Is there a source or is there no source to be found?

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Is there a source or is there no source to be found?

Postby parsoff on May 10th, 2019, 8:38 am 

Is there a source or no source to be found that could give directions to humans?

In my view there is no source and that makes an end to human discussions if their religion was better or something else that they use was better. It is all in your mind and there next to the universe is also no source to be found that could give directions.

If there was a source all life was programmed and controlled to follow that source making freedom not exist and free will not exist.
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Re: Is there a source or is there no source to be found?

Postby Brent696 on May 22nd, 2019, 4:29 pm 

parsoff » May 10th, 2019, 7:38 am

Is there a source or no source to be found that could give directions to humans?



Yes, the nature and design of reality. But human being are inherently flawed in their perception of reality. Having eaten as it were, from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the physical senses condition our brains to think in terms of a duality where either side of the equation is as real as the other. In short, pain is as real as pleasure, and we PROJECT this duality on all that we see, including how we read the scriptures.

For example, it seems plain in Christianity that to receive Jesus and the Holy Spirit, one also receives "Eternal Life", and yet their theology clings to the souls immortality so that those who are thought of as evil, shall also live forever, but merely quantified as being apart from God. They often claim grace, and claim to be free of legalism, and yet their theology portrays a duality of reward and punishment.

Believe it or not, no where in scripture does it say the wicked will be punished throughout eternity, the closest this scripture comes is in Revelations where this is said of the beast and the false prophet, which are highly symbolic and may not even refer to individual souls, then later the wicked are cast into the same lake of fire.

Words that the Bible does use are, destroyed, perish, the abyss (bottomless pit), outer darkness, and death as the most common example, even as the blood in Egypt deterred the angel of death. Jesus even flat out states that God will destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna (lake of fire), and John refers to this as the second death. Yet under the illusions of the physical senses, theology continues to be influence by the knowledge of good and evil.

I say "Illusions" because if we use our intellect a bit more discerningly, we see the universe itself presents a different duality, one where something is opposed to nothing. A Zero and heat, darkness and light, ignorance and knowledge, lies and truth, so the scientific, logical, discerning mind, rising above the influence of base physical sensation in hopes of observing reality itself without interference, will have a more direct "witness" of reality or truth as the case may be.

Despite the misinterpretation of the scriptures by carnal minds, and the many theologies that abound whereby their follows might feel superior in some ways to others, the scripture align much better when seen through the eyes of the "something verses nothing" duality, and such contradictions as the immortality of all souls is diffused. Logic thus is not contradictory to the scripture, the Bible and even some others, but it does contradict the presented theologies of the mainstream.

And one studies and sees how such scriptures line up with the something/nothing duality of the universe, then one comes to the apex of truth as they rely upon two witness, one the inspired scriptures (not others theology or popular opinion), and the other the very nature of the universe itself. Coming to the truth which is verified by these two witnesses, the inspiration and the universe, one attains true Faith, not the blind kind where people can feels superior for believing something they do not understand, but rather how the scriptures, despite so many gross misinterpretations from others and sense perception, align more concisely with the true nature of the universe.

Thus the scripture can becomes a guide in directing us how best to live our lives, if they are true (harmonious, aligning) to the universe, then they can also teach us more about ourselves, just as we can learn the lessons of nature from a garden, and apply such to our understanding about life, so we can learn from universal constants about the higher unseen realities the scripture hope to present.
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Re: Is there a source or is there no source to be found?

Postby Nick_A on May 23rd, 2019, 3:17 pm 

Brent696

I see that you are a profound thinker. Let me ask you a basic question on the Source to begin with. Is there anything about Plotinus' explanation of the ONE that you are opposed to?

https://www.iep.utm.edu/plotinus/#SH2a

a. The One
The 'concept' of the One is not, properly speaking, a concept at all, since it is never explicitly defined by Plotinus, yet it is nevertheless the foundation and grandest expression of his philosophy. Plotinus does make it clear that no words can do justice to the power of the One; even the name, 'the One,' is inadequate, for naming already implies discursive knowledge, and since discursive knowledge divides or separates its objects in order to make them intelligible, the One cannot be known through the process of discursive reasoning (Ennead VI.9.4). Knowledge of the One is achieved through the experience of its 'power' (dunamis) and its nature, which is to provide a 'foundation' (arkhe) and location (topos) for all existents (VI.9.6). The 'power' of the One is not a power in the sense of physical or even mental action; the power of the One, as Plotinus speaks of it, is to be understood as the only adequate description of the 'manifestation' of a supreme principle that, by its very nature, transcends all predication and discursive understanding. This 'power,' then, is capable of being experienced, or known, only through contemplation (theoria), or the purely intellectual 'vision' of the source of all things. The One transcends all beings, and is not itself a being, precisely because all beings owe their existence and subsistence to their eternal contemplation of the dynamic manifestation(s) of the One. The One can be said to be the 'source' of all existents only insofar as every existent naturally and (therefore) imperfectly contemplates the various aspects of the One, as they are extended throughout the cosmos, in the form of either sensible or intelligible objects or existents. The perfect contemplation of the One, however, must not be understood as a return to a primal source; for the One is not, strictly speaking, a source or a cause, but rather the eternally present possibility -- or active making-possible -- of all existence, of Being (V.2.1). According to Plotinus, the unmediated vision of the 'generative power' of the One, to which existents are led by the Intelligence (V.9.2), results in an ecstatic dance of inspiration, not in a satiated torpor (VI.9.8); for it is the nature of the One to impart fecundity to existents -- that is to say: the One, in its regal, indifferent capacity as undiminishable potentiality of Being, permits both rapt contemplation and ecstatic, creative extension. These twin poles, this 'stanchion,' is the manifested framework of existence which the One produces, effortlessly (V.1.6). The One, itself, is best understood as the center about which the 'stanchion,' the framework of the cosmos, is erected (VI.9.8). This 'stanchion' or framework is the result of the contemplative activity of the Intelligence.
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Re: Is there a source or is there no source to be found?

Postby Brent696 on July 9th, 2019, 11:00 pm 

Nick_A » May 23rd, 2019, 2:17 pm

I see that you are a profound thinker. Let me ask you a basic question on the Source to begin with. Is there anything about Plotinus' explanation of the ONE that you are opposed to?


Sorry about the delay, I assume you did not respond from the "quote" option so I did not get an alert.

a. The One

The 'concept' of the One is not, properly speaking, a concept at all, since it is never explicitly defined by Plotinus, yet it is nevertheless the foundation and grandest expression of his philosophy. Plotinus does make it clear that no words can do justice to the power of the One; even the name, 'the One,' is inadequate, for naming already implies discursive knowledge, and since discursive knowledge divides or separates its objects in order to make them intelligible, the One cannot be known through the process of discursive reasoning


Generally this is correct, our minds think in terms of "this and not that", which is why the Buddha begins with "Neti, Neti" (Neither this nor that). Zen also works diligently to look beyond the substantial way we organize thought, what we think of as "existence". As a word arises from silence we think of "IT" as a thing, certainly that word exists as it occupies space and time, but we ignore its temporal nature, likewise discounting the eternal existence of the silence that lies beneath it, thinking of such silence as if it is nothing, and yet "IT IS" as much and more so than any "word" spoken. What then is REAL, the word, temporal, passing, lacking any attribute of eternity, or the silence that has existed from the beginning.

That being said, I would say the concept of "One" can be understood intellectually, in the context of "ONLY ONE" whereas nothing else exists. This means that the "ONE" exists, truly so, and all that we see, hear, and touch, although it appears to exists, even ourselves, simply does not. We might ask how can we deny our own existence, after all, I think, therefore I am, but consider ourselves a "word" spoken, a star in the universe simply another "word" spoken, each born from nothing (silence), and each to return, and multiply each by infinity and they all disappear.

Multiply ten by an infinity, or multiply ten billion by an infinity, and they all disappear as the infinite (the One) and the finite (multiplicity, creation, cosmos, things) cannot exist in the same place and time, for that matter even space and time cannot exist in the "One" as they are also describe a "this and not that"

(Ennead VI.9.4). Knowledge of the One is achieved through the experience of its 'power' (dunamis) and its nature, which is to provide a 'foundation' (arkhe) and location (topos) for all existents (VI.9.6). The 'power' of the One is not a power in the sense of physical or even mental action; the power of the One, as Plotinus speaks of it, is to be understood as the only adequate description of the 'manifestation' of a supreme principle that, by its very nature, transcends all predication and discursive understanding. This 'power,' then, is capable of being experienced, or known, only through contemplation (theoria), or the purely intellectual 'vision' of the source of all things. The One transcends all beings, and is not itself a being, precisely because all beings owe their existence and subsistence to their eternal contemplation of the dynamic manifestation(s) of the One. The One can be said to be the 'source' of all existents only insofar as every existent naturally and (therefore) imperfectly contemplates the various aspects of the One, as they are extended throughout the cosmos, in the form of either sensible or intelligible objects or existents. The perfect contemplation of the One, however, must not be understood as a return to a primal source; for the One is not, strictly speaking, a source or a cause, but rather the eternally present possibility -- or active making-possible -- of all existence, of Being (V.2.1). According to Plotinus, the unmediated vision of the 'generative power' of the One, to which existents are led by the Intelligence (V.9.2), results in an ecstatic dance of inspiration, not in a satiated torpor (VI.9.8); for it is the nature of the One to impart fecundity to existents -- that is to say: the One, in its regal, indifferent capacity as undiminishable potentiality of Being, permits both rapt contemplation and ecstatic, creative extension. These twin poles, this 'stanchion,' is the manifested framework of existence which the One produces, effortlessly (V.1.6). The One, itself, is best understood as the center about which the 'stanchion,' the framework of the cosmos, is erected (VI.9.8). This 'stanchion' or framework is the result of the contemplative activity of the Intelligence.


Obviously this is a commentary on Plotinus' work, and in these subjects very few students grasp the full context of the master, so I must remember I am not reading directly from Plotinus' lips as it were. The idea of "framework" seems to say the commentator did not have a full grasp of the separate values as I put forth in the contrast between an Infinite and a finite, one would do better to think in terms of Vishnu (Creator) sleeping on the infinite ocean of his own being, and all of the universe nothing more than that of which He dreams.
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