Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Discussions that deal with moral issues. Key questions in ethics include: How should one live? What is right (or wrong) to do? What is the best way for humans to live?

Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Venus on April 19th, 2014, 8:46 pm 

571- » April 19th, 2014, 5:22 pm wrote:Are there any ethical differences between the two?

I am asking.

That does not even parse.

People can have ethical differences about things, but things an sich cannot.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 19th, 2014, 9:05 pm 

That question was leading to a more developed/pointed thought-question...

What about prostitution, specifically, not pornography, assuming that there is relative consensus that this form of sex trade is unethical - mostly in the eyes of the middle-class I presume - is unethical?

To be even less presumptuous, what is it that is or can be unethical about any sort of sex work?

This question is absolutely free of presumption or preconception other than for the fact that something is presumed to be unethical about some kind of sex work. THIS is the question that must be answered for us to assess the ethicalness of pornography.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 19th, 2014, 9:25 pm 

Hi all,

Too much going on above to be worth itemizing. I'll say this much: I prostitute myself every workday at my job. My company needs my brain to solve their problems. I get paid for my mental services. There are those that dig ditches.. they are being exploited for their physical stamina. There are game players that have specific skills in projecting balls and running.

Get it? Everyone prostitutes themselves for money in some fashion! The only variation is the skill set. So in the worlds oldest profession.. women (and men) sell themselves.. Money for Sex.

And there is that Key word.. SEX. People are brainwashed to believe it is bad and will go to great lengths to defend that position. They are mere parrots accepting what they have been brainwashed to believe all their lives. They rarely even question it.

And Yes.. it is a matter of Us vs Them. Them being the Righteous Moral Majority with strong ties to Religion.

Recreational SEX was dangerous. To stop the spread of sexually transmitted disease, we needed laws to hamper such activity. Laws like Sex with only one Partner for life. No cheating on a Spouse. No divorce. And the threat of an all seeing God to scare people into compliance. That is the source of our being uncomfortable with Sex. Disease is still a potential problem, even to this day. But we are now aware of how to avoid these problems through education and safe practices.

All that remains is to get the people that wrote such fears into protective laws.. to understand the history of why things are the way they are.. and begin the process to unravel this web of misconceptions. Take the Dirty out of Sex and see it as a healthy (and fun) activity no different that any other form of exercise.

And not to put too fine a point on it.. these laws have only been around a tiny fraction of the time humans have been roaming about this planet. Do you honestly think that earlier mankind kicked the kids out in the snow, just because the Parents wanted to engage in Sex. Doesn't it make sense that those Parents allowed the kids to watch them.. for educational purposes? Or, dare I say, probably invited the kids to join them when they got old enough?

That strong kick of revulsion you just felt.. was you seeing/waking-up to a reality/truth for the first time and the pain of having your brainwashed response mechanism take a harsh slap.

And whoever said it above, cracking down on Sex Activities and suppressing the Human Sex-Drive will only lead to pushing it deeper underground and even greater perversions. I am glad I wasn't programmed to be afraid of Masturbation. Had I been raised as such, then I would have no recourse to abating my sexual urges. This would make me very angry at the situation forced upon me. I might even take it out on some poor innocent girl in a fit of sexually suppressed anger. I think there is a name for that action.

Thank God, I can Masturbate without guilt, as long as I have some material to help me. I get to put the beast back in the box and continue with a productive life, no one gets hurt. Some out there are not so lucky.

And finally, I feel nothing for that poor Boo-Hoo woman that walked into a situation with eyes wide open and now regrets it.. to the tune of seeking support from those that would persecute her by changing her song to what they want to hear and gaining their sympathy. She shouldn't have to be persecuted in the first place.. even by herself.

I am so discouraged by the Human Race, can't wait to leave sometimes.

Regards,
Dave :^)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 19th, 2014, 9:27 pm 

Good post^

Btw, I'm not trying to dominate the discussion, I'm just trying to be productive...with the right questions, etc..

If we answer the question I stated above, we can make headway on this topic I believe...it really focuses in on the real issue (I believe)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 19th, 2014, 9:29 pm 

I am so discouraged by the Human Race, can't wait to leave sometimes.


Aww :D We would miss you....
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby safeleo on April 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say prostitution in itself isn't unethical. If a woman or man wants to sell themselves for sex, and take proper safety procedures, they should be allowed to do what they want. The problem is, of course, when it evolves into human trafficking and illegal or dubious activities, such as drugs, child abuse, and rape.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby Dave_Oblad on April 19th, 2014, 10:21 pm 

Hi safeleo.

safeleo wrote:The problem is, of course, when it evolves into human trafficking and illegal or dubious activities, such as drugs, child abuse, and rape.

There is the problem. You used the words "of course". As if one must lead to the other. Do you support that without prostitution, there would be no Drugs, Child Abuse or Rapes?

If Prostitution was legal, at least one of those items would see a drop. Rapes would drop because now some men have a legal option to release themselves. Some rapes will still occur, because some men are programmed to believe using Prostitution for release is as bad as Masturbation.. a sure ticket to hell.

My (was) oldest friend was raised in an extremely religious household. He got the crap beat out of him at 16 when his parents found a Playboy Mag under his bed. He grew up very twisted. He got Married, but had problems with premature ejaculation when his wife simply undressed in front of him. His wife later divorced him when she caught him playing sexual games with his 9 year old daughter. Go figure?

Sex and Drugs? Both make you feel good.. that's the only connection. Drugs without Sex still feels good. And Sex without Drugs still feels good. So I don't see your point in relating them. Except people that like one.. may like the other. Big Deal.

Every convicted Rapist had Milk in his refrigerator.. should we ban Milk?

Best to all,
Dave :^)

Ps. Supper time and Mom time.. back tomorrow I hope.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby safeleo on April 20th, 2014, 5:06 am 

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting any definite correlation, but sometimes prostitution can be coupled with other illegal activities, and I was saying that is the only time there is something wrong with it. Of course they exist as separate crimes, but like with anything else, it can lead to other illegal things.

Actually I don't know what I meant. :P My opinion is based on nothing more than movie stereotypes, and I admit my mistake.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby TheVat on April 21st, 2014, 9:50 am 

I think the core (I wanted to say "hard core" but if I get started on sexual double-entendres in this thread there would be no end to them, and there might be stiff opposition to such idle wordplay....) argument for a variety of sexual amenities is that they provide a way to channel a basic human drive that is powerful and that most cannot healthily (or sanely) repress. Most of the arguments I'm seeing against such sexual amenities, be it porn, prostitution, or casual encounters on the train, seem to be not ethical arguments against them per se, but a kind of "guilt by association," in which they sometimes are connected with cynical and exploitative human behavior, and/or criminality. As such, these arguments are about reform rather than intrinsic value. One could just as well argue against capitalism, mass merchandising, or (as Dave cleverly pointed out) being employed in any capacity, following the same playbook.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 10:38 am 

I've been following this thread and I have to say that BiV's last post distills the position that has made the most sense to me so far (which If I'm not mistaken has been primarily championed by Lomax and ElectraQT).
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 10:42 am 

Oh, and DAVE! How could I forget :)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 21st, 2014, 11:24 am 

Michigan Journal of International Law
Summer, 2005
26 Mich. J. Int'l L. 993
Katherine MacKinnon
Pornography as Trafficking


In material reality, pornography is one way women and children are trafficked for sex. To make visual pornography, the bulk of the industry's products, n1 real women and children, and some men, are rented out for use in commercial sex acts. In the resulting materials, these people are then conveyed and sold for a buyer's sexual use. Obscenity laws, the traditional legal approach to the problem, do not care about these realities at all. The morality of what is said and shown remains their focus and concern. The injuries inflicted on real people to make the materials, or because they are used, n2 are irrelevant to what is illegal about obscenity. n3 Accordingly, as the trafficking constituted by the exhibition, distribution, sale, and purchase of materials that do these harms is ignored. Laws against sex trafficking, international and domestic, criminal and human rights laws - specifically their concept of [*994] commercial sexual exploitation, around which international consensus is growing n4 - recognize the realities of the global sex industry increasingly well. These provisions are more promising for addressing pornography than has been recognized.

I. Realities and Concepts

Pimps are typically paid for the sexual use of the real people who are bought and sold to engage in the sex acts for money that are what most pornography is made of. The pornographers then are paid to re-pimp these people in the pornography itself, producing sexual pleasure for the consumers and immense profits for the pornographers, which both
seek to repeat. From the standpoint of the person used to make the materials, the image of the person is still that person. And the sexual use of the person in the materials by the consumer is a real, actual, sexual act for the user. When Linda Boreman said, "every time someone watches that film, they are watching me being raped," n5 she did not say they are
watching the rape of "an image of me" or "a representation of me" being raped. If these were anything but sex pictures, the rights of the people in them over the materials made by their use would be legally recognized. n6 Defamatory lies about them in pornography, for example, destroying their reputations, would be actionable. n7 Knowing the pornography of you is always out there is a particular kind of trauma. n8 [*995]

Although legitimate corporations increasingly traffic the materials, the pornography industry, like other means of human trafficking, remains at base an organized crime industry built on force, some physical, some not. n9 As with all prostitution, the women and children in pornography are, in the main, not there by choice but because of a lack of choices. They usually "consent" to the acts only in the degraded and demented sense of the word (common also to the law of rape) in which a person who despairs at stopping what is happening, sees no escape, has no real alternative, was often sexually abused before as a child, may be addicted to drugs, is homeless, hopeless, is often trying to avoid being
beaten or killed, is almost always economically desperate, acquiesces in being sexually abused for payment, even if, in most instances, it is payment to someone else. Many are children; most enter the industry as children. n10 Most pornography is, in pure John Millerese, "made by slaves." n11

Need it be said (it still seems to), the individuals so used say they usually feel nothing sexually. n12 Most of the time, the sex they are shown [*996] having is with someone they have no sexual interest in, doing things that do nothing for them sexually. The pleasure is routinely faked. They certainly never meaningfully consent to be intimately accessible to the thousands or millions of men they are then sold to, for money to others, over years and miles, as and for sex. Consent to sex is intimate, not transitive. Yet every step in the making and use of these materials is defended as sexual freedom, referring to the people in it. Women must be the only group, and sex the only means, in which a form of oppression is openly defended, not to mention sold as pleasure and even accepted by some of the oppressed, as a means of their liberation.

The force it took to make the pornography is shown or not, depending on the taste of the consumer. Deep Throat and Playboy n13 do not show it; Extreme Productions does. n14 Whether the material itself shows less aggression or more, from the vulnerability of sexual body parts in the glossy men's entertainment magazines through the sexual servicing in the "fuck and suck" genre, to the torture of sadomasochism and the murder of snuff, just as throwing money at victims of sexual abuse does not make it a job, taking pictures of it does not make it freely chosen or desired. n15 It makes it pictures of paid rape - rape in the real, if regrettably seldom in the legal, sense. n16


If any are interested in reading the rest let me know. I wasn't able to find an easily accessible copy online.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 12:13 pm 

Yes of course mtb, nobody should ever be harmed or treated unfairly/non-consensually for somebody else's viewing pleasure, zero doubt about that. There's some seriously deranged activities out there that should not be allowed to occur under any circumstance.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 21st, 2014, 2:01 pm 

Does anyone agree that if a person is paid for sex that they have consented?

BioWizard, deranged makes it sound as if it is rare, some small "sicko" minority but that's not what MacKinnon is talking about at all.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 2:06 pm 

They've consented, but it still may be exploitation and/or manipulation.

There's also a difference between consent and informed, full-disclosure consent.

If the arrangement is a blow job up front, but ends up being much more - and in which situation refusal would be dangerous or otherwise difficult - then that is non-consentual.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 2:18 pm 

That's why "consent" was not the only qualifier I used. N'est-ce pas?
I understand your position mtbturtle, and I appreciate your motives. But I find myself agreeing more with what Braininvat said.

Braininvat » 21 Apr 2014 09:50 am wrote:As such, these arguments are about reform rather than intrinsic value. One could just as well argue against capitalism, mass merchandising, or (as Dave cleverly pointed out) being employed in any capacity, following the same playbook.


I tend to prefer non-extreme solutions wherever possible, and I'm not usually a big fan of all-or-none's (there's always exceptions of course). I don't see the world in black and white, but I am aware that that's just me, and that many people actually do (including the two that made and raised me).
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 2:25 pm 

Indeed.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 2:31 pm 

I tend to prefer non-extreme solutions wherever possible. I don't see the world in black and white, but I know that many people do.


However, sometimes it is the wrong decision to compromise.

Mild - moderate - extreme are relative terms; if something is in essence wrong it can be made to seem moderate or 'a compromise' by comparing it to something far worse. But it could be grievously wrong in essence.

Hence is the danger of compromise. It can be used as a sort of Door-in-the-face technique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique to get immoral legislation passed.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 21st, 2014, 2:32 pm 

BioWizard, I've no idea what extreme positions I've taken. I'm fairly certain you do not understand my positions. But I would be interested to hear what you think it is. It's a good exercise if nothing else. Because while it is unlikely to be mine, it will probably reflect someone's and may highly some important issues.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 2:37 pm 

571- » 21 Apr 2014 02:31 pm wrote:
I tend to prefer non-extreme solutions wherever possible. I don't see the world in black and white, but I know that many people do.


However, sometimes it is the wrong decision to compromise.

Mild - moderate - extreme are relative terms; if something is in essence wrong it can be made to seem moderate or 'a compromise' by comparing it to something far worse. But it could be grievously wrong in essence.

Hence is the danger of compromise. It can be used as a sort of Door-in-the-face technique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique to get immoral legislation passed.


But I never said anything about compromise. A non-extreme solution is not necessarily a mid-point solution. What I said that I don't like is extreme or all-or-none solutions. Quite often, I find that they are neither realistic nor effective (and extremism always invites counter-extremism). I prefer solutions that involve regulation, moderation, reform and accountability. And of course not just with porn, but with pretty much everything.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 2:46 pm 

mtbturtle » 21 Apr 2014 02:32 pm wrote:I'm fairly certain you do not understand my positions. But I would be interested to hear what you think it is. It's a good exercise if nothing else. Because while it is unlikely to be mine, it will probably reflect someone's and may highly some important issues.


Perhaps you're right. But I can only go by what you say. So far I assumed your position to be within the lines of this quote below:

mtbturtle » 18 Apr 2014 04:51 pm wrote:I'm much more the type to legalize, regulate and organize when it comes to policy alternatives for sex workers.


Which doesn't seem to be very different from mine. In which case what I said would not be in disagreement with you, but rather an emphasis on that position.

Nevertheless, I've come across comments like this one:

mtbturtle wrote:I'm not strongly convinced one way or the other whether pornography and other sex work is harmful, in and of itself. I'm willing to accept that there might be some exceptions or that circumstances might arise or be devised that would circumvent some harms. However, we don't live in that world and it's not the exceptional that we have to deal with regularly. As a practical matter even if I accept that there is ok porno I'm left wondering how I'm going to figure out which is which.


Which I may have erroneously interpreted as an implication that such regulation would not be possible, therefor advocating a more radical solution. And in any case, whether it was you or not, extreme solutions have come up in this thread and my point would be addressed to them, wherever they may reside.

Perhaps you should tell us what your position is exactly and what you would perceive to be a reasonable and realistic solution?
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 2:46 pm 

BioWizard » April 21st, 2014, 1:37 pm wrote:
571- » 21 Apr 2014 02:31 pm wrote:
I tend to prefer non-extreme solutions wherever possible. I don't see the world in black and white, but I know that many people do.


However, sometimes it is the wrong decision to compromise.

Mild - moderate - extreme are relative terms; if something is in essence wrong it can be made to seem moderate or 'a compromise' by comparing it to something far worse. But it could be grievously wrong in essence.

Hence is the danger of compromise. It can be used as a sort of Door-in-the-face technique http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique to get immoral legislation passed.


But I never said anything about compromise. A non-extreme solution is not necessarily a mid-point solution. What I said that I don't like is extreme or all-or-none solutions. Quite often, I find that they are neither realistic nor effective (and extremism always invites counter-extremism). I prefer solutions that involve regulation, moderation, reform and accountability. And of course not just with porn, but with pretty much everything.


I see.

Unfortunately the latter are often not real solutions, in that while they might in some cases solve the issue at hand, they don't address the root cause, thus more issues arise or the issue once bandaided later becomes an greater problem, due to the half-ass job of 'solving' it the first time.

I like 'extreme' solutions sometimes because they seek to address the root causes, and thereby truly eliminate the problem. However, because we live in a society that favours bandaid-but-ultimately-ineffective type solutions, these root cause solutions rarely if ever get taken seriously, unfortunately.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 2:51 pm 

571- » 21 Apr 2014 02:46 pm wrote:I like 'extreme' solutions sometimes because they seek to address the root causes, and thereby truly eliminate the problem. However, because we live in a society that favours bandaid-but-ultimately-ineffective type solutions, these root cause solutions rarely if ever get taken seriously, unfortunately.


I may not be the most educated person on world history, but I don't recall a single extreme/all-or-none solution that has worked throughout the entirety of human history. If anything, what I've seen is that the more extreme the solution, the bigger the backlash. Not even a full ban on alcohol works anywhere.

I'm not sure I myself have a rigid position to champion here or well formed idea about an effective solution to offer. All I wanted to say at this point was that talk about reform and regulation has made more sense to me than talk about tucking it under the rug and pretending it's not there and will not resurface uglier and more malicious than before.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 3:01 pm 

That's because they were never intended to be solutions.

They were just what one group wanted, without consideration for the benefit of everyone - even if that was the pretence.

Or...they were just poorly thought out.

Also, it's worth noting that dramatic change in general is difficult and unwise. Humans don't take kindly to this.

I am more talking about consideration all the issues, devising the best solution no matter how extreme, and then slowly implementing it, taking into consideration how everyone will be affected. Not being rash.

Part of the reason why Communism for example in Russia was initially disastrous was because such a massive change was being imposed on an unsuitable still primarily peasant, agricultural society in the early 1900s.

Anyway, I digress.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 21st, 2014, 3:15 pm 

BioWizard » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:46 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » 21 Apr 2014 02:32 pm wrote:I'm fairly certain you do not understand my positions. But I would be interested to hear what you think it is. It's a good exercise if nothing else. Because while it is unlikely to be mine, it will probably reflect someone's and may highly some important issues.


Perhaps your right. But I can only go by what you say. So far I assumed your position to be within the lines of this quote below:

mtbturtle » 18 Apr 2014 04:51 pm wrote:I'm much more the type to legalize, regulate and organize when it comes to policy alternatives for sex workers.


Which doesn't seem to be very different from mine. In which case what I said would not be in disagreement with you, but rather an emphasis on that position.

Nevertheless, I've come across comments like this one:

mtbturtle wrote:I'm not strongly convinced one way or the other whether pornography and other sex work is harmful, in and of itself. I'm willing to accept that there might be some exceptions or that circumstances might arise or be devised that would circumvent some harms. However, we don't live in that world and it's not the exceptional that we have to deal with regularly. As a practical matter even if I accept that there is ok porno I'm left wondering how I'm going to figure out which is which.


Which I may have erroneously interpreted as an implication that such regulation would not be possible, therefor advocating a more radical solution. And in any case, whether it was you or not, extreme solutions have come up in this thread and my point would be addressed to them, wherever they may reside.

Perhaps you should tell us what your position is exactly and what you would perceive to be a reasonable and realistic solution?


Let see, the libertarian in me says people should be free to buy and sell whatever they want. The American in me asserts my first amendment rights to free speech and flashes "obscenity laws". The Atheist in me thinks the prudes and holy rollers can stuff it also. The Sex Positive Feminist wants to remove the various stigmas around these issues. The Radical Feminist in me wants to organize the exploited and oppressed. The Progressive in me has qualms about effectiveness of certain policies. The Pragmatist suspects it might come down to a question of demand and practically I still am not sure how to figure out which is which. I mean when watching porn am I watching somebody being raped? And then deep down a part of me suspects MacKinnon is on to something.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 3:37 pm 

571- » 21 Apr 2014 03:01 pm wrote:That's because they were never intended to be solutions.

They were just what one group wanted, without consideration for the benefit of everyone - even if that was the pretence.

Or...they were just poorly thought out.


They failed due to poor design or implementation, because otherwise they would've worked better than anything else. That's quite circular.

As I said before, I am aware that many do see the world in black and white and thus find great appeal (and comfort) in binary models. I personally don't. I prefer approaches that actually work, and so far all-or-none measures haven't been in that category (and probably never will be). In any case, I think we're not going to agree here, and it's not my intention to change anybody's mind anyway. Diversity is good.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby BioWizard on April 21st, 2014, 3:40 pm 

mtbturtle » 21 Apr 2014 03:15 pm wrote:Let see, the libertarian in me says people should be free to buy and sell whatever they want. The American in me asserts my first amendment rights to free speech and flashes "obscenity laws". The Atheist in me thinks the prudes and holy rollers can stuff it also. The Sex Positive Feminist wants to remove the various stigmas around these issues. The Radical Feminist in me wants to organize the exploited and oppressed. The Progressive in me has qualms about effectiveness of certain policies. The Pragmatist suspects it might come down to a question of demand and practically I still am not sure how to figure out which is which. I mean when watching porn am I watching somebody being raped? And then deep down a part of me suspects MacKinnon is on to something.


And which one are you today? :)
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby mtbturtle on April 21st, 2014, 3:49 pm 

BioWizard » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:40 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » 21 Apr 2014 03:15 pm wrote:Let see, the libertarian in me says people should be free to buy and sell whatever they want. The American in me asserts my first amendment rights to free speech and flashes "obscenity laws". The Atheist in me thinks the prudes and holy rollers can stuff it also. The Sex Positive Feminist wants to remove the various stigmas around these issues. The Radical Feminist in me wants to organize the exploited and oppressed. The Progressive in me has qualms about effectiveness of certain policies. The Pragmatist suspects it might come down to a question of demand and practically I still am not sure how to figure out which is which. I mean when watching porn am I watching somebody being raped? And then deep down a part of me suspects MacKinnon is on to something.


And which one are you today? :)


I'm the one at the end wrestling with MacKinnon. I really don't have much of a response to her case against the "sex work" model and in favor of "sex exploitation".
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 3:57 pm 

BioWizard-

Also, it's worth noting that dramatic change in general is difficult and unwise. Humans don't take kindly to this.

I am more talking about consideration all the issues, devising the best solution no matter how extreme, and then slowly implementing it, taking into consideration how everyone will be affected. Not being rash.

Part of the reason why Communism for example in Russia was initially disastrous was because such a massive change was being imposed on an unsuitable still primarily peasant, agricultural society in the early 1900s.

Anyway, I digress.


One other very important point has to be stated.

All the big changes you speak of in history were limited by one very significant factor - time.

They had to overthrow whoever and quickly establish their rule - in the case of the Russian revolution, for example - or they would not have even gotten that far.

Thus, there are always threats due to the world not being on the same page with regard to goals pressuring major changes to be done quickly at any point anywhere in the world, which means poorly and often with negative outcomes if the change does manage to come to be even if only temporarily.

Like I said, we need to sit down and work (all) these problems out and then implement the solutions. This requires that we all come together under common goals; one of the barrier in the porn issue for example is economical...

We have to get ride of these conflicting elements in our society, so the right changes can be made properly.
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Re: Pornography, Good, Bad or Ugly?

Postby 571- on April 21st, 2014, 4:03 pm 

mtbturtle » April 21st, 2014, 2:49 pm wrote:
BioWizard » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:40 pm wrote:
mtbturtle » 21 Apr 2014 03:15 pm wrote:Let see, the libertarian in me says people should be free to buy and sell whatever they want. The American in me asserts my first amendment rights to free speech and flashes "obscenity laws". The Atheist in me thinks the prudes and holy rollers can stuff it also. The Sex Positive Feminist wants to remove the various stigmas around these issues. The Radical Feminist in me wants to organize the exploited and oppressed. The Progressive in me has qualms about effectiveness of certain policies. The Pragmatist suspects it might come down to a question of demand and practically I still am not sure how to figure out which is which. I mean when watching porn am I watching somebody being raped? And then deep down a part of me suspects MacKinnon is on to something.


And which one are you today? :)


I'm the one at the end wrestling with MacKinnon. I really don't have much of a response to her case against the "sex work" model and in favor of "sex exploitation".


Have you ever taken a firm position on anything?

To be in indecision, always, is actually to acquiesce to the current state of affairs while seeming to care. Is that your intention?

It is hard to come to a position on something, I know, but always remaining on the fence represents essentially withdrawing your influence on the issue.

It's safe, but it's useless. Politicians do this often.
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