Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

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Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on March 16th, 2014, 3:44 pm 

Nowadays, we find many channels and websites presenting porno, and many many people enjoying them, while many others strongly resist them?

What's the ethics' view on this phenomenon?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby TheVat on March 16th, 2014, 3:53 pm 

I think porn, in terms of private individuals enjoying themselves, would really fall more in the category of etiquette than ethics. As long as you aren't watching something distracting on a library computer where I can see it (or hear the attendant grunting noises, etc.), I can find no ethical basis on which to address it.

If there is some larger question here, i.e. is watching porn somehow subverting people seeking genuine romantic love or connecting with others in various ways, then you should ask that. Otherwise, as you've presented it, it just doesn't seem like an ethical issue.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on March 17th, 2014, 10:39 am 

Braininvat wrote:If there is some larger question here, i.e. is watching porn somehow subverting people seeking genuine romantic love or connecting with others in various ways, then you should ask that. Otherwise, as you've presented it, it just doesn't seem like an ethical issue.

Well, consider that issue is also asked here, what would be your position on such a thing?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby TheVat on March 17th, 2014, 7:27 pm 

It's your thread, Hendrick. The way philosophers work is you advance a position, an essay or micro-essay if you will, and then the rest come along and poke and prod it, test its assumptions, check its definitions, and so on.

I hate to sound cynical but I think you need to sort of "sell" a line of inquiry here, to get people interested. And the way to do that is, for better or for worse, to be an opinionated bastard. Make a splash. Take a stand. Tell us that porn is eroding civilization and will cause complete anarchy by 2045 - roving bandits will travel the roads in ethanol-fueled cars, themselves fueled by ethanol and lust. All jokes aside, try to state a position and see where it goes.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 1st, 2014, 11:43 am 

Braininvat
Never, ever think that I don't have or even have lost my position, and I don't need others' attention, 'cause they want to know and I have the knowledge, Also, one day I'll clarify the subject most thoroughly.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 1st, 2014, 8:40 pm 

I basically agree with Braininvat; it's only a matter of etiquette.

There are things that can go wrong with it. One of my best friends' marriages broke down because her husband was experiencing desensitisation and she couldn't meet the sadomasochistic needs he was developing; but I think that's rather a problem with the fact he was watching excessive amounts of pornography behind her back and then insisting on carrying out his disturbing fetishes in real life with his loving wife, than with pornography itself. Like any drug it has to be used moderately and responsibly.

I also think it doesn't get enough credit from the prurient crowd for, it seems, causing a decline in rape.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 2nd, 2014, 12:45 pm 

If we believe in absolute morality we must believe pornography is wrong. But why?
- Pornography provides abstract sexual enjoyment, which slowly destroys both body and soul of human. Imagine you're given a very delicious but poisonous dish of food. Will you eat it and finish your life?
While poisonous food only can destroy one person, sexual immoralities including pornography have the potential destroys the whole community.
And about it being an etiquette, I bring you the famous example of SHIP.
Imagine a community is aboard a ship, the someone starts digging the place he has sat on. People ask him "why do you want to drown all of us?" He answers "I don't intend to drown you, it's my place and I have the right to do everything I want."

Let's compare the example with this matter.
We as members of communities have unseen but strong bonds to be bound with each other. Now we see someone perverting and we know him to see it's forfeiture. We can let him do as many communities don't care about the ones committing suicide. But what If their forfeiture is ours? What if we're drowned with them? Thus must't we fight these perversions at least for our own sake?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 2nd, 2014, 6:48 pm 

Hendrick Laursen » April 2nd, 2014, 5:45 pm wrote:If we believe in absolute morality we must believe pornography is wrong. But why?
- Pornography provides abstract sexual enjoyment, which slowly destroys both body and soul of human.

Any evidence for your assertion?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 2nd, 2014, 8:00 pm 

Hi all,

I agree with Lomax.

Hendrick Laursen wrote:Pornography provides abstract sexual enjoyment, which slowly destroys both body and soul of human.

That's pure Bull Pucky. I have been enjoying Porn over 25 years and I'm one of the most Moral People I know. I don't like Violent Porn.. but it's probably no more bad than any other depicted Violence. The primary danger is being made "Insensitive" to Violence. Is it possible to become "Insensitive" to Sex? That actually might be a good thing..lol.

Anyway, I work with many people that are Strong Christians and they would eliminate Porn if they had the power. Yet they all Lie, Cheat and Steal on a daily basis. I don't do any of these things. So I know for a Living Fact that Religion has no claims to promoting practical Morality.

The Meese Commission was a perfect example of what happens when you let a bunch of idiots with an agenda study the effects of Porn on a Society. That commission was a perfect example of why we need the constitution to protect us from zealots.

Meese Report:
http://www.webcitation.org/5zxNbOev8

President's Commission on Obscenity and Pornography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President%27s_Commission_on_Obscenity_and_Pornography

The latter, and many Reports before, all conclude that Normal Porn has no ill effects on a society and in some cases enhanced relationships in married couples and provided an escape mechanism for elements of society that otherwise could be dangerous.

Don't get me started on all the damages foisted upon Societies from Religious Quarters. Teen pregnancy is still a major issue here and largely because parents can't talk openly about sex with their kids. Until we become comfortable with our sexuality, we will always be screwed up.

Regards,
Dave :^)

Edits: Correct misspellings not caught in normal spell checker.
Last edited by Dave_Oblad on April 2nd, 2014, 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby safeleo on April 4th, 2014, 1:35 pm 

I think it's up to people. It's like watching violent movies, you have to understand that there are boundaries in real life. As long as you can keep the two things separate, it's fine.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 5th, 2014, 2:05 am 

Pornography is a coin with two sides.

The one side is the viewer but the other one is the industry, the profiteers and the actors. Sure the actors consent and get paid, but they are often at a young adult age.

But there is a good chance their actions will haunt them for the rest of their life.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby TheVat on April 5th, 2014, 11:02 am 

Venus, you advance a more interesting issue regarding the value of porn. At one end (no pun intended), you have the user and whatever they derive from porn. Obviously, society formerly had far less pornographic material and people derived their stimulation from the glimpse of a bare ankle and the ensuing "porn in their head." Or the sight of an erotic statue. The libido always finds a way, so it's not as if civilization would collapse without porn. At the other end, you have what Venus describes "the industry, the profiteers and the actors." On the one hand (again, NPI), there is the issue of free choice and artistic freedom, on the other, there is the potential for exploitation of minors and young adults who lack a clear sense of the effect such a job choice might have on their future careers and general self-esteem and so on. I don't have a good answer to this - are there ways to promote less exploitation and related problems (aside from everyone just not consuming porn)? What can the consumer do - it's not unlike the consumer who wants to buy fish not caught with driftnets (hurts dolphins), or fair-trade coffee.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 5th, 2014, 11:24 am 

What's the Good of the Pornography?
As much as I know, Human was given the reproductive system to continue his line. No to spend his life only enjoying this gift.
I agree with Venus in this fact that it has two faces. But isn't it's dark face much more harmful than it's profiting side?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 5th, 2014, 6:53 pm 

Hi all,

Venus wrote:But there is a good chance their actions will haunt them for the rest of their life.

Braininvat wrote:..young adults who lack a clear sense of the effect such a job choice might have on their future careers and general self-esteem and so on.

Hendrick Laursen wrote:But isn't it's dark face much more harmful than it's profiting side?

Three good examples from the last three posts on what is wrong with Porn. It's not the Porn itself, it the attitude of society that makes Porn wrong. And where did this attitude come from I ask?

People like Kirk Cameron, born again Christian, that exploit their power and position in the public eye and trash the life of co-star Julie McCullough for daring to appear as a Playboy Centerfold. I know three people personally that became Born Again Christians. All three ended up doing jail time within 10 years for sex related crimes such as rape(1), child molesting(2). Why?

I think HL summed it up with:
Hendrick Laursen wrote:What's the Good of the Pornography? As much as I know, Human was given the reproductive system to continue his line. No to spend his life only enjoying this gift.

Yes.. Teach men it's a sin to spill their seed (masturbation) or have sex outside of wedlock, when so many have no recourse to release themselves from the sex drive nature instilled in each of us. Real smart strategy.. leading to rape, molested choir boys and pregnant Nuns that disappear for extended sabbaticals on occasion. You can't repress the Sex drive and not pay a heavy price. Some just don't seem to get that.

The formula is quite basic: Religion => Sexual Repression => Sexual Perversion.

Anyway, Society manufactured this (so-called) Disease and then proceeds to make things worse by trying to cure it. You can see this in the top 3 quotes I listed. The problem isn't the Porn, it's the irrational beliefs people have been indoctrinated with all their lives. My own Mom is a good example. She loved Anne Hathaway until she saw her in "Sex, Drugs and Lies", where Anne appears nude quite a bit. Mom said: "Well.. there goes another promising career down the toilet." The problem is not with Anne, but rather people like my own mother who have been brainwashed by a Prurient Society. They are the disease and not people like Anne.

I assume most know that Studio Porn has almost gone bust due to rampant Internet Porn? A huge amount of the Internet Porn is now by Private Females (and Males) that are broadcasting from their homes. Only requires some software, Camera/Mic, internet connection and a gateway provider. Also a company to handle billing customers for a small percentage of the take. There are thousands to choose from. Back 8 years ago, I joined a popular site like this @ $25 per month. The actress works 1 hour, two nights a week, putting on her show. She had at one time over 1000 customers per show. You do the Math. That's about $25,000.00 per month for 8 hours of work, which she enjoyed. She bought herself and her Mom each Houses and saved to go to college, where she is now. So who was exploiting whom?

Granted, today the landscape has changed and there is stiff competition..lol. One girl is lucky to have a regular audience of 25-50 people.

Are they helping or hurting Society. Depends on who you ask.

Most are like me, enjoy the show and get a release from sexual tension & repression. I personally would prefer to know some ugly troll is getting satisfied from watching (etc) his computer screen than know he is out on the street stalking his next rape victim.

But again.. that's just my personal Opinion.

Best wishes all,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 5th, 2014, 8:11 pm 

It's maybe worth distinguishing between "amateur" and "professional" pornography because each will have different pros and cons. For instance amateur pornography isn't industry-driven, it's produced voluntarily and probably therefore doesn't fall under the "exploitation" bracket.

I'd also urge against double-standards - I didn't want to have to work in warehouses for three years performing hard manual labour, and it may well unwittingly have damaged my CV because the agency kept moving me from warehouse to warehouse, which at a glance makes it look like I couldn't hold down a job. The employers probably made a lot more money from me than I made from myself. Exploitation exists in all quarters, and we don't argue for shutting down the freight and storage industries on these grounds. This despite the fact they haven't been demonstrated to correlate inversely with rape.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 6th, 2014, 4:31 am 

Well, another side of this topic.
Let me assert another example.
You see a very fat person, eating very oily Food. And think he has also a very bad heart. And if we tell him don't, he answers "None of your business!", We see he is killing himself, but he himself prevents us from acting, what are we to do?
PS: I'll explain the relation of this to the main topic later.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 6th, 2014, 4:45 am 

Hendrick Laursen » April 6th, 2014, 9:31 am wrote:Well, another side of this topic.
Let me assert another example.
You see a very fat person, eating very oily Food. And think he has also a very bad heart. And if we tell him don't, he answers "None of your business!", We see he is killing himself, but he himself prevents us from acting, what are we to do?
PS: I'll explain the relation of this to the main topic later.

Good question, and a nice example of the issue of parental-style ethics. However, I must say that I think he is right: if he willingly chooses hedonism over health, that is none of my business. I know many such people (as I'm sure we all do) but I don't consider it my position to interfere.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 6th, 2014, 5:11 am 

Hi HL,

You answered yourself. It is "None of Your Business!" If this man wants to risk his life eating oily foods, then who gave you the right to deny him? How far will you go in protecting this man from himself? Will you forbid him to drive a car because so many die in auto accidents? Will you tell him he can't swim because so many drown every year? Will you bubble wrap his house so he can't trip and hurt himself? This path is a slippery slope my friend. And for what?

Do you think it better that he live to be a hundred years old and becomes bed bound.. tied to machines to keep his life going? I want to get the most out of life. I want to try almost everything. I want to actually Live the life I have and I wish to enjoy every minute of it. I don't want to be strapped in a chair for my whole life with robots waiting on me, just to protect myself from myself.

If this guys death will have a negative impact on his family, then that is a matter best left to him and his wife. If she can't stop him from going mountain climbing, then I hope she had the sense to see she has adequate insurance to cover his loss, if that should happen. But whether he chooses to eat fatty foods or go skydiving.. it is his life and we must respect that.

You are talking about forced repression on a society in the name of safety. Society will only take so much repression before it snaps and we have a blood bath. History has taught us this many times. Learn from it!

Someday we may discover Religion is more dangerous than Porn to a Society. Do you want Religion Banned and made into a criminal activity? It could happen. You would be better served to defend human rights than seek to clamp down on those that you don't agree with, because that mind-set could put you in the position of being the next target of your own shared zeal to protect society from itself.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby safeleo on April 6th, 2014, 5:16 am 

I also just want to say that repressing natural urges might very well turn out to be hazardous. Sex is natural, and people shouldn't be taught to feel bad about themselves for having certain urges.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 6th, 2014, 6:09 am 

Hello Mr. Oblad & All others.
Thanks for your reply, My blood's boiling. (I'm Joking :) )
Well, it seems we haven't got the same end of the stick.
I'm pointing with my finger at the moon and you're just looking at my finger!
Imagine this so-called man is a little younger, for example is your own son.
Would you let him drink Alcoholics to the point that he's out of his wits.
Would you surrender upon his sentence "None of your business, Dad!"?!
Would you be happy to present the society with an alcoholic - but with a free will?
What if he doesn't see what's his good?
Don't you feel responsibility on him?

An infant wants to enter everything he sees in his mouth mistaking 'em with food.
Would you let an infant enter a knife in his mouth? or a poisonous food?
Or would you let him play with meat-grinder, grinding his fingers with it?
Wouldn't he ask you, when is a grown up adult, why didn't you stop me?
Won't you blame yourself to have done?

It'd sound a little pragmatic, but Can we leave anyone on himself?
Then, why we've made societies?
If that was right then it would be better to live completely apart and do as we wished.
I think it's better to rewrite my SHIP example
Imagine the society is a ship, and everyone has a seat. If someone suddenly starts digging his place, will we ignore him? Will we soothe down when we hear him saying "MY OWN PLACE, I'VE PAID FOR IT AND NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS." When we see he's going to drown all of us? Is his declaration true? Aren't all we individuals strongly bound with unseen threads with the other ones?

Someone has kleptomania, and thinks stealing is good. We, regular people know he has the mania, but he thinks we have the mania not to know stealing as a right deed. Would stopping him be right? or Wrong?
Certainly we must stop him, even if he says "None of your business".





Dave_Oblad wrote:....
Someday we may discover Religion is more dangerous than Porn to a Society. Do you want Religion Banned and made into a criminal activity? It could happen. You would be better served to defend human rights than seek to clamp down on those that you don't agree with, because that mind-set could put you in the position of being the next target of your own shared zeal to protect society from itself.
....
Dave :^)


It seems like this, the first reason that human wears clothes is to cover him. When time goes and clothes change in a way that don't cover him then it's better to think again on the idea that wearing clothes is a good idea.
Like that, fundamentally, religion is founded to guide human towards salvation. When we perverse from our main goal and destiny, then why to obey the religion?

What's the fundamental reason of all these porno topic? I myself -as the one mentioned the topic - look forward to a better society. If we conclude that porn-having society is better than porn-less one, I'll certainly surrender.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 6th, 2014, 8:41 am 

Hendrick Laursen » April 6th, 2014, 11:09 am wrote:Imagine this so-called man is a little younger, for example is your own son.
Would you let him drink Alcoholics to the point that he's out of his wits.
Would you surrender upon his sentence "None of your business, Dad!"?!
Would you be happy to present the society with an alcoholic - but with a free will?
What if he doesn't see what's his good?
Don't you feel responsibility on him?

Well I think there are a couple of differences here. Supposing my son was still a child then I do have legal and moral responsibility for him; society functions on the assumption that children aren't yet wise or well-informed enough to make their own decisions. There's some arbitariness to the age-lines we draw but I also think they have to be respected: it is infuriating to be imposed upon.

The other issue is that you're talking about an addict, as opposed to a regular user. As I said there are demonstrable risks with porn addiction, but that's no reason to condemn moderate use.

Since a couple of people have made comparisons between pornography and religion, I'll throw in my two cents and say I agree with safeleo that denial of a natural urge is a dangerous thing. We know that states with legalised pornography experience a decline in rape, and we know that the Catholic church's policy of celibacy leads to the opposite. Extreme hedonism may be harmful but it has nothing on extreme puritanism.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Hendrick Laursen on April 8th, 2014, 4:43 am 

I agree with both lomax and safeleo that only an incomplete religion eliminates all sex-stuff from the lives of it's followers. but again, the matter is not to fight sex. it is to avoid misusing it.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 8th, 2014, 10:02 am 

Incidentally I'm reading David Foster Wallace's Consider the Lobster, and the opening essay Big Red Son is a report of the professional pornography industry in the late 1990s. He takes a break from his usual wry wit to collate some poignant (albeit anecdotal) facts:

David Foster Wallace wrote:Thirty-four-year-old porn actor Cal Jammer killed himself in 1995. Starlets Shauna Grant, Nancy Kelly, Alex Jordan, and Savannah have all killed themselves in the last decade. Savannah and Jordan received AVN's Best New Starlet awards in 1991 and 1992, respectively. Savannah killed herself after getting mildly disfigured in a car accident. Alex Jordan is famous for having addressed her suicide note to her pet bird. Crewman and performer Israel Gonzalez killed himself at a porn company warehouse in 1997.

An LA-based support group called PAW (=Protecting Adult Welfare) runs a 24-hour crisis line for people in the adult industry. A fundraiser for PAW was held at a Mission Hills CA bowling alley last November. It was a nude bowling tournament. Dozens of starlets agreed to take part. Two or three hundred adult-video fans showed up and paid to watch them bowl naked. No production companies or their executives participated or gave money. The fundraiser took in $6,000, which is slightly less than two one-millionths of porn's yearly gross.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby TheVat on April 8th, 2014, 10:41 am 

What I'm getting from these many thoughtful postings is that porn (and religion, for that matter) is a term to describe a range of activities that don't all fall in one place on a moral spectrum. I liked Lomax's analogy - you wouldn't stomp out the warehouse/distribution industry because some workers are exploited (the minor weakness in the analogy is that we need stuff like food, building materials, etc. to survive, which is not the case with porn - but this is a quibble) - you would strive rather for reform of the industry.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 8th, 2014, 10:49 am 

Braininvat » April 8th, 2014, 3:41 pm wrote:I liked Lomax's analogy - you wouldn't stomp out the warehouse/distribution industry because some workers are exploited (the minor weakness in the analogy is that we need stuff like food, building materials, etc. to survive, which is not the case with porn - but this is a quibble) - you would strive rather for reform of the industry.

I was mainly working for the likes of Disney, which probably produces enough disillusioned young women to keep the porn industry in full throttle for millennia. And thankyou :p
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Philosopher8659 on April 8th, 2014, 11:37 am 

Hendrick Laursen » March 16th, 2014, 2:44 pm wrote:Nowadays, we find many channels and websites presenting porno, and many many people enjoying them, while many others strongly resist them?

What's the ethics' view on this phenomenon?


I think the fault in ethics starts with a damn poor education.

If I were to put the question in terms of definition, and in terms of metaphor based upon that definition, I would have to say that that a beast has seven eyes and seven horns. That is seven ways to percieve and seven means of protecting its life. Based upon a definition like the following.

If living organisms survive by what it can make of its environment, then

Definition: An environmental acquisition system of a living organism is that system of an organism which must acquire something from the environment and process that which it has acquired for a product that maintains and promotes the life of that organism.
Those Systems that Acquire Material.
1) The Digestive-System.
2) The Manipulative-System.
3) The Respiratory-System.
Those Systems that Acquire Form.
4) The Ocular-System.
5) The Vestibular-System.
6) The Procreative-System.
7) The Judgmental-System.

In other words, back to metaphor, good is "to have life and have it more abundantly"

And since the mind functions to effect the behaviors of these systems it must learn and execute both branches of reasoning, Logic and Analogic, to do its job.

This means that all human behavior is derivable from the principles of reasoning. It is not what makes my pecker stand up, or what makes me blush, but what is crafted that maintains and promtes life.

The human mind is responsible for human behavior over time such that that behavior maintains and promotes the life of the body. And since man = man, well, I do not think I would be the least interested in something that is counter productive to a long term relationship, unless I were out of my mind.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby FiLTH on April 17th, 2014, 4:33 pm 

The issue with pornography is it degrades the feminine gender. The images do imprint themselves on the mind and can affect a person's outlook whether he/she is aware of it or not. Also it forms no education on sex or a higher view of sex. Unlike the Karma Sutra for example. I don't think sexuality should be oppressed or tabooed but it should be explored and enhanced, not exploited or degraded.

I'll put it down as 'unfortunate' since those who focus on pornography (the quick movies/pictures) limit themselves and their partners.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 17th, 2014, 6:02 pm 

Hi FiLTH,

FiLTH wrote:The issue with pornography is it degrades the feminine gender.

That's Bull-Pucky. That's the party line. Do you consider Playboy to be Porn? Some do. Personally, I like looking at Naked Women (especially pretty ones) and if they draw attention to their sexuality by some actions.. all the better. It's beautiful and natural in my eyes.

If you disagree, you might want to consider professional help. Body shame and sexual disgust is programmed into humans by irrational idiots propagating myths. IMHO..

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby safeleo on April 17th, 2014, 6:53 pm 

User Dave for president.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby FiLTH on April 17th, 2014, 9:31 pm 

Dave_Oblad » April 17th, 2014, 5:02 pm wrote:Hi FiLTH,

FiLTH wrote:The issue with pornography is it degrades the feminine gender.

That's Bull-Pucky. That's the party line. Do you consider Playboy to be Porn? Some do. Personally, I like looking at Naked Women (especially pretty ones) and if they draw attention to their sexuality by some actions.. all the better. It's beautiful and natural in my eyes.

If you disagree, you might want to consider professional help. Body shame and sexual disgust is programmed into humans by irrational idiots propagating myths. IMHO..

Best wishes,
Dave :^)


Pornography: Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the explicit portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal.
It is not the same as 'liking to look at naked women'.

Calm your tits a bit and read the rest of my comment. You will see that the rest of your comment doesn't apply.
FiLTH
 
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