Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 17th, 2014, 9:41 pm 

FiLTH wrote:Pornography: Pornography (often abbreviated as "porn" or "porno" in informal usage) is the explicit portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purpose of sexual arousal.
It is not the same as 'liking to look at naked women'.


Yeah I'm not seeing the distinction either. I find myself agreeing with Dave here. Porn can be degrading to woman (and humanity in general), but the concept of porn is not in and of itself degrading to women in mu opinion.

Side note: If you frequent some of the relevant forums, you'll find that a lot of these women are extremely proud of what they do.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby FiLTH on April 17th, 2014, 9:52 pm 

You statement is that you are not seeing the distinction of 'liking to look at naked women' and pornography?

Pornography is not an appreciation of the female body or sex, it's plainly watching some other person (group/single) having sex for your own arousal. The persons portrayed are mostly actors with no real essence. Compare that to the message of the Karma Sutra. There is so much to sex and the female body that pornography doesn't reveal or address.

Truth? I don't see how the postings of some women in a forum is relevant. They represent themselves and not the whole of the female gender, just as my postings represent my thoughts and not that of any other gender. Some may agree/ disagree -that's life.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 17th, 2014, 9:58 pm 

ElectraQT » April 17th, 2014, 6:41 pm wrote:Side note: If you frequent some of the relevant forums, you'll find that a lot of these women are extremely proud of what they do.

I will take your word for it but I suspect this boasting is to compensate for their real feelings about it.

I have a hard time accepting that being a pornographer is something that is freely brought up (and with pride) during 'aunt Amy's' family party and that their personal and social life and intimate relationships do not suffer in the least. Or that later their kids will be proud when they know their mother or father is recorded for eternity.

Often young people get into this for the fast money then do not think through the consequences and the grave impact it may have on the rest of their lives.

Here is just one sad example of a pornographer who tells what she felt:

http://www.independent.ie/woman/my-time ... 41890.html
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 17th, 2014, 10:04 pm 

Hi FiLTH,

FiLTH wrote:Calm your tits a bit..

Haha.. I like that.. nobody has ever said that to me before. Sorry, My post was a Knee-jerk reaction to the statement of Porn being degrading, especially to women. That which is Degrading is in the eyes of the beholder and doesn't have to be in the specific act itself. Admittedly, there is much Porn even I won't watch, especially when it depicts violence, such as Rape (or animals or children).

If some women wanted to watch me Masturbate and paid me to do so, I would not consider it to be degrading to myself. Unfortunately, I'm 63 years old with a pot belly.. so I guess I will have to keep my day job...lol.

Venus wrote:Often young people get into this for the fast money then do not think through the consequences and the grave impact it may have on the rest of their lives.

And there is the problem in a nutshell. It should not have a grave impact on them. It's society and its irrational views on Porn that creates the real problem. This is what I fight against.

Best wishes,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby FiLTH on April 17th, 2014, 10:18 pm 

You should probably read the rest of the comment. I have no issues with sensuality, just pornography comes off as a cheap, packaged product of a rich thing.

haa Ask a group of men if they'll mind being sexually violated by a strange beautiful woman. Most would be eager and wouldn't consider it a violation (at least I'd not). Ask that question to a group of women, if they'll mind being sexually violated by a strange handsome man. And most would be offended.

There is something about women that comes off as closer to purity (ah idk the word) than men. I don't know if it is a culturally instilled view or a biological thing.

Pornography doesn't enhance the view of woman's sensuality, because it is shallow and acted...that's why I described it as 'degrading'.


-Maybe instead of fighting for a cheap thing as pornography, you can fight for the real thing. An educated view of sex and filling desires through filling a partner's desires. At least that's what I'd fight for. Less misinformation on sex
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 17th, 2014, 10:22 pm 

Dave_Oblad » April 17th, 2014, 7:04 pm wrote:And there is the problem in a nutshell. It should not have a grave impact on them. It's society and its irrational views on Porn that creates the real problem. This is what I fight against.

Ah, it's society's fault! I see, we are playing the blame game!

You cannot conceive that people can have serious personal problems after they have done this work? You would not be be able to understand that those people can have a problem with intimacy, with personal shame, with their self-esteem? They should instead be proud because they were the subject of viewers sexual gratification?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 17th, 2014, 10:56 pm 

Hi Venus,

Yes.. I am most certainly playing the blame game. Put the blame where it belongs!

Venus wrote:You cannot conceive that people can have serious personal problems after they have done this work? You would not be be able to understand that those people can have a problem with intimacy, with personal shame, with their self-esteem? They should instead be proud because they were the subject of viewers sexual gratification?

All the afflictions mentioned are due to negative programming. I read your article and of course.. we find the lady was raised in a Religious Household. How could she not be afflicted when she was brainwashed to believe that what she was doing was wrong?

If you were raised in a society that declared you must keep your head covered at all times or go to hell and this was the common accepted norm for your immediate society.. then you traveled to a country where it is forbidden to cover your head.. you would be in great distress too. For nothing that is real.

I tend to agree with FiLTH's general views. I'm not as radical as I portray myself. But I do get very agitated when smart people can't see the reason <why> a problem is a problem. The problem was artificially manufactured by Society. The blame lies with Society and those that can't see this is the truth.

Best Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 17th, 2014, 11:03 pm 

If the assumption is that all women want to eventually have a cardboard cut-out life with a cardboard cut-out husband, 2.5 kids, and a house with a lawn, and get to visit family members on weekends, or have big family gatherings during holidays where people get to measure up their life's achievement against each others' and judge their choices based on some list of divine codes, then yes, I can see how porn can pause issues to them later on in life. However, I don't think one can safely say that everybody necessarily has the same conditions, visions, and aspirations for their life's course.

Plus, if somebody who went into porn does end up regretting their youthful decisions later in life, they wouldn't be the first or the last ones to do so.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 17th, 2014, 11:11 pm 

And by the way, you guys are aware that a lot of the porn available today isn't actually "produced" anymore (blame the internet), right? The web is riddled with people who just enjoy recording themselves and publishing their videos. I know women who have done it willingly for the fun of it. I don't think they thought it was degrading to them. Now whether or not they will regret it later, that's a whole different question...

In any case, I find it helpful in discussions like this not to see everything through your own goggles. Things that might seem tremendously important to you might not matter the least for others, and vice versa.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 17th, 2014, 11:33 pm 

Hi FiLTH,

FiLTH wrote:An educated view of sex and filling desires through filling a partner's desires. At least that's what I'd fight for. Less misinformation on sex.

I'd agree except society hasn't left me many options. My wife passed away 11 years ago. Prostitution is illegal (God only knows why) and I need visual stimulation because my imagination isn't what it used to be.

Women my age are about as appealing as I am (not). But I have to do something when my hormones tell me it's time. Internet Porn is my only source of visual stimulation. I'm not a Priest (ok, perhaps a bad choice there). So what do I do? Hope for nocturnal emissions?

Someday I may find the right woman and get married again.. but I don't have the time or resources to play the dating games for now. I need a band-aid solution. That is honestly what Porn provides me, for now at least.

Best to all,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 18th, 2014, 1:16 am 

FiLTH » April 17th, 2014, 9:33 pm wrote:The issue with pornography is it degrades the feminine gender.

Why only the feminine gender? And in what way?

FiLTH » April 18th, 2014, 2:52 am wrote:The persons portrayed are mostly actors with no real essence.

I think you have been watching a specific type of pornography. As I mentioned before, there's an important distinction between "amateur" and "professional" pornography; the "amateur" stuff tends to be just that - not made by hired actors and paid producers, but uploaded by choice (for whatever reason, I don't know) for others to enjoy. Any criticism of the innate nature of porn itself is going to have to cover both types.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 18th, 2014, 1:45 am 

I have to say I find something condescending about the arguments made by Venus and FiLTH, and for separate reasons.

We are told by Venus that pornography is wrong because one half of its participants will inevitably regret taking part in it - and when told this is not the case, Venus answers simply that these women are lying to cover their "real" feelings about it. What can one do with such unfalsifiable arguments? Besides this, consider the sinister absurdity of branding so many women lying braggarts, and doing so under the guise of looking out for them.

Meanwhile FiLTH tells us that pornography degrades only the feminine gender (or does he mean the female sex? There seems some inconsistency). He tells ElectraQT that unrepenting pornographic actresses' opinions do not matter because they -

FiLTH » April 18th, 2014, 2:52 am wrote:represent themselves and not the whole of the female gender, just as my postings represent my thoughts and not that of any other gender.

- and goes on to inform us that -

FiLTH wrote:Ask that question to a group of women, if they'll mind being sexually violated by a strange handsome man. And most would be offended.

- in other words, pro-porn women cannot speak for womanhood, but an anti-porn man, apparently, can.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 18th, 2014, 2:02 am 

Lomax » April 17th, 2014, 10:45 pm wrote:We are told by Venus that pornography is wrong ......

I did not express anything about pornography being right or wrong.

Lomax » April 17th, 2014, 10:45 pm wrote:because one half of its participants will inevitably regret taking part in it - and when told this is not the case, Venus answers simply that these women are lying to cover their "real" feelings about it. What can one do with such unfalsifiable arguments? Besides this, consider the sinister absurdity of branding so many women lying braggarts, and doing so under the guise of looking out for them.

Branding so many women? Perhaps you are exaggerating?

Let's go back to the original statement that triggered my response, that pornographers are supposedly proud of what they do? Do you think that is generally true? Where is the data to back that up?

I do not think for one moment that many are proud of their profession. Sure the producers, directors may be, but I am talking about the actors. I think most actors do it for the money and only for the money.

Furthermore I think the 'being proud' expression is a common way of dealing with internal dissonance and a way to defend one's position.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 18th, 2014, 2:31 am 

Venus » April 18th, 2014, 7:02 am wrote:Branding so many women? Perhaps you are exaggerating?

Let's go back to the original statement that triggered my response, that pornographers are supposedly proud of what they do? Do you think that is generally true? Where is the data to back that up?

For instance, there's the study that finds pornographic actresses have higher levels of self-esteem. But we might wonder where is the data to back up your claims that such women are liars, and are really ashamed of themselves?

Venus » April 18th, 2014, 7:02 am wrote:Furthermore I think the 'being proud' expression is a common way of dealing with internal dissonance and a way to defend one's position.

Or perhaps it has more to do with the external dissonance they always have to put with, from everybody else.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 18th, 2014, 2:46 am 

Lomax » April 17th, 2014, 11:31 pm wrote:Or perhaps it has more to do with the external dissonance they always have to put with, from everybody else.

Yes that is a factor as well.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 8:47 am 

10 Things You Didn't Know About Slavery, Human Trafficking (And What You Can Do About It) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/human-trafficking-month_n_4590587.html

FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin - Human Sex Trafficking
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/march_2011/human_sex_trafficking

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/human-trafficking-month_n_4590587.html
The Relationship Between Pornography and Human Trafficking
Pornography Supports the Human Trafficking Business
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 8:59 am 

There are so many industries out there that lead to incredible corruption and inhumane practices. That doesn't automatically mean that any product related to these industries is inherently degrading/evil/unethical/or whatever the implication is. It's quite irrelevant in my opinion.

If a woman chooses to be a porn star and is proud of her work, then who are you to judge? You're trying to gauge this from your very own set of standards for self-respect, happiness, etc. But what makes you so sure that everybody else carries the same standards? And if they don't, then the only explanation is that they're not sufficiently competent to know what's better for them? That's not at all arrogant, circular, or condescending...
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 9:08 am 

While there may be a difference between some of the products and how the industry overall produces those products I don't think you can divide it up so easily. So how do the pro-porno supporters tell the difference between a happy, well adjusted, self-respecting, non-coerced, non-exploited, not under-aged sex worker and those who aren't?

I don't have a problem with "dirty pictures" but the industry is another thing.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 9:12 am 

I didn't think we were discussing the industry. I thought we were discussing the product itself because of 1- the definition provided, and 2- the fact that both professional and amateur/personal porn were being discussed.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 9:17 am 

ElectraQT » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:12 am wrote:I didn't think we were discussing the industry. I thought we were discussing the product itself because of 1- the definition provided, and 2- the fact that both professional and amateur/personal porn were being discussed.


I dunno what you all were discussing. I don't think you can have a productive discussion regarding pornography and it's ethical status without dealing with the industry. But I understand why most especially those who take the pro-porn position would want to stay as far away from such aspects.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 9:21 am 

mtbturtle, but that also applies to any product and related industries, including those products whose usefulness is hard to argue against, such as say medicine. Am I to believe that modern medicine is an inherently bad product because of some shameful industry practices? Now apply that to anything you want. You're really not "cornering" the pro-porn position with these points as much as you might think that you are.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 9:25 am 

Mind you, my position here is not pro-porn per say, but rather pro-doing whatever the hell you want as long as you're not hurting anyone, and not have to be judged so horribly for it. I believe the "without hurting anyone" covers the bit about not endorsing shameful industry practices - no brainer.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 9:39 am 

ElectraQT » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:21 am wrote:mtbturtle, but that also applies to any product and related industries, including those products whose usefulness is hard to argue against, such as say modern medicine. Am I to believe that modern medicine is an inherently bad product because of some shameful industry practices? Now apply that to anything you want. You're not really "cornering" the porn proponents here as much as you might think you are.


Electra, yes I suppose we could go that route. However, we are not talking about just a few bad apples, we are talking about widespread and standard practices. So while I admit you may be able to find some porn that does not at least directly partake in such acts, how many of customers, viewers actually bother to put the effort into even trying to do so and further how would any of them figure that out anyway?

It's like the Abolitionists who refused to buy/use sugar. Was all sugar from slave plantations?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 9:55 am 

http://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/MacKinnon.pdf
Trafficking, Prostitution, and Inequality by Catharine A. MacKinnon

No one defends trafficking. There is no pro-sex-trafficking position any more than there is a public pro-slavery position for labor these days. The only issue is defining these terms so nothing anyone wants to defend is covered. It is hard to find overt defenders of inequality either, even as its legal definition is also largely shaped by existing practices the powerful want to keep.

Prostitution is not like this. Some people are for it; they affirmatively support it. Many more regard it as politically correct to tolerate and oppose doing anything effective about it. Most assume that, if not exactly desirable, prostitution is necessary or inevitable and harmless. These views of prostitution lie beneath and surround any debate on sex trafficking, whether prostitution is distinguished from trafficking or seen as indistinguishable from it, whether seen as a form of sexual freedom or understood as its ultimate denial. The debate on the underlying reality, and its relation to inequality, intensifies whenever doing anything effective about either prostitution or trafficking is considered.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 10:18 am 

mtbturtle, I don't have a problem with anything you're saying about the referenced industries. However, I still don't think it's directly related to arguing the position(s) I've explicitly stated in previous post(s). I also don't know how prostitution and human trafficking directly bear on whether or not the specific act of creating a porn clip is degrading to the woman involved, or how it is more degrading to the woman than it is to the male partner. If anything, it is difficult to invoke such a logic without inadvertently degrading women. And I have to say here that I find the argument that it is so because "men are much more likely to favor being violated by beautiful women, than the other way around" to be both degrarding and offensive to women, on top of silly.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 10:23 am 

ElectraQT » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:18 am wrote:mtbturtle, I don't have a problem with anything you're saying about the referenced industries. However, I still don't think it's directly related to arguing the position(s) I've explicitly stated in previous post(s). I also don't know how prostitution and human trafficking directly bear on whether or not the specific act of creating a porn clip is degrading to the woman involved, or how it is more degrading to the woman than it is to the male partner. And I have to say here that I find the argument that it is so because "men are much more likely to favor being violated by beautiful women, than the other way around" to be both degrarding and offensive to women, on top of silly.


I dunno where this "men are much more" stuff came from but it wasn't me.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 10:25 am 

mtbturtle wrote:I dunno where this "men are much more" stuff came from but it wasn't me.


It wasn't you. Some other poster said that earlier in the thread. I just remembered having that thought while I was typing my response to you. I should've probably made the comment in a separate post to avoid confusion.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Lomax on April 18th, 2014, 10:56 am 

mtbturtle » April 18th, 2014, 2:39 pm wrote:It's like the Abolitionists who refused to buy/use sugar. Was all sugar from slave plantations?

One might well ask what was the point of boycotting sugar that was consentually produced. Given your arguments here, and given that some sugar is still produced by forced labour, are we to assume that you don't buy any products with sugar in?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby ElectraQT on April 18th, 2014, 10:58 am 

Ah, that's right Lomax. I forgot to come back to that one.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 18th, 2014, 12:08 pm 

Lomax » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:56 am wrote:
mtbturtle » April 18th, 2014, 2:39 pm wrote:It's like the Abolitionists who refused to buy/use sugar. Was all sugar from slave plantations?

One might well ask what was the point of boycotting sugar that was consentually produced. Given your arguments here, and given that some sugar is still produced by forced labour, are we to assume that you don't buy any products with sugar in?


I dunno but it probably would have been really hard to tell the difference so as a practical matter it was easier. I suppose you missed the part about these kinds of abuses are widespread and standard operating policy. Assume what you will most do anyway.
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