Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

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Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 3rd, 2017, 3:33 am 

Wiki: Apocalypticism says:
Apocalypticism is the religious belief that there will be an apocalypse, a term which originally referred to a revelation of God's will, but now usually refers to the belief that the end of the world is imminent, even within one's own lifetime. This belief is usually accompanied by the idea that civilization will soon come to a tumultuous end due to some sort of catastrophic global event.


Now let's imagine that I am an atheist and have $5million to invest in an entrepreneur, and I have a choice of 2 entrepreneurs (A or B) who have equally attractive proposals that will give me some seriously juicy returns for my investment after 3 years.

I do a little background research and discover that entrepreneur A is an agnostic family man, while entrepreneur B is also a family man, but is very religious and believes in an apocalyptic prophecy. With a little more googling I find that the prophecized apocalypse that B believes in has been predicted to occur within the next 2 years. B knows that I am an atheist, which would likely mean that I am going to hell and he will never see me again after the apocalypse, since he would be most likely destined to go to heaven.

Now, it seems just wise economic judgement to invest in the agnostic, rather than the apocalypticist, because is B really going to use my invested money wisely while he expects an apocalypse to occur any time soon, and with doomed old me (as an atheist) destined for hell? Him cheating a literally damned man deosn't seem like a daunting proposition, so why would he not just blow all my money on enjoying himself as much as possible before the apocalypse occurs? It would be practical just to make the best use of it before the inevitable event, would it not?

Does this mean that apocalypticist-leaning businesspeople should find it more and more difficult to do long-term business outside of their own religious communities? And do you even think that adherents of religions that have an apocalyptic prophecy woven into them will also suffer from such problems as the global community learn more about their potential business partners' deeper cultural beliefs?
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 3rd, 2017, 4:16 pm 

Even science and liberalism do not paint such a rosy picture of our immediate future if we do not radically change our behavior. The possible and even likely causes for total disaster are legion.

But generally such doomsayer rhetoric whether scientific, liberal, or religious is typically geared toward motivating change rather than fatalistically accepting disaster -- otherwise what is the point?

As for economics, cults have long been exploiting apocalyptic predictions for getting people to give over all their money to them and this is unlikely to change very much either.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 4th, 2017, 1:46 am 

mitchellmckain » June 4th, 2017, 5:16 am wrote:Even science and liberalism do not paint such a rosy picture of our immediate future if we do not radically change our behavior. The possible and even likely causes for total disaster are legion.

Indeed, but science is science - even if it were completely eradicated, it would return in the same form, something that all the various religions of the world would not do. Eschatological religions are founded in temporally and geographically localised anecdotes - mere hearsay. Science is based on universally repeatable observations of the practical physical world, no matter the time or place.

But generally such doomsayer rhetoric whether scientific, liberal, or religious is typically geared toward motivating change rather than fatalistically accepting disaster -- otherwise what is the point?

An apocalypse to return all the souls to the kingdom of God, or Allah, or Brahman, and so on (depending on which religion one chooses). Is this not why the Biblical God flooded the earth and told Noah not to allow humans in their sinful form to continue living on the earth?

As for economics, cults have long been exploiting apocalyptic predictions for getting people to give over all their money to them and this is unlikely to change very much either.

I am not talking about cults here, I am talking about mainstream religions that have apocalyptic prophecies built into them - for example:
King James Bible wrote:“That ye be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the LORD and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation” (2 Peter 3:2-4 ) “The LORD is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9) “For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8 )

Of course there will be religious followers located along a broad scale - from fundamentalists all the way to agnostic, but who is to know where a follower is placed on that scale when one sits down to do business with them. As soon as an agnostic Capitalist discovers he is doing potentially long-term business with a religous person whose book prophecises an apocalypse of sorts, then will there not be additional future economic concerns when compared to doing business with an agnostic, for example?

For reference, here are some dates predicted for apocalyptic events in the recent past and near future:

2006 Sep 12: Yisrayl Hawkins, Pastor and Overseer, The House of Yahweh, Abilene, Texas in their February 2006 newsletter predicted the start of a nuclear war on September 12, 2006.

2011 May 21: Harold Camping, an American Christian radio broadcaster, author and evangelist, who began serving as president of Family Radio, a California-based radio station group that broadcasts to more than 150 markets in the United States in 1958, predicted that the Rapture and devastating earthquakes would occur on May 21, 2011 with God taking approximately 3% of the world's population into Heaven, and that the end of the world would occur five months later on October 21.

2011 Sep 29: Ronald Weinland, a Colorado-born minister, founder of the Church of God Preparing for the Kingdom of God; an apocalypticist splinter sect of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG), stated Jesus Christ would return on this day. He prophesied nuclear explosions in U.S. port cities by July 2008 as the blowing of the Second Trumpet of Revelation. After his prophecy failed to come true he changed the date for the return of Jesus Christ to May 27, 2012.

2013 Aug 23: Grigori Rasputin prophesied a storm would take place on this day where fire would destroy most life on land and Jesus Christ would come back to Earth to comfort those in distress.

2014 Apr – 2015 Sept: The so-called Blood Moon Prophecy, first predicted by Mark Blitz in 2008 and then by John Hagee in 2014. These Christian ministers claimed that the tetrad in 2014 and 2015 may allegedly represent prophecies given in the Bible relating to the second coming of Jesus Christ.

2017 May 13: Horacio Villegas, a Catholic who is commonly referred to as the “Messenger of God,” a self-proclaimed prophet who allegedly predicted Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential win, and that the new president “would attack Syria” and would clash with leaders in China, North Korea, and Russia, claimed that the world would descend into nuclear war on May 13, 2017, due to increased tensions on the Korean Peninsula. He also said this date coincided with the hundred-year anniversary of the visitation of Our Lady of Fátima.

2020 Jeane Dixon, one of the best-known American self-proclaimed psychics and astrologers of the 20th century, claimed that Armageddon would take place in 2020, and Jesus will return to defeat the unholy trinity of the Antichrist, Satan, and the False prophet between 2020 and 2037. She had also previously predicted the world would end on February 4, 1962.

...and so on...

Do you remember the alleged Mayan apocalypse at the end of the 13th b'ak'tun (2012)? "The Earth would be destroyed by an asteroid, Nibiru, or some other interplanetary object; an alien invasion; or a supernova. Mayanist scholars stated that no extant classic Maya accounts forecasted impending doom, and that the idea that the Long Count calendar ends in 2012 misrepresented Maya history and culture."

And yet there was a massive 'hoo-ha' made about it. And that's just the now extinct Mayan religion.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 4th, 2017, 3:07 am 

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
mitchellmckain » June 4th, 2017, 5:16 am wrote:Even science and liberalism do not paint such a rosy picture of our immediate future if we do not radically change our behavior. The possible and even likely causes for total disaster are legion.

Indeed, but science is science - even if it were completely eradicated, it would return in the same form, something that all the various religions of the world would not do. Eschatological religions are founded in temporally and geographically localised anecdotes - mere hearsay. Science is based on universally repeatable observations of the practical physical world, no matter the time or place.

Yes... I quite agree that science must be given a superior epistemological status, i.e. objective evidence rather than subjective. So... what? The point is that they agree on this.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
But generally such doomsayer rhetoric whether scientific, liberal, or religious is typically geared toward motivating change rather than fatalistically accepting disaster -- otherwise what is the point?

An apocalypse to return all the souls to the kingdom of God, or Allah, or Brahman, and so on (depending on which religion one chooses). Is this not why the Biblical God flooded the earth and told Noah not to allow humans in their sinful form to continue living on the earth?

It was not a matter of human form but of the social order. We see in the events which immediately followed (Genesis 11) that what God objected to was a singular social order founded on Tubal Cain's philosophy of might makes right, in which there was no hope whatsoever for positive change in human society. It is also clear in the words of God at the time, that He was far from sure that saving us from ourselves was worth the price (i.e. the destruction of nature which was good for the sake of the human race who demonstrated a consistent habit for evil continuously).

Mankind divided may have brought the evil of war to the earth but it also brought the hope for change. Nations in competition with each other were now limited in how much they could destroy and waste human potential/resource for no good reason.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
As for economics, cults have long been exploiting apocalyptic predictions for getting people to give over all their money to them and this is unlikely to change very much either.

I am not talking about cults here, I am talking about mainstream religions that have apocalyptic prophecies built into them - for example:

Cult = religion. At the very least, the word "cult" represents religion at the fringes, whether Christians or some other religion.

King James Bible wrote:“That ye be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the LORD and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation” (2 Peter 3:2-4 ) “The LORD is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9) “For the LORD himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first:” (1 Thessalonians 4:16) “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8 )


King James Bible wrote:But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(Matthew 24:36)

Thus if any many says they know such a time then they are in conflict with the Bible.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:Of course there will be religious followers located along a broad scale - from fundamentalists all the way to agnostic, but who is to know where a follower is placed on that scale when one sits down to do business with them. As soon as an agnostic Capitalist discovers he is doing potentially long-term business with a religous person whose book prophecises an apocalypse of sorts, then will there not be additional future economic concerns when compared to doing business with an agnostic, for example?

The same goes for any other philosophy or position on subjective issues, including atheists. Perhaps they are planning to slaughter billions of people for the totally logical scientific reason that we need to reduce the surplus population which threatens the survival of the Earth and the human race.


Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:Do you remember the alleged Mayan apocalypse at the end of the 13th b'ak'tun (2012)? "The Earth would be destroyed by an asteroid, Nibiru, or some other interplanetary object; an alien invasion; or a supernova. Mayanist scholars stated that no extant classic Maya accounts forecasted impending doom, and that the idea that the Long Count calendar ends in 2012 misrepresented Maya history and culture."

And yet there was a massive 'hoo-ha' made about it. And that's just the now extinct Mayan religion.

Practices have changed as is the case in all religions but to say the religion is extinct is not quite correct.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 4th, 2017, 6:08 am 

mitchellmckain » June 4th, 2017, 4:07 pm wrote:Yes... I quite agree that science must be given a superior epistemological status, i.e. objective evidence rather than subjective. So... what? The point is that they agree on this.

"Even science and liberalism do not paint such a rosy picture of our immediate future if we do not radically change our behavior". Why wouldn't we change? We have the instinct to stay alive - to maintain the life process - just the same as any other organism. If science says there's a hole in the road ahead and thus a potential catastrophe looms, then we take evasive action. But an apocalypse brought on by a God is something entirely different.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
But generally such doomsayer rhetoric whether scientific, liberal, or religious is typically geared toward motivating change rather than fatalistically accepting disaster -- otherwise what is the point?

An apocalypse to return all the souls to the kingdom of God, or Allah, or Brahman, and so on (depending on which religion one chooses). Is this not why the Biblical God flooded the earth and told Noah not to allow humans in their sinful form to continue living on the earth?

It was not a matter of human form but of the social order.

I didn't say human form, but sinful form. As far as I understand the general Christian conception of the human soul in the body, the body is a sacred temple for the soul (which has divine spirit) (see 1 Cor 6:19) - a body which will be 'raised from the dead' and reunited with the soul on 'the last day'. The body and soul are 'good' because they were made by God, but Adam's original sin and the cultural repercussions handed down through the ages cause new humans to be born with that inheritance on their shoulders.

We see in the events which immediately followed (Genesis 11) that what God objected to was a singular social order founded on Tubal Cain's philosophy of might makes right, in which there was no hope whatsoever for positive change in human society. It is also clear in the words of God at the time, that He was far from sure that saving us from ourselves was worth the price (i.e. the destruction of nature which was good for the sake of the human race who demonstrated a consistent habit for evil continuously).

Mankind divided may have brought the evil of war to the earth but it also brought the hope for change. Nations in competition with each other were now limited in how much they could destroy and waste human potential/resource for no good reason.

The way I've seen it is that fallen angels 'sowed satan's seed' in mankind and Noah's family was the only group untainted, so God wanted to purify the Earth. It is this kind of behaviour that appears to be hinted at in Revelations and associated with the most major Christian Apocalypticist predictions.

King James Bible wrote:But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(Matthew 24:36)

Thus if any many says they know such a time then they are in conflict with the Bible.

That's easily countered by a Christian minister - no man knew before, but God can tell someone now.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:Of course there will be religious followers located along a broad scale - from fundamentalists all the way to agnostic, but who is to know where a follower is placed on that scale when one sits down to do business with them. As soon as an agnostic Capitalist discovers he is doing potentially long-term business with a religous person whose book prophecises an apocalypse of sorts, then will there not be additional future economic concerns when compared to doing business with an agnostic, for example?

The same goes for any other philosophy or position on subjective issues, including atheists. Perhaps they are planning to slaughter billions of people for the totally logical scientific reason that we need to reduce the surplus population which threatens the survival of the Earth and the human race.

You are saying that atheists ascribe to a dogma that requires them to believe that slaughtering billions of people is necessary? That doesn't seem logical. What is logical to me, however, is that if a religious believer has faith in prophecies, and their holy book includes a future apocalyptic prophecy, then they are very likely to believe in it, as do, apparently, many many religious believers throughout this world right at this moment.

The thing is, though, on a global economic scale, there is no point investing long-term if an apocalypse is on the agenda, and thus prophecized apocalypses are 'bad for business' outside of Apocalyptical belief circles. You seem to be hinting that such belief circles are negligibly small, but maybe we should find some independent statistics regarding that, then?
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 4th, 2017, 3:51 pm 

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 5:08 am wrote:Why wouldn't we change? We have the instinct to stay alive - to maintain the life process - just the same as any other organism. If science says there's a hole in the road ahead and thus a potential catastrophe looms, then we take evasive action. But an apocalypse brought on by a God is something entirely different.

Human beings have quite an impressive array of bad habits especially ones which emerge in social organization and tend to make communities rather short sighted and even self-destructive. Futhermore, human beings are quite capable of overruling instinct and do so frequently. Science has said the road ahead is as full of holes as swiss cheese and yet people very rarely take any notice even to slow down and take the most rudimentary of precautions.

You may believe in god(s) who visit mankind with disasters, but I do not. Nor do I believe in the namby-pamby god who caters to either the inconsistent demands of the childish and certainly not to cater to the rhetoric of those who seek to pigeon-hole god in their wishful ideology. I do, however, believe in a God who will take surgical action when necessary no matter how unpleasant it may be.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
It was not a matter of human form but of the social order.

I didn't say human form, but sinful form. As far as I understand the general Christian conception of the human soul in the body, the body is a sacred temple for the soul (which has divine spirit) (see 1 Cor 6:19) - a body which will be 'raised from the dead' and reunited with the soul on 'the last day'. The body and soul are 'good' because they were made by God, but Adam's original sin and the cultural repercussions handed down through the ages cause new humans to be born with that inheritance on their shoulders.

We do indeed inherit quite a plague of bad habits from our ancestors, and such habits are the most difficult things to change, for they tend to erode and destroy our very freedom of will itself. BUT that is why some governments and social structures work better than others. It is why we need checks and balances. And it is why it is better to have a multiplicity of nations and cultures in competition with each other rather than one monolithic social order and culture.

But this causes its own set of problems to be sure. And so we look with some hope that we might learn to protect a diversity of human thought and culture within a single system of government which protects the rights and liberty of all its citizens. But whether we have managed to achieve such a thing in any nation on Earth today is debatable. The USA, for example, seems to waver back and forth, like it cannot make up its mind.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
We see in the events which immediately followed (Genesis 11) that what God objected to was a singular social order founded on Tubal Cain's philosophy of might makes right, in which there was no hope whatsoever for positive change in human society. It is also clear in the words of God at the time, that He was far from sure that saving us from ourselves was worth the price (i.e. the destruction of nature which was good for the sake of the human race who demonstrated a consistent habit for evil continuously).

Mankind divided may have brought the evil of war to the earth but it also brought the hope for change. Nations in competition with each other were now limited in how much they could destroy and waste human potential/resource for no good reason.

The way I've seen it is that fallen angels 'sowed satan's seed' in mankind and Noah's family was the only group untainted, so God wanted to purify the Earth. It is this kind of behaviour that appears to be hinted at in Revelations and associated with the most major Christian Apocalypticist predictions.

Such may indeed have been your understanding at one time. But I could never have given such a thing the slightest creedence. Such absurd genetics-based distortions of the Bible, however convenient for racist groups, are not how this is understood by the majority.

The anti-science (anti-evolution) groups, which is the the minority of Christianity, may have a reason to read Genesis 6 as talking about (fallen) angles breeding with women and giving birth to fairy-tale giants (and corrupting some imagined purity of human biology). But others have no problem with reading "sons of god" consistent with the rest of the Bible as God's chosen people and thus understand that Genesis 6 is simply addressing the age-old question of who did Cain and Seth marry, which is simply the daughters of all those other human beings out there. And what they gave birth to were simply the leaders of human civilization, giants among men -- "men of reknown" as it says.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
King James Bible wrote:But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(Matthew 24:36)

Thus if any any says they know such a time then they are in conflict with the Bible.

That's easily countered by a Christian minister - no man knew before, but God can tell someone now.

Yes and so also do politicians and car salesman use rhetoric to turn every kind of truth upside-down in order to get what they want from people. The solution isn't to abolish governments, cars, or religion but to exercise caution when people are selling you on things like this.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:
The same goes for any other philosophy or position on subjective issues, including atheists. Perhaps they are planning to slaughter billions of people for the totally logical scientific reason that we need to reduce the surplus population which threatens the survival of the Earth and the human race.

You are saying that atheists ascribe to a dogma that requires them to believe that slaughtering billions of people is necessary? That doesn't seem logical. What is logical to me, however, is that if a religious believer has faith in prophecies, and their holy book includes a future apocalyptic prophecy, then they are very likely to believe in it, as do, apparently, many many religious believers throughout this world right at this moment.

I have personally seen and history demonstrates that atheists are just as capable of believing in dogma to the point of slaughtering 100 million people. No... I am not saying that atheism is a dogma no more than religion and Christianity is a dogma -- only that no subjective beliefs make human beings immune to this tendency to let dogma run roughshod over human lives. So also does it show that they are just as capable of revering bad books and making prophecies (such as the Communist Manifesto and The God Delusion).

People really need to step back from their my-side bias long enough to see that whatever their subjective beliefs about things where there is no objective evidence either way, people are prone to the same bad habits and this really shouldn't be whitewashed with "team spirit."

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:The thing is, though, on a global economic scale, there is no point investing long-term if an apocalypse is on the agenda, and thus prophesied apocalypses are 'bad for business' outside of Apocalyptical belief circles.

Slaughtering the "capitalists" based on flawed economic prophesies isn't very good for business either.

Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote: You seem to be hinting that such belief circles are negligibly small, but maybe we should find some independent statistics regarding that, then?

??? Where did I do that? I don't even know what counts as negligible since even one lunatic can use modern weapons to kill huge numbers of people. Whether Nazism, militant Islam, Marxism, boneheaded versions of Xtianity, Maoism, Malthusianism, or something else irrational militant ideologies of all kinds have shown themselves quite capable of gathering significant numbers of adherents and being the cause of a great deal of death, suffering and destruction.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 4th, 2017, 10:05 pm 

Oh and let's not leave out the far east where the notorious Om cult (Aum Shinrikyo) of Japan is an example of an apocalyptic cult which used Sarin and cyanide gases in attacks on people in a residential area and in the Tokyo subway system.

P.S. I was in Japan at the time so this news got my attention unlike most other people.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 3:22 am 

mitchellmckain » June 5th, 2017, 4:51 am wrote:
Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 5:08 am wrote:
Mossling » June 4th, 2017, 12:46 am wrote:The thing is, though, on a global economic scale, there is no point investing long-term if an apocalypse is on the agenda, and thus prophesied apocalypses are 'bad for business' outside of Apocalyptical belief circles.

Slaughtering the "capitalists" based on flawed economic prophesies isn't very good for business either.

And yet capitalist-slaughtering is not in any mainstream, let alone globally popular, atheist publication that I'm aware of. So your argument seems illogical.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 6th, 2017, 10:03 am 

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 2:22 am wrote:
mitchellmckain » June 5th, 2017, 4:51 am wrote:Slaughtering the "capitalists" based on flawed economic prophesies isn't very good for business either.

And yet capitalist-slaughtering is not in any mainstream, let alone globally popular, atheist publication that I'm aware of. So your argument seems illogical.


An ideology does not slaughter 100 million people without becoming a globally popular movement. It did in fact consume nearly half the world -- and thus its terrible cost in human life. And the point was not that communism is to be identified with atheism any more than Southern Baptists should be identified with Christianity (however much those groups may have wished the world to make such an identification). The point is, as I said, ...

no subjective beliefs make human beings immune to this tendency to let dogma run roughshod over human lives. So also does it show that they (atheists) are just as capable of revering bad books and making (bad) prophecies


The fact that the world can now see in retrospect that it is all extremely stupid and wasteful doesn't change any of this in the slightest. I certainly hope that the world will eventually come to view groups in Christianity (including pseudo-christian groups like the JW's ) pushing apocalyptic extremism with the same kind of scorn and distaste.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 10:55 am 

mitchellmckain » June 6th, 2017, 11:03 pm wrote:...the point was not that communism is to be identified with atheism any more than Southern Baptists should be identified with Christianity (however much those groups may have wished the world to make such an identification

I don't think an atheist such as Richard Dawkins is concerned with communist literature at all, however I have a pretty strong feeling that all Southern Baptists are interested in the Christian Bible. Again, it seems that your argument is illogical here.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 6th, 2017, 11:35 am 

Mossling » June 6th, 2017, 9:55 am wrote:
mitchellmckain » June 6th, 2017, 11:03 pm wrote:...the point was not that communism is to be identified with atheism any more than Southern Baptists should be identified with Christianity (however much those groups may have wished the world to make such an identification

I don't think an atheist such as Richard Dawkins is concerned with communist literature at all, however I have a pretty strong feeling that all Southern Baptists are interested in the Christian Bible. Again, it seems that your argument is illogical here.


You may be imagining an argument that is indeed illogical, for I cannot see any applicable logic to what I have said in this objection you making here. I have made no implication of any connection between Dawkins and communist literature. Nevertheless, both are atheist and both have made stupid prophecies and both have produced books which some atheists at some time have revered . Neither define atheism, of course. And so no implication is made that being atheist means one either holds these books in high esteem or believes their prophecies, any more than being a Christian means that one will support apocalyptic extremes either. I have already shown you the Biblical basis most Christians have for not supporting this (Matthew 24) as well as a general attitude in the Bible (for which the book of Jonah can be taken as representative) which sees apocalyptic warnings as a call for change rather than some kind of fatalistic inevitability -- the SAME as similar warnings of doom in science and liberalism.

But... go ahead and whitewash your own group with my-side bias and team spirit if you must. It is enough for me that others reading this thread will understand that neither atheist nor Christian must necessarily indulge in this kind of thing.

...

Ok, I in trying to fathom what argument you are imagining, I have come up with this. Are atheism and Christianity entirely parallel with regards to prophecy and apocalyptic thought? No, of course they are not. Eschatology, although I personally don't have much use for most of it, occupies a position which is considerably more accepted in Christian thought than are the prophecies and books of Marx and Dawkins accepted in atheism. But comparing a most general philosophical position such as atheism to a particular religion is responsible for most of this inequity. Atheism should properly be compared to THEISM not Christianity. And THEN this difference vanishes entirely. For no, theism in general does not imply any beliefs in particular books or prophecies.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 6th, 2017, 9:49 pm 

mitchellmckain » June 7th, 2017, 12:35 am wrote:Are atheism and Christianity entirely parallel with regards to prophecy and apocalyptic thought? No, of course they are not. Eschatology, although I personally don't have much use for most of it, occupies a position which is considerably more accepted in Christian thought than are the prophecies and books of Marx and Dawkins accepted in atheism. But comparing a most general philosophical position such as atheism to a particular religion is responsible for most of this inequity. Atheism should properly be compared to THEISM not Christianity. And THEN this difference vanishes entirely. For no, theism in general does not imply any beliefs in particular books or prophecies.

Thank you. However, this thread is concerned with an aspect of theism - apocalypticsm, and even though one could make the same argument as that put forward in the OP - that apocalypticsm is not good for long-term business investment outside of shared apocalypticist views within theism, I see no need to restrict it to theism.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby mitchellmckain on June 7th, 2017, 2:22 pm 

And yet the truth is that mainstream groups like the Southern Baptists continue to do business just fine no matter what their theological position may be in eschatology. Perhaps this is just a reason to doubt their sincerity and logical consistency in their religion... or maybe (whether they admit it or not) they just take all that stuff with a grain of salt for the reasons I have already stated and your characterization only describes vocal extremists after all.

On the other hand, I might hesitate to conduct business with them just as much as you, for their behavior in politics, at the very least, doesn't look entirely rational to me.
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Re: Apocalypticism and Broader Global Economics

Postby Mossling on June 7th, 2017, 7:14 pm 

See OP - "...as the global community learn more about their potential business partners' deeper cultural beliefs"
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