Some Religions Indirectly Claim An Incestuous Beginning

[Belle Catherine]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

[CanadysPeak]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPaV3P8-O2Y

If you are being literal, and I beg you to not be, then you must known those generations were not yet bound by the Law. Incest was not unknown then, anymore than it is today.

[Belle Catherine]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPaV3P8-O2Y

If you are being literal, and I beg you to not be, then you must known those generations were not yet bound by the Law. Incest was not unknown then, anymore than it is today.

I am not using the word "incestuous" in legal terms. I am using it to point out the type of sexual relationship the genesis story obligatorily demands: radical inbreeding.
Furthermore, what is a proper sexual behaviour or not, is not only determined by written law. Even animal species avoid inbreeding. This avoidance behavior was written in their instincts by past genetic evolution. Natural Selection eliminated most of the genes that were too promiscuous in relation to sex with close relatives ( they caused lesser fit descendants ).

[Fuqin]

Most mythology’s have not only incest’s but the whole spectrum of human sexual behaviour including bestiality, the various gods themselves have different sexual orientations male, female - hetro, homeo and hermaphrodite, the ancients apparently had sex with gods ,angels and monsters too but you don’t take that literally do you , I think it’s a topic worth exploring , but being crass and overtly disgusted isn’t really productive, the fact that these sexual themes re- occur in all mythologys can probably inform us more about ourselves than it can the people and cultures who produced it. And where did pan get those hairy hoofed legs from I wonder ;)

[dlorde]

Clearly not a serious problem for those who see it as mythology, but how do bible literalists interpret it?

[Fuqin]

Clearly not a serious problem for those who see it as mythology, but how do bible literalists interpret it?

ha ha ha well bible literalists are at pains to interpret anything
Deuteronomy 33:17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ...
a fact of being literal is an absence of interpretation.

[Belle Catherine]

Most mythology’s have not only incest’s but the whole spectrum of human sexual behaviour including bestiality, the various gods themselves have different sexual orientations male, female - hetro, homeo and hermaphrodite, the ancients apparently had sex with gods ,angels and monsters too but you don’t take that literally do you , I think it’s a topic worth exploring , but being crass and overtly disgusted isn’t really productive, the fact that these sexual themes re- occur in all mythologys can probably inform us more about ourselves than it can the people and cultures who produced it. And where did pan get those hairy hoofed legs from I wonder ;)

I am not sure who you are assuming getting crass or disgusted.

I analyze the excesses of these religious mythologies in a cool way. I do not have any sexual preconception and I see innate morality as a biological and social mechanism evolved to increase biological survivability and reproductive success in social environments. On the other hand, cultural morality is partially an extension of the biological ones and partially an independent phenomenon related to the fitness of memes ( ideas ) instead of genes. Sometimes, genes and memes cooperate with each other and other times they are in frontal and antagonistic conflict. Both fight for dominance on their carriers and in the social environments. Genes and memes are responsible for separate evolutionary processes although the later is enormously faster and more "promiscuous". However, both processes are intertwined and influence each other.

[Fuqin]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

Incidently there are two accounts of the creation in the bible one is clearly intended as mythology the other is less so but dose state “God created mankind he created them both male and female” even in the more mythical account Cain encounters another tribe , cain was the murderous agriculturist who became a city builder. His brother able nomadic herdsmen, the characters in the story represent much more than just themselves . Both accounts were adapted from other sources and were possibly created to give the Hebrews their own identity.

[CanadysPeak]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPaV3P8-O2Y

If you are being literal, and I beg you to not be, then you must known those generations were not yet bound by the Law. Incest was not unknown then, anymore than it is today.

I am not using the word "incestuous" in legal terms. I am using it to point out the type of sexual relationship the genesis story obligatorily demands: radical inbreeding.
Furthermore, what is a proper sexual behaviour or not, is not only determined by written law. Even animal species avoid inbreeding. This avoidance behavior was written in their instincts by past genetic evolution. Natural Selection eliminated most of the genes that were too promiscuous in relation to sex with close relatives ( they caused lesser fit descendants ).

When I write about the Law in the Religion Forum, I don't mean anything about the legal system.

[Fuqin]

My apology’s Belle I just saw the YouTube image where it says I FVC!<Ed my mother ,and it seemed a bit crass to me and controversial, I don’t know about you but when the big F word comes out of my mouth the neighbours usually lock themselves inside there houses .

I see innate morality as a biological and social mechanism evolved to increase biological survivability and reproductive success in social environments

No argument there however I’m not 100% on Memes, but forgetting any theoretical aspect of memes, what memes are purported to do I think is somewhat observable and in general I have no argument with what you are saying , I’m actually more fascinated now about exploring the aspect of mythology and sexuality , I hadn’t really thought about it before and I’m sure there’s more to it than just counting backward to some inevitable first person and saying whoops guess we have to allow for a bit of incest.

[ronjanec]

Belle Catherine,

That is really one obnoxious video with all the fake laughter! But you do ask a very logical and fair question here. Like our esteemed colleague Fuqin has already mentioned, there was said to have been some really strange sexual acts going on back in the beginning of things(humans having sex with angels etc.)

I don't have an answer for this, but I will ask one of the ministers at my church to try to give me an opinion on this, and then try to get back to you on this.

[Eighty]

Well let's take a look at Adam and Eve.

Adam was created directly from God, he came from the dust of the earth. He had no mother, and did not experience coming from the womb. Eve came from Adam.

I can understand if someone wants to claim that as incest, but it does not follow the natural-course of incest as we know it today.
Why?
Because we humans do not have the ability to reproduce in the same way Eve was produced.

I'm not sure what we may call it, but incest seems to be a bit off from the proper terminology for incest.

[Eighty]

Is not a frontal moral contradiction that the first generations after Adam and Eve were obligatorily INCESTUOUS ?

I am very cautiously responding to your thread, because your video is obviously insensitive and mocking to us Christians, so I will presume you are coming into this with a degree of judgement and reserved arrogance because I imagine anything we say would only further provocate you.

There was incest in the OT. How else would they reproduce? I want to clarify something here: incest does not prevent children! The Hutterites in my area have been involved in incest for over a century and just recently started making efforts to stop incest.

What is also important to understand is that the offspring of these men went one of two ways: Godly, or ungodly. This is what has given rise to the myth of the Nephilim.

And it was a sin to have relations with those who were not of God, a.k.a. non-believers.

Part of being a Christian involves believing in miracles. If you do not believe in miracles, you are not a Christian. This greatly separates us from the rest of the world because miracles help us to believe and understand the word.

[Fuqin]

he came from the dust of the earth. He had no mother,

buy the way theologically even within a fundamentalist perspective the earth is the mother .

Eve came from Adam.

You’ve got to look at your translations my friend
‘Adam’:- Hebrew: אָדָם‎, ʼĀḏām, "man; mankind"
Eve:- Hebrew: חַוָּה‎, Ḥawwā, "living one"
Now imagine trying to read this book, translated with expanded explanatory and historical information (indecently the NIV study bible is a go IMHO) however with a study bible ,concordance commentary’s and the Net , I say please use the tools your pastor dose and then tell me, you’re a true believer
You’re a protestant No! You could not be who you are if you unquestionably conformed to forma dogma, isn’t God supposed to be the living word?

Because we humans do not have the ability to reproduce in the same way Eve was produced.!

I’ve encounter the same or similar idea before , that being that Adam and eves genetics were in some kind of purity of state , that over time has broken down , however this relies on a scientific naivety about how populations actually work. If incest doesn’t work now it sure to hell didn’t work then

Part of being a Christian involves believing in miracles. If you do not believe in miracles, you are not a Christian. This greatly separates us from the rest of the world because miracles help us to believe and understand the word.

Can you give me an honest example of your experience with the miraculous , my query is sincere I hope your reply will be also

[Forest_Dump]

Well, I am not Christian (I am agnostic) and I also find this video disgusting purely because it's only intent is to throw hate at other people's beliefs, not to inform, etc. Frankly this is a perfect example of religious extremism as bad as any out there.

Now, of course, back in the day when I was Christian, I asked the same question as supposedly posed here and one answer I got from a Biblical literalist who didn't believe in evolution was that Adam and Eve were merely the first created and Abel and Cain, etc., were an example of some of the problems faced by the first people. But God created other people after the expulsion from Eden and these were the people Adam and Eve's children mated with. Of course, less literal folk can offer different answers such as that there were others evolving and Adam and Eve were just the first to cross the threshold, as it were. But I repeat, there is absolutely no need for anyone to be this hate-filled about the fact that others do not believe as they do.

[CanadysPeak]

I am descended from Nantucket Quakers. Imagine ten families, a hundred years, and a requirement to only marry within the Church. I am not as bothered by the implications of incest as some, so I take all this with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, there are various traditions that mitigate the incestuousness of these early folks. In one, Eve is Adam's third wife and there were other folks running about, most notably from Lilith. In others, there were other people living outside Eden. In any event, any evolved creature is inbred to some extent (think Snow Leopards) and thus at least somewhat incestuous.

[Eighty]

buy the way theologically even within a fundamentalist perspective the earth is the mother .

In a sense, yes you're correct. I cannot speak from an entirely generalist theological perspective, and I don't believe anyone can because each religion is different.

I am a protestant, and a Calvanist at that, and as far as earth being a "mother", it is not a mother in the sense that God had relations with it. He created it. Your generalization is very erroneous.

You’ve got to look at your translations my friend
Now imagine trying to read this book, translated with expanded explanatory and historical information (indecently the NIV study bible is a go IMHO) however with a study bible ,concordance commentary’s and the Net , I say please use the tools your pastor dose and then tell me, you’re a true believer
You’re a protestant No! You could not be who you are if you unquestionably conformed to forma dogma, isn’t God supposed to be the living word?

I am very familiar with both the Greek and Hebrew languages, and very specifically their place in the Bible.

Now to test your Biblical knowledge: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have have dominion over over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.'" -Genesis 1:26-27

Now the 2nd story: "And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."-Genesis 2:21-22

First and foremost; Adam and Eve have nothing to do with incest. They are completely different. Both created beings that do not come from the same 'incestuous' gene pool.

And I do not go to church so I don't have a pastor. I do have a concordance, knowledge of Hebrew and Greek and a great desire to learn.

Yes God is the living Word, I believe that.

I’ve encounter the same or similar idea before , that being that Adam and eves genetics were in some kind of purity of state , that over time has broken down , however this relies on a scientific naivety about how populations actually work. If incest doesn’t work now it sure to hell didn’t work then

This owes itself to miracles! As I said, one cannot be a Christian if one does not believe in miracles. This is perhaps the largest, single divider other than the question of the God existence between believers and non-believers.
If we could deduce God within scientific inquiry there would be no reason to be believe in Him and no purpose to faith, but thankfully He worked that out ahead of time.

: Can you give me an honest example of your experience with the miraculous , my query is sincere I hope your reply will be also

Oh gosh just one? Well I was shot through the sternum at the age of 13. After being shot I still managed to chase down the guy who shot me.
I was hit by a car when I was 8 and managed to fly 16 feet, land on my front tire and spin around 5 times before landing and only suffering a fractured left leg.
I was knocked unconscious and suffered from internal bleeding from a direct hit from a baseball when I was 15 and managed to heal up ok.
I slipped off my 4-wheeler and mangled my leg, tearing all the skin off it before hitting an eight foot single and crashing into a fence, suffering from head injuries, a torn up leg, muscle and cartilage loss, and 3rd degree burns on my right leg from the engine. I was 17.

I have more stories than that but I think that should suffice. I grew up in a gang-infested part of Fresno, California and have a lot of stories related to the gangs and people there that I can share if you want as well.

I believe miracles are a somewhat common phenomena, but there are people who are very hesitant to admit it for fear of leading to a belief in a Higher Power.

What's funny about it all, is that some of the most, or perhaps the most scientifically trained people in the world, doctors, are amongst the first to believe in miracles.

The comedy is actually lost on me, but between atheists, agnostics, and other religions it seems to be quite the parody.

[Don Juan]

I am not using the word "incestuous" in legal terms. I am using it to point out the type of sexual relationship the genesis story obligatorily demands: radical inbreeding.
Furthermore, what is a proper sexual behaviour or not, is not only determined by written law. Even animal species avoid inbreeding. This avoidance behavior was written in their instincts by past genetic evolution. Natural Selection eliminated most of the genes that were too promiscuous in relation to sex with close relatives ( they caused lesser fit descendants ).

The idea that the Bible promotes inbreeding and incest can also arise from the thinking focused on certain aspects of the text while failing to consider contextual connections to aid understanding.

First, in the time of Cain, it is not true that Eve was the only woman for it was written:

Genesis 5:4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had sons and daughters.

Second, the Bible did not promote radical inbreeding because there was no intention to interbreed closely related individuals to fix a desired biological character and eliminate unfavorable ones. Meaning, the interbreeding soon might had occurred less and less in favor of outcrossing or in other words, in general, it was possible that there was an avoidance, from inbreeding. Eventually laws were created to prevent inbreeding and incest because it was written:

Leviticus 18:06-15 "6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. 8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father. 9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. 10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you. 11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister. 12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative. 13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative. 14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. 15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

So I think those who put up the video were not making a sound and fair evaluation of their premises and of the Biblical text.

[azriel]

I can't believe that the Abrahamic God condoned incetual relations at any time. I'm more inclined to believe that Adam and Eve were not the first homosapiens on Earh; but more correctly were the first caucasian homosapiens. As far an angels having sex with humans, I'm inclined to disbelieve that as well. The debate over creationism and evolution has long been unresloved; but I certainly cannot buy into the six day creation belief of the christians. I personally believe that the Earth came into being over millions of years as God intended. Outside of the garden of Eden, there was already multitudes of evolved Neandrethals, living on the Earth.

[Natural ChemE]

If you're looking at the religious morality behind it, didn't God tell them to be fruitful and multiply? Direct orders from God pretty much trump everything; that was pretty much the point of the Abraham-ordered-to-kill-his-son-Isaac story.

[CanadysPeak]

I can't believe that the Abrahamic God condoned incetual relations at any time. I'm more inclined to believe that Adam and Eve were not the first homosapiens on Earh; but more correctly were the first caucasian homosapiens. As far an angels having sex with humans, I'm inclined to disbelieve that as well. The debate over creationism and evolution has long been unresloved; but I certainly cannot buy into the six day creation belief of the christians. I personally believe that the Earth came into being over millions of years as God intended. Outside of the garden of Eden, there was already multitudes of evolved Neandrethals, living on the Earth.

Caucasian? I thought they were made in the image of G-d. Wouldn't that make them African?

[Forest_Dump]

Caucasian? I thought they were made in the image of G-d. Wouldn't that make them African?

I would have thought obviously more Arabic in appearance given where this all happened. So probably not either like northern Eurasians (including the range from the Sami to the Ainu) or the later Swedes (like the Rus, a bunch of Vikings who colonized the Volga about 1000 years ago) - the term Caucasoid has been used to describe either.

[CanadysPeak]

Caucasian? I thought they were made in the image of G-d. Wouldn't that make them African?

I would have thought obviously more Arabic in appearance given where this all happened. So probably not either like northern Eurasians (including the range from the Sami to the Ainu) or the later Swedes (like the Rus, a bunch of Vikings who colonized the Volga about 1000 years ago) - the term Caucasoid has been used to describe either.

So, you think G-d is Sumerian? Possibly, or also Akkadian. But, do we call that Caucasian, Semitic, Arabic, Asiatic, or African? While I agree that the Garden of Eden should be placed in the lower Mesopotamia area - the marshes? Ur? - I think it most likely that the origin of those settlers was East Africa. But, should you want to make G-d an Arab, I've no objection; just don't make her a Saxon.

[azriel]

Why do you refrain from the word God?

Why do you refer to God as her?

If you look at the skin colour of the President of Israel, why is it offensive to you to consider that the biblical nation of Israel is made up of the caucasian race?

[CanadysPeak]

Why do you refrain from the word God?

Why do you refer to God as her?

If you look at the skin colour of the President of Israel, why is it offensive to you to consider that the biblical nation of Israel is made up of the caucasian race?

When I speak of the Hebrew god, I try to always be respectful and use "G-d", as the name may not be spoken.

My god of the month is Changing Woman, so I use "her".

There is no such thing as the "caucasian race".

p.s., If you're wondering, I'm a pandeist.

[azriel]

I only have one thing to say, Love God with all your heart, mind , soul and strength; and love your neighbour as yourself. For in so doing you will fulfill the law and the prophets.

[epithets deleted by moderator]

[mtbturtle]

Why do you refrain from the word God?

Why do you refer to God as her?

If you look at the skin colour of the President of Israel, why is it offensive to you to consider that the biblical nation of Israel is made up of the caucasian race?

When I speak of the Hebrew god, I try to always be respectful and use "G-d", as the name may not be spoken.

My god of the month is Changing Woman, so I use "her".

There is no such thing as the "caucasian race".

p.s., If you're wondering, I'm a pandeist.

I've always been a bit confused about the differences between deism, pandeism, pantheism, panentheism...

[Marshall]

...
p.s., If you're wondering, I'm a pandeist.

That's interesting. I googled "pandeist" and these were the top five hits:

Pandeism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandeism
Pandeism or Pan-Deism (from Ancient Greek: πάν pan "all" and Latin: deus meaning "God" in the sense of deism), is a term describing beliefs incorporating or ...
A pantheistic form of deism

Pandeism - Wikiquote
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pandeism Jul 5, 2011 – Pandeism (or Pan-Deism) is a variation of Pantheism and Deism, combining attributes of these belief systems. It has also been used to refer to ...

Urban Dictionary: pandeist
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pandeist One who practices pandeism, to wit, one who believes the Creator of our Universe to have in fact become our Universe and all within it, and who tre...

Urban Dictionary: pandeism
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pandeism the moast awesome religion that states that God set the universe into motion by becoming the universe. universe = god.

Pandeism 547 up, 17 down
A group of religions similar to pantheism, but with a deist outlook on the nature of God. Pandeists believe that God is immanent in the universe - basically that God is everything and everything is God (or gods and goddesses, depending on the particular religion). However, unlike pantheism, God is not a conscious or active being, but non-personal or non-interventional.
It is different to panentheism or panendeism, which believe that even though God is immanent in the universe, he also transcends it (exists outside of it partly).

The Pandeist Theorem
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy ... node6.html
The Pandeist Theorem. ... If God exists, then God is identical to the Universe. That is, the theorem is a statement of conditional pandeism. If God exists at all, God ...

[Marshall]

Candady in case you are wondering, I'm a Pandeist too. I have an Ionian perspective on it, namely that although admittedly there is no evidence to support the idea that the universe is consious if it should by some chance actually happen to be conscious then it would not mind a bit my believing that it is wasn't.
Not a "jealous" or pedantic universe in other words. Not especially concerned about what we do or don't believe.

So you just believe the best you pragmatically can about the universe and leave it at that. I happen to think on the whole it's not conscious. But some pieces here and there obviously are. Awareness arises spontaneously and naturally. Earth life having evolved some consciousness does contribute a bit of awareness and this is something to be modestly satisfied about, even proud. The universe is at least a little bit self-aware because of us.

What I really admire and wonder at is the beauty and sufficiency of the laws of physics. The greek root of the word for physics is birth/growth---the laws of physcs are the laws of how things are born and grow. http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Phusis.html How the other elements arose from hydrogen by fusion and were spread around by explosion so they could condense into sites where life could evolve singing and dancing understanding and purpose and french fries. these are excellent and beautiful laws. which seem to exist even though we only grope towards them in gradually better approximation. It seems there are correct laws (at least in an asymptotic sense) because our approximations keep getting better, as if there were some final station on the line of discovery---but there may not be: so far it has always been possible to improve/refine/generalize. As if there were a direction but no end (to discovery of how to think the world.) So that is admittedly a bit curious.

The romans' translation of physis was natura which also means birth, what is born. I think. IIRC.

That was my religion (in case you were wondering :-D) today on the 2 January of the year 2612 of the Ionian enlightenment. The assembled multitude of devout Ionians joyously declare themselves Pandeists with all their heart.

[EDIT: I find that it still is again today, the morning of 3 January 2612. It looks like a good drying day, and I have laundry on the line.]

[Marshall]

The first tenet of the Ionian Pandeist point of view is that the Universe does not care what you believe.
So you can believe in Aphrodite if you like, and also or alternatively in the G_d of Abraham. This is OK with the Universe.

This tenet is supported by the absence of empirical evidence that the Universe does care. There is no evidence that the Universe is a jealous Universe. So if you happen not to believe in some particular deity, don't let it bother you. It really is OK.

I'm not sure what the second tenet is, but I suspect it's that people should be civil to each other. Not only on Earth of course, but on any other inhabited planets. Aliens too should be nice to each other and refrain from excessive quarrelsomeness. We Ionians like our tenets to be as generally applicable as possible.

The third tenet, I think, is that you don't have to believe what you are told or read in a book. You can think critically and might find better explanations if you're lucky. This goes for Aliens as well---they are allowed to reason critically too.

If you happen to think of other tenets please add them to the list.