they become redundant. Who needs a description of fresh air when they're in it and breathing it?

This sounds good but just wishful thinking since the unified person you suggest is actually a plurality. The senses are already outside but have become dulled. Thought has become restricted to dualism and the emotions have become so corrupted that conscience has atrophied. There is nothing to remain outside. The shock of experience soon wears off and old habits return.

But there is the outside. There's no line between us and reality, the line is created by ourselves. Remove the barriers between oneself and life and there's just... whatever there is. That's all. But unless one does it it's just words.

"Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace


As usual she gets it. Man has the conscious potential to consciously connect our inner world with the external world. The fact that it is a potential defines our greatness. The fact that we’ve lost the ability explains our wretchedness.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby PaulN on May 17th, 2019, 9:52 pm 

This is why I do not refer to my most important source. He is so far beyond classification that he will arouse negativity and the worse thing anyone can do for another is to associate value with negativity. Discuss ideas not people...


Agree with that last, but still feel it's intellectually honest (and expected here at PCF) to give sources and cite influences. Context is important in knowing what people mean. You shouldn't make assumptions about how other people take that context. Heck, I would quote Ted Kaczynski on various topics, like capitalism and ecosystems, if I thought it had merit. Even knowing that he was a sick and psychopathic recluse. To endorse an idea is not to endorse necessarily the person originating the idea. Woody Allen married his own daughter, but that doesn't mean Annie Hall isn't a great movie.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby PaulN on May 17th, 2019, 9:55 pm 

A fellah named Charon, offering river crossing parables - heh, heh! I like that one - enlightenment is right here, right now. You just have to quiet your mind to recognize it.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 10:36 pm 

PaulN » May 18th, 2019, 2:55 am wrote:A fellah named Charon, offering river crossing parables


Now you mention it, there is a certain irony :-)
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby charon on May 17th, 2019, 10:58 pm 

Nick -

Do you judge the value of ideas by who expresses them?


Obviously. If a twisted mind can produce tracts that sound as though they were written by a great philosopher it means that all ideas are suspect, no matter who wrote them.

The rest of it we've already covered. I don't repeat.
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby Nick_A on May 18th, 2019, 12:13 am 

charon » May 17th, 2019, 10:58 pm wrote:Nick -

Do you judge the value of ideas by who expresses them?


Obviously. If a twisted mind can produce tracts that sound as though they were written by a great philosopher it means that all ideas are suspect, no matter who wrote them.

The rest of it we've already covered. I don't repeat.



Yes, don't believe. Strive to verify
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Re: Spiritual reflections on attachment, mind, ego, and the

Postby Nick_A on May 18th, 2019, 12:42 pm 

Charon


THERE'S NO ABOVE AND BELOW. THERE'S JUST THE PROBLEM. HOW MANY MORE TIMES?


Our essential difference. Above and below does not exist for you while without the relationship of above and below nothing can exist. The Emerald Tablet will be nonsense for you but is the foundation of the process of existence for me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Tablet

Newton's translation begins with:

This true without lying, certain and most true.
That which is below is like that which is above and that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing
And as all things have been and arose from one by the meditation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.


You deny what I see as essential for our universe. The secular world agrees with you. This is why we cannot communicate.
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