NLs versus MOL

Theology, Religious Studies, religion, god, faith and other topics of a spiritual nature.

NLs versus MOL

Postby hyksos on May 8th, 2018, 5:09 pm 

NLs versus MOL

Neutral Facts versus the Meaning of Life.

In this thread I will compare a list of neutral facts about the world as augmentations and enhancements to a discussion about the Meaning of Life. The meaning of life here is not about biology or biochemistry or genetics. Rather I refer to a life as "a person's life". The "meaning" would not be about semantics of the word life , but instead refers to the ultimate significance of a person's life.

In chapter 2 of the book, Reasonable Faith , William Lane Craig writes :

Thus, if there is no God, then life itself becomes meaningless. Man and the universe are without ultimate significance.


The reader who desires more elaboration on Craig and meaning of a person's life is directed to this thread : viewtopic.php?f=46&t=34132
User avatar
hyksos
Active Member
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: 28 Nov 2014


Re: NLs versus MOL

Postby hyksos on May 8th, 2018, 7:24 pm 

There is a of "meaning of life" that would be fit for a general TV audience and would articulate with Sunday evening church Bible study. That kind of hokey-pokey version of life is very unlikely to be true under the weight of deeper consideration. The goal of this list is not to argue that human life is meaningless, but instead show that the question of the meaning is far more complex than anyone would imagine on first glance -- whether that glance be made from church pews with a tie on, or from a eastern-spiritualist hippy at Burning Man. The goal is not to be rebellious against religion, but to be honest with the neutrality of facts. When even neutral facts are suspect, this is invariably an indication that there is something profoundly dishonest about one's ideology. This is not a character flaw ... all of civilization is a form of collective dishonesty.

Let's begin.

  • Bread mold contains the same DNA as in your cells. That fungal life form does not have special bread-mold DNA nor do we have special human DNA. The DNA in bread mold is identical to the DNA in your body down to the atom. Carbon for carbon. Oxygen for oxygen. The only difference between them is that the base pairs are in a different sequence. You know those green flies that get on trash and lay eggs that grow into maggots? Those maggots have the same DNA in their bodies as you do -- down. to. the. atom. They use DNA for genetic information, and so do we.
  • Blood and bones and exposed veins make for repulsive imagery. A few people in the population are scared by the sight of blood. Skeletons are skulls universally used in artwork to be gauche and macabre. There is a skeleton sitting in the chair with you. You carry it around all day. There are intestines, blood, veins and bones inside us all day, a centimeter below the skin. We are in direct proximity to disgusting body fluids all day long.
    Image

    This is a link of exposed tendons in a hand. This should be viewed with the perspective of a surgeon or doctor.

    Code: Select all
    http://i.imgur.com/IWZBkiC.gif


  • I find the idea of my parents having sex to be repulsive, and it is something I think we all try to keep out of our minds. But if your parents had not sex, you would not be here. Keep the fact at arm's length as frequently as possible -- ultimately your existence on the planet depends on your parents having had sex.
  • Niels deGrasse-Tyson has remarked on whether the human body appears to be a product of evolution, or the embodiment of the careful design of a creator. He points at the distance between the anus and the vagina as a profound design flaw. He gets more colorful with his words -- "It would be like designing a city plan such that the sewer runs directly through a theme park."
  • Regards the MOL, dG-T is being coy. It goes without saying that the anus should be universally repulsive as a body part -- perhaps even for "good evolutionary reasons". One might presume that men's attraction to the anus is some sort of rare perversion at the boundaries of fetishistic pornography. The internet has shown us in flying color that this is false. There are streaming camshow websites operating right now as you read these words. The female performers there put things in that orifice, (various kinds of dildos) that are likened unto hoses the size of my wrist. I have noted that the majority of them do this. That is to say, the women who don't like things up there are in the minority.
  • Not working well as a bullet point. Human beings don't require a sense of safety or trust to complete a sex act. You can have sex with a stranger, despite huge risk, and this likely goes on at dangerous rates all over the world. Disgust of bodily fluids are not an impediment to the human libido, but neither is fear. Nor rational fear from actual dangers.
  • Men's sex organs can function when the man is not conscious. While extremely rare, it is well within biological plausibility.
  • Despite the claims of some republican senators, humans can become pregnant from a rape. In the situation of a rape, the human body does not have a quote, "...way of shutting that whole thing down".

The bullet points work together much better in summary. I do think these points are saddening.. shocking. Nevertheless they should be taken into account when considering the meaning of life vis-a-vis William Lane Craig. I cannot post a direct link of a video clip of a person's hand with the skin removed showing their tendons because it would violate "common standards of decency" on this forum. Tendons moving over bone is universally disgusting, even though tendons move over my hand bones as I type these very words.


I could visit a brothel in Kolkata and complete a sex act with a prostitute there. Someone whom I've never met and have no reason to trust. Whether robbed or murdered, the clientele take the risk.

She could possibly transmit HIV to me... (and not necessarily with contact with the vagina per se. The reader will be asked to fill in the gaps here.). My ejaculate would contain sperm cells carrying DNA molecules which are identical to the DNA found in bread mold .... bread mold that is growing in a bin outside in the street.


We all sit here tonight talking at the diner because our parents had sex. Someone could cut their finger off and their heartbeat would intermittently squirt blood onto the table from an artery. We would all vacate the premises and be unable to eat the rest of the night because blood is disgusting. Except it somehow becomes 'not disgusting' when under the skin all day.

We are in an uncomfortable proximity to disgusting things at all hours because we are made out of the very body that disgusts us. This must be considered when considering the meaning of life. Leaving it out completely would be a profound form of self-delusion.

I think about who I am.. then given teh above neutral facts about my nature, I think about what I am.

Evangelism -- in particular American christian evangelism --- is really a form of training. The proselytizer-pastor is basically teaching you how to engage in a form of self-delusion. A kind of linguistic make-believe about what you really are. I cannot post video clips of exposed tendons pulled over the bones in a human hand, even though that is happening in your hand right now. That is a fact. A certain kind of fact : A Neutral Fact.

(Perhaps) you have some prebaked desire to view yourself through a particular existentialist viewpoint. You hope that you are a pure angelic being made of pure light that is "trapped in a body" like a soul trapped in a Pinocchio doll. There's nothing wrong with such existential claims on logical grounds.. but how is this squared against the the sexual attraction to the more disgusting body parts? These questions demand deeper reflection. And if not, the topic deteriorates into a suppression of neutral facts.

The proselytizer won't have you try to square these contrasting themes against facts because pastors are not teaching how to self-reflect, but to self-delude. It comes down to a question of : what are you ? What am I? really ..?

The delusion-process of evangelism , at base, is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. A person selectively removes the parts of themselves they do not like or are unfitting to "Civilized conversation" and then pretend for a short temporary spate of time that the parts of themselves which they do like are the "Real me" as if the pure light of trapped soul shines over the repressed portions. In sanitized , moderated "civilized" venues, you can sneak around performing these tricks of sophistry and go largely unnoticed.

I would say in the vast majority of cases, the religious evangelizer will pre-select a social venue in advanced preparation -- with foreknowledge that they will likely not be exposed or challenged. "Well is this social venue a nice place for the family where I can put my tie on and talk about Jesus? Why yes.. I detect that it is. This venue will make a fine addition to my selected targets for Evangelism. Nobody here will challenge me. The make-believe will proceed smoothly. "

If one were ever to come really face-to-face with the neutral facts. Prayer to an almighty ghost would go rather differently. It would not be praise. It would be a demand for answers. What is the deal with the DNA in the bread mold? I mean, can't you give humans special Humans-Only DNA as demonstration of your majesty and grace? But no. We get the same DNA in maggots? What is you are trying to tell us by doing that? You think we are maggots? I want answers and I want them now.

One would look at what they are, and instead prayer would be more like turning one's head to the sky to ask :

"What is this? Some kind of sick cosmic joke on your part?"

An honest person standing at the "Pearly Gates" would be asking those words in pink. Not a self-deluded person. An honest one. It would be the first thing out of their mouth.
User avatar
hyksos
Active Member
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: 28 Nov 2014


Re: NLs versus MOL

Postby Braininvat on May 9th, 2018, 1:17 pm 

The anus may be disgusting, but you seem to have gotten yours to produce tons of tedious lecture on the problems of dualism and how people like to be kinky. And you create silly and improbable dialogs on DNA. I think most people who have any knowledge of DNA understand that our DNA differs from that of mold or maggots, not in its constituent molecules, but in its coding and total number of strands.

You hope that you are a pure angelic being made of pure light that is "trapped in a body" like a soul trapped in a Pinocchio doll.


Who have you met at SPCF who thinks this way??

Oh, and thanks for the digression on dildos and such. None of us here at the Shaker hermitage had heard tell of such things.
User avatar
Braininvat
Forum Administrator
 
Posts: 6564
Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Black Hills


Re: NLs versus MOL

Postby hyksos on May 12th, 2018, 5:23 pm 

braininvat,

"While the human body has disgusting portions, most of them are relegated to certain regions of the body. We sophisticated and civilized humans have in-built qualities to avoid those bodily regions during sexual activity."

Except we totally don't. We are drawn to them like moths to porch light.

"Right. But that's only a fetish that some men have. Adult entertainers will do it to titillate a male audience, but it's dirty and painful."

Equally false.

If homo sapiens are the products of expressed design by a Creator deity, then THIS is what the creator deity created. This is what the Creator created. If A then B.

If this were not ironic enough, the Creator double down. He had our traits transmitted and our cells built by following instructions encoded in DNA. The same DNA molecule found (for example) in photosynthetic bacteria in the oceans. The same molecule used in the same way by those green flies that get on trash, that are drawn to animal dung and rotting carcass with equal measure.
Image

The Creator could not be bothered with coming up with a Special Human DNA molecule, (with silicon replaced for carbon , or the hydrogens are double-bonded to nitrogen in peculiar ways). No. He just recycled the same DNA molecule found in maggots and fungus. The same molecule found in grass and insects and trees and jellyfish. If we are the products of creative acts of design, then this is what the Creator created. If A, then B.

What exactly is the religious claim now? Do the religious attribute anal sex and our atom-for-atom blow-fly DNA to temporary design flaws on the part of the Creator?

Are these temporary design flaws of the Creator somehow remedied when the unadulterated pure soul "ascends from the body" ?
User avatar
hyksos
Active Member
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: 28 Nov 2014


Re: NLs versus MOL

Postby hyksos on May 12th, 2018, 5:54 pm 

Braininvat » May 9th, 2018, 9:17 pm wrote:Oh, and thanks for the digression on dildos and such. None of us here at the Shaker hermitage had heard tell of such things.

I had an opportunity to use the phrase "likened unto" with "dildo" in the same sentence. I couldn't pass this up.
User avatar
hyksos
Active Member
 
Posts: 1319
Joined: 28 Nov 2014



Return to Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests